A* boundry introduction into AS/A2 levels

What do you think? Good or bad idea?

Alot of people I know aren't too happy about it, because they know if they get an A (by the skin of their teeth), to a University, it could be 100%.

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Originally Posted by Xarea

What do you think? Good or bad idea?

Alot of people I know aren't too happy about it, because they know if they get an A (by the skin of their teeth), to a University, it could be 100%.

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Well to be honest the number of students achieving A grades was steadily increasing and another indicator was needed for the more competitive universities/courses to differentiate between those who are "good" and those who are "exceptional".

Saying that, it was a null point for a certain duo of universities because they would ask for specific UMS marks anyway... so it was clear where you stood compared to everyone else.

Any university which does not ask for specifically request individual UMS marks (for each module) will not assume that an A is 100%. In fact, your friends are kidding themselves if they think that's the case. An A is simply seen as 80% upwards... but the 90% A* splits that large boundary in half, which is a great idea.

Besides, another grade boundary is likely to drive the successful to be even more successful. If I was yet to do my A-levels, I'd relish the idea. Even now, it sounds fun and from an admissions/access POV potentially very useful.

I think it's utterly pointless because the marks are printed on the certificates for AS and A levels anyway.

don't most univiersities do UCAS Points now anyway?
hmmmmmmmmmm i guess its a good idea, i'm last year not to get the chance for a* which is quite annoying tbh.

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Originally Posted by Seany

don't most univiersities do UCAS Points now anyway?
hmmmmmmmmmm i guess its a good idea, i'm last year not to get the chance for a* which is quite annoying tbh.

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Not the top 20 or so. You can get UCAS points from so many things... they really are not clear to the institutions.

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Originally Posted by Barmi

Not the top 20 or so. You can get UCAS points from so many things... they really are not clear to the institutions.

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Oh I see :O

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Originally Posted by DieselShaq

I think it's utterly pointless because the marks are printed on the certificates for AS and A levels anyway.

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No they're not. For results, yes the marks are printed. But for the actual certificates that you get several months after the results, the subject and grade are just printed. This is the certificate that you'll take job interviews and what not, and as proof to universities etc.

I think the idea is good personally. Firstly, you can't get an A* at AS Level in the new system anyway. You can only get it after completing the full a level. To get it you need an average of 270/300 on the 3 A2 units and 480/600 overall. Apart from maths (has to be different :P) which you need 180/200 average on C3 and C4 and 480/600 overall. This is because of the choice of applied modules.. and the argument that decision is easier than statistics etc.

As Barmi said, number of A grades is increasing year on year (possiblly due to improvement on teaching, more past papers available?) although exam boards set grade boundaries to ensure a certain number of people get A's etc. so it is actually them who are increasing the number of A grades.

The new system will distinguish between the good candidates and the exceptional candidates. Because alot of people were scoring very highly on the AS units (easier than A2) and then still getting an A overall with not so good scores on the A2 units. Having the A* will show that the candidate has understood their subject well by getting 90% on their A2 units which are alot harder than AS.

Although at the minute Oxbridge, and other Universities have said it will not be changing it's offers yet, I think that in the near future top universities will use the A* grade as an indicator when there are a high number of applications per a place and something needs to be distuingished to choose the better candidate. I know at the minute that Cambridge do ask for module scores on the UCAS.. where as others don't but I am sure that more Uni's will also start asking for module scores too.

So, I personally think its a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Barmi

Not the top 20 or so. You can get UCAS points from so many things... they really are not clear to the institutions.

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Originally Posted by Seany

don't most univiersities do UCAS Points now anyway?
hmmmmmmmmmm i guess its a good idea, i'm last year not to get the chance for a* which is quite annoying tbh.

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From my own and friends experiences, most go by UCAS points. (but state which subjects/ qualifications are not valid)

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Originally Posted by JackBuddy

From my own and friends experiences, most go by UCAS points. (but state which subjects/ qualifications are not valid)

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It probably depends on the course as well then. :eusa_doh:

For the most competitive academic courses at the most competitive institutions, it's likely they will want specific grades as opposed to UCAS points. (For example, any of the universities I looked at to study Law required specific grades.)

On topic: I would have loved an A* A-level. Shameeeeeeeeee. :(

good and bad idea. what tohers have said for good idea is what i would say.

only problem i see with it is that those people, including myself, who have done/aer currently doing A2s, theyll appear less favourable to someone who has an A* a level, even though they could have had that A* on the CV.

i dont really think courses will change there requirements tbh, too much effort :P

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Originally Posted by kk.

good and bad idea. what tohers have said for good idea is what i would say.

only problem i see with it is that those people, including myself, who have done/aer currently doing A2s, theyll appear less favourable to someone who has an A* a level, even though they could have had that A* on the CV.

i dont really think courses will change there requirements tbh, too much effort :P

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For the purposes of your immediate progression, it doesn't matter. Employers and universities are aware that people are not in the position to attain the A* grade yet. When you have your degree, your A-levels are of far less importance to employers.

As to your second point: when admissions offices are receiving more applications than they can reasonably handle, upping the course requirements is negligible effort. Many institutions change their course requirements often anyway (so it's important to be looking at the most up-to-date prospectus).

but if you went straight from a levels its a different matter. or in about 20 years time when people dont know which year it changed and two people had the same degree course and were trying to differentiate it.

As for universities, i think it will be a while until they change it because, well, it means changing the UCAS system for starters, it sounds stupid saying i need A*AB lol, stupid i know but meh. I think they wont change the prospectuses too soon, ie the grades. Proabbly just offer them higher requirements on UCAS.

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Originally Posted by kk.

but if you went straight from a levels its a different matter. or in about 20 years time when people dont know which year it changed and two people had the same degree course and were trying to differentiate it.

As for universities, i think it will be a while until they change it because, well, it means changing the UCAS system for starters, it sounds stupid saying i need A*AB lol, stupid i know but meh. I think they wont change the prospectuses too soon, ie the grades. Proabbly just offer them higher requirements on UCAS.

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Taking the last comment first, you wouldn't get given an offer of A*AB; it's illogical. A*AA maybe. 'A while' is relative. Personally I think it will only be a couple of years after the first A* grades are given out.

If you're going straight into work from your A-levels you have nothing to worry about because nobody else will have the new grade yet. And if you're going straight into work with an A* grade one may question why you're not going to university. And as for 20 years in the future... well, your A-levels will be irrelevant then. Chances are we'll have a different system of assessment anyway, and employers will be looking at your degree and employment experience from then on.

ok well it seems were not going to reach an agreement :P.

a lot of what i said could jsut be reworded to work, so in 5 years time etc. and not everyone goes to uni just because they do well in there a levels.why would you say A*AB is illogical anyway? you can get offers of AAB and maybe they would prefer it if you had an A* in a chosen subject. Say doing mathematics, they would want an A* in it.

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Originally Posted by kk.

ok well it seems were not going to reach an agreement :P.

a lot of what i said could jsut be reworded to work, so in 5 years time etc. and not everyone goes to uni just because they do well in there a levels.why would you say A*AB is illogical anyway? you can get offers of AAB and maybe they would prefer it if you had an A* in a chosen subject. Say doing mathematics, they would want an A* in it.

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No, I don't think we are. :D Haha!

A*AB is almost equivalent to asking for ABC now. From any university that asks for specific grades, find me one that asks for ABC. Making offers over a grade range of 3 shows no consistency.

If you are a student with A grades going straight into work, I don't think you have to worry about A* students coming and competing for the same job. First, you have the head-start. You can immediately start working and gaining experience, which is more valuable on a job application than one grade at A-level. Secondly, the typical A* student is likely to go to university.

I am not threatened by the new grade in the slightest.

yeh but as i said, the A* could be just a way to make sure they are designed for that specific course. And ABC, 300 points on UCAS. although someone said you can get points from anywhere, they do sometimes say, like for one of mine (for loughborough uni, top 10 sometimes) from 3 subjects at A level or 2 a level and 2 as.

they dont worry me, its just some implications that might occur. Like what im having now with my a levels. A lot of new courses have replaced old ones with this years year 12, so say i wanted to re-do something from this year next year, id have to self teach it >:[ annoying but maybe necessary

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Originally Posted by Barmi

It probably depends on the course as well then. :eusa_doh:

For the most competitive academic courses at the most competitive institutions, it's likely they will want specific grades as opposed to UCAS points. (For example, any of the universities I looked at to study Law required specific grades.)

On topic: I would have loved an A* A-level. Shameeeeeeeeee. :(

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Yeah, that's kinda what I mean.

Bournemouth wanted 3 B's so people just call that 300 UCAS points if ya catch ma drift G.

most unis are ignoring it and still going by the old rules.

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Originally Posted by JackBuddy

Yeah, that's kinda what I mean.

Bournemouth wanted 3 B's so people just call that 300 UCAS points if ya catch ma drift G.

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Ahhh, I get ya dude.

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Originally Posted by kk.

yeh but as i said, the A* could be just a way to make sure they are designed for that specific course. And ABC, 300 points on UCAS. although someone said you can get points from anywhere, they do sometimes say, like for one of mine (for loughborough uni, top 10 sometimes) from 3 subjects at A level or 2 a level and 2 as.

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ABC might be the equivalent to 300 UCAS points, but asking for 300 UCAS points is not identically equivalent to asking for an A, B and C. And for the universities that ask for grades (I'm ignoring UCAS points offers here), an ABC wouldn't happen – hence why I doubt an A*AB would happen.

Needless to say, I'm interested to see what UCAS will do with this A*. If there are more points involved, I could definitely see it helping those who are stronger in one particular subject to reach their required tariff points.

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Originally Posted by Technologic

most unis are ignoring it and still going by the old rules.

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Most universities are not ignoring it. Most universities are watching it closely and studying how well it reflects. They cannot immediately incorporate it until they have studied how it works in practice.

2 of the universities I've applied at for this year already upped their 2010 entry requirements to A*AA. Only for competitive subjects like law, economics and medicine though. I don't care because it doesn't affect me. I do feel sorry for people who it does affect though because it essentially means all grade requirements will be raised e.g. AAB to AAA and so on.

Well something was needed to recreate the distinction between elite and not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7946675.stm

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Originally Posted by BBC News

School-leavers will need to get at least an A* and two A grades in their A-levels from next year if they want to study at Cambridge University.

The change to the standard offer from AAA is subject to review but may be increased to more than one A* for science subjects within a few years.

Cambridge believes that, contrary to the popular view, the move favours state school over private pupils.

The A* grade will be awarded for the first time in 2010 for marks over 90%.
The proportion of A-level entries awarded an A grade last year was almost 26% on average across all subjects.

The more prestigious universities have been saying for some time that they find it hard to distinguish between the best candidates.

Last year Cambridge had so many applicants with at least three As that it had to reject more than 5,400 of them.

Unit marks
So as well as there being more stretching questions in the A-level exams, candidates who obtain the highest marks will be awarded an A* - as is already the case at GCSE level.

Last October the National Committee for Educational Excellence recommended that universities ignore the A* grade for the first few years after its introduction.

Its reasoning was that most offers are made on the basis of students' predicted grades, and there was a lack of reliable data on those.

The general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, John Dunford, said: "We are disappointed that Cambridge has gone down this route, especially since other universities are likely to follow.

"With access to module grades and the new extended project, universities should have enough information, and information which is more precise than the A* grade, that allows them to discriminate between the best candidates.
"The inevitable consequence is that it will devalue A and B grades and increase stress and anxiety among bright 17 and 18 year-olds."

But the head of Cambridge's outreach working group, Churchill College senior tutor Richard Partington, told BBC News he did not feel it was premature to move straight away to using the new A*.

"The reason we are not jumping the gun is that we have been gathering marks from AS and A2, so we have been able to look at what would have happened, had we been able to use A* last year," he said.

"It seems clear that it's perfectly safe."

Some Cambridge colleges have used students' actual marks from their A2 units - the second part of the A-level.

But Mr Partington said this was a relatively complex thing to do as the marks were not issued by the admissions service, Ucas. Instead they had to be obtained from applicants' schools.

The A* on the other hand would be readily available, allowing the colleges to clarify and standardise their offer.

Widening access
Mr Partington said experience had not suggested that it was applicants from the independent sector who were more likely to have the higher marks.

The effect of A*AA "looks neutral".

"If we were to move perhaps in the sciences to using more than one A* there might be a widening participation benefit: there may be more state school students," he said.

"But the syllabuses are also changing so we can't be sure."

He stressed that there would be a genuine review of the use of A* that could result in a reversion to the present system.

Cambridge's admissions director, Dr Geoff Parks, said: "It's important to recognise that the usual checks and balances will be in place to ensure that all Cambridge applicants will be given careful, detailed consideration and that this decision won't disadvantage students from any one given background over another."

Colleges continued to have the discretion to make non-standard offers where appropriate, he said.

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Realistically it makes no difference to the students; they would all have above 90% in at least one of their subjects anyway... it just makes the job a little easier for admissions staff.