http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15688513
Finally. The bloody extremists should either quieten down or leave the country.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15688513
Finally. The bloody extremists should either quieten down or leave the country.
Good idea. They should be banned, so disrespectful..
makes me so mad, they just want to take over and make it there country!!
Deport those idiots.
probably the same ******s that burnt our police cars during the riots...
Waits for Dan to post *
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Thank god, I can't believe these people can't show an ounce of respect.
The individuals are clearly stupid and mentally disturbed. I think they have the right to protest, but they're destroying symbols like the Poppy and protesting on days that have barely anything to do with the cause they're supporting. If they want to moan about the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, do it another day - not one that still emcompasses two World Wars which gave them the freedom to protest.
What day they choose to protest, what they choose to protest about, what they choose to use as a symbol of their protest and what we think of their protest - none of this matters because the whole point in freedom of speech and freedom of expression is freedom. We have freedom of speech and freedom of expression (or we used to have) in order to protect unpopular speech because popular speech doesn't need protecting.
As much as I disagree with the protestors, they should have that right always in a free society.
Perhaps I would have agreed with you here a few years ago, but this is like becoming a UKIP MP and voting against EU membership. What's the point if you're going to get UK citizenship if you're then going to moan about the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
UKIP is a libertarian party (or with libertarian elements within) - now as a conservative I disagree with what these people say and believe that as they are wrong, but as a libertarian also I believe that they should be debated and proved wrong but under no circumstances should they be silenced by force. As for British citizenship - I care not for peoples political opinions who arrive on these shores just as I care not for the colour of their skin, I do however care about the culture of the numbers who arrive which in turn prevents them integrating into British society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
Why don't we simply invite them onto Question Time and then we can all rationally debate their points and come to our own conclusions? isn't that much more grown up and sensible rather than having the government decide what we all think or should think?
I don't want to silence these protestors by force just as I would never want to silence EU federalists, left wingers, the green movement etc by force.Quote:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
I'm amazed they didn't give up when they were questioned on that programme Jordan posted (I think it was him at least). They got mocked by the Muslim community and virtually all sides were against their protest. That isn't to say everyone agreed the protest should be banned, they just thought the protest was senseless and purely ignorant because 11/11/11 is about remembering all who have died, and that includes those who were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq wars on both sides. To protest about it is like saying no-one should be remembered. They should be openly mocked and convinced their actions are irrational, rather than outright banned as that only adds fuel to the fire, rather than puts it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Interesting analogy. What do you think would happen if the Koran was burned in front of the Taliban or Al Qaeda? In this country they are only banned. Your freedom speech goes to rediculous lengths. What about the freedom of the majority of people in this country who feel it is downright disrepectful and want the FREEDOM to participate in the remembrance day activities without harrassment from these idiots. There is nothing stopping them protesting in a country where somebody cared. They would probably still get media attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Because what I like about this country is the fact that we have ancient civil liberties which gurantee our freedom before they were subverted, thats why I defend them constantly from the Bill of Rights to the Magna Carta, to habeas corpus - if the time ever comes I ultimately die to defend those values, not a sovereign or a flag because those values are above everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
..and thats why your analogy with other despotic regimes is wrong, interestingly you are suggesting we be intolerant like they are.
It is not intolerant of us, it is respecting the rights of those participating not to have to put up with them and if they did burn the Koran in front of extremists that they would probably be executed. The majority of the people in this country are absolutely outraged by the poppy burning. Interestingly though you would deny the right for women to have abortions or gays to marry in church. You have a very funny idea of freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
So true.. +repQuote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
I'm not exactly sure what I'd achieve in burning the koran other than being shanked anyway..
I think it should be upto the courts who have partly a mindset like this one, as well as one to preserve the ethics and best interests of society as a whole to determine if the ideas associated with their protests are to be outlawed or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Because you don't have a right not to be offended, thats why we can't phone the police up and have people arrested who have an argument with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
Or maybe you would welcome this suggestion?
With abortions, this involves the killing of an innocent human being - so no, thats a breach of individual liberties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
On gay marriage, of course I do - provided the Church wishes to allow it (freedom, yeah?).
http://i.imgur.com/Qah0G.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Marriage shouldn't really be dependent on the church (Or god...)
I would post a picture of an aborted child in response, but I doubt i'd be allowed because its clear what is being destroyed is not 'a bundle of cells'.
We are talking about human beings here and not animals or trees, but if your so keen on abortion why don't you go on Google for around an hour and just have a look at the abortion methods (such as cracking open a skull with a pair of metal grippers and then sucking out the 'fetus' which has human DNA and human functions) along with how abortions are performed (for example abortion doctors do not refer to the body parts because that would make it plain as to what they are doing, instead they refer to body parts as 'a' and 'b' etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
Oh and you can also read accounts of how babies (oh sorry I forgot my Latin, a fetus) are pulled out screaming and tossed in the bin and left to die.
Agreed, or the government - so remove both out of marriage and let Churches/places of registery decide what they want to call 'marriage'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippie
Well actually you can if they are being downright offensive. It is called breach of the peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
But you believe in capital punishment? Also you are far too melodramatic by calling an embryo or unformed feotus 'an innocent human being'. Do you believe in vascetomy or sterilisation because they with your definition sperm or ova could be called 'innocent human beings'. Do you believe that a gay person has the right to be married. No I don't think you do. It would be fair enough if you said that you believed in some things not others but blanketing in 'freedom' as you do is bizarre as it is only freedom when it suits you.Quote:
With abortions, this involves the killing of an innocent human being - so no, thats a breach of individual liberties.
On gay marriage, of course I do - provided the Church wishes to allow it (freedom, yeah?).
But to many this poppy burning may not offend them, therefore why is it being banned? you just cannot accept the fact that if people have controversial opinions that if you disagree with them you should debate them rather than silence them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
The views of EU federalists anger me (or offend if you like) who argue this country ought to be abolished, should I be able to silence them?
Before you start, i'm against the killing of the innocent - not the guilty. Aborted children have not committed a crime, have not been given a trial by jury, have not been given a defence and have not been given an appeal - that is the difference between abortion and the death penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
I'm afraid they are human beings, the same species - they are a person because they are fertilised, unlike sperm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
I do, I believe people should be allowed to sign a contract between themselves and call it what they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
The cases are very clear, I explained gay marriage above for example but you've just ignored it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
By the way, as a moderator, mind if I post a picture of an aborted 'fetus'? if its only a bunch of cells then it surely won't matter?
I am aware it's not exactly pretty but:Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
a) It's safer than a metal hanger
b) They don't refer to the exact parts for everyone's benefit and technical correctness (Not fully formed etc.)
Well, I agree, but removing government from the equation would probably take a bit longer because of all the legal ties (E.g. taxes when married etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
In the good old days, Dan when freedom what freedom under the magna carta etc etc etc they would have been executed for treason. I don't know where you get all this from as people used to be executed for their religion or even looking the wrong way. What you are after is just downright anarchy. That's my view.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Well interestingly you are saying that a guilty man/woman (which may later to have been proved a miscarriage of justice) has no rights but an embryo or feotus which has no rights in law and is not considered to be a human being in law until it is born should have full rights?Quote:
Before you start, i'm against the killing of the innocent - not the guilty. Aborted children have not committed a crime, have not been given a trial by jury, have not been given a defence and have not been given an appeal - that is the difference between abortion and the death penalty.
I'm afraid they are human beings, the same species - they are a person because they are fertilised, unlike sperm.
Also their legal status is no different to ova or sperm.
You have to remember the abortion laws only allow it to a certain number of weeks in this country and a lot these pictures are produced by christian fundamentalists are of very late abortions in different countries. Obviously they would be very distressing. You should therefore be very careful of what you are posting.Quote:
By the way, as a moderator, mind if I post a picture of an aborted 'fetus'? if its only a bunch of cells then it surely won't matter?
Actually they refer to the parts because its uncomfortable to describe exactly what they are doing, as they would in any other operation - we know its a human being yet we pretend its not for our own comfort. It has been the same throughout history whenever somebody wishes to justify killing on baseless grounds; they [usually sinister regimes] dehumanise it in order to kill it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
Read accounts I urge you, I supported abortion until I could no longer deny to myself (after weeks of studying the topic) that what is within the womb is not a 'fetus', its a child - hence why when a woman is willingly pregnant she refers to her 'baby'.
Not long at all, remove taxation from marriage at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
I'm not looking for anarchy at all, I trust the people and the individual; the shop keepers knows how to run his butchers best, not mandarins in Whitehall or Brussels. The teacher knows best how to teach, not the mandarins in Whitehall or Brussels - and so forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
With the poppy burning i'd ask again, why can't I silence the offensive views of EU federalists by force?
Indeed it should have, but the point on a miscarriage of justice is moot - thats another argument against the death penalty, not against abortion - the deal is simple, the death penalty punishes the guilty after a trial by jury, a defence hearing and an appeal whereas abortion punishes the innocent with none of the above in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
Which is what i'm disputing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
Up to what week can I can post pictures of the 'bundle of cells' then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
What offensive views? Where do they go marching and burning poppies calling us infidels and calling british soldiers unmentionable things? In that case I would support banning Brian Hitchens and Nick Griffin whose views I find offensive. You would support banning all spokesmen of the major parties as you find their views offensive. This not an argument with any substance.Quote:
I'm not looking for anarchy at all, I trust the people and the individual; the shop keepers knows how to run his butchers best, not mandarins in Whitehall or Brussels. The teacher knows best how to teach, not the mandarins in Whitehall or Brussels - and so forth.
With the poppy burning i'd ask again, why can't I silence the offensive views of EU federalists by force?
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It is only a problem that a woman has and a very emotive subject which with respect, I do not believe a man would understand, and I prefer to believe the legal definition and until this has been disproven rather than the emotional one that labels an embryo or fetus as a human being from conception. I only agree with abortion to the limits of the law within the UK.Quote:
Indeed it should have, but the point on a miscarriage of justice is moot - thats another argument against the death penalty, not against abortion - the deal is simple, the death penalty punishes the guilty after a trial by jury, a defence hearing and an appeal whereas abortion punishes the innocent with none of the above in place.
Which is what i'm disputing.
It is not up to me to dictate what you post. You can post any pictures you like provided they comply with the rules remembering this is a habbo fansite.Quote:
Up to what week can I can post pictures of the 'bundle of cells' then?
That is the end of that one, until next year when they reform.
Good decision to ban them though by Theresa May.
And EU federalists go around saying how our nation is nothing, has no future and that we should submit to a European superstate - many may find that offensive, if not downright totalitarian. So why is it that we can ban one viewpoint, but not the other viewpoint? All your argument hands upon is 'its offensive and unmentionable' - the same can be said for many other opinions, so again, why not ban them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
No I wouldn't because banning speech or expression is what i'm arguing against here, so under no circumstances would I support banning any speech or any expression from any group or individual. I am the biggest defender of our armed forces and their history on this forum, yet as fond as I am of the armed forces and our military I cannot under any circumstances agree to ban free speech and expression. [/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
You are doing it again, pretending it is not a human being when it is one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
You dehumanise it in order to kill it.
I'm asking for clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
They could wear the White Poppies as a sign of remembering those who died in the conflict, and to put an end to current wars. It seems to be getting more recognisition lately than the Poppy Burner brigade.
Why are these ********s in our country? If this was 50 years ago, they'd be off to hospital or the morgue if they did something like this..
I actually hate religion. It's all a load of bul****
Thank goodness,disrespectful ********s
Well if you can't see the difference then we will have to agree to disagree because there is a chasm between the these groups. You may find their views offensive but they do not attack and verbally abuse a vast proportion of our population. That is the difference - different opinons as opposed to personal attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I find this comment offensive, Dan and no I don't want you banned. I don't pretend anything. It is not a human being as classified by the law and I will not be oppressed by emotional blackmail by those who seek to say it is. These groups should try to get the definition changed instead of trying to harrass ordinary people.Quote:
You are doing it again, pretending it is not a human being when it is one.
You dehumanise it in order to kill it.
The rules clarify what is suitable and appropropriate for posting on the forum image wise remembering we have younger members.Quote:
I'm asking for clarification.
For years we (the right wing) been called little Englanders, xenophobes and racists by the establishment for warning of the Euro and the European Union and what they would lead to. We took it on the chin mainly because we had to, but because many of us have a deep deep respect for the liberty of free speech. All words are just that, words. Any law or government who seemingly claim to protect people from having their feelings hurt are acting way out of their mandate and should be opposed by anybody who approves of free thinking, free thought and free expression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
In the words of Volitare "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it".
A politicians' response, i'm not talking about the law as it stands - I am talking about what it [a child with human DNA] is, a human being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
Thats ridiculous and soooo disrespectful. I am all for them being banned.
But is isn't Dan. This is just your opinion not backed by any legal precedent. End of.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
The law doesn't mean anything, we all know of past regimes which ran euthanasia programmes along the same lines as we do of abortion today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catzsy
'They're not human'
Not a dramatic, subjective post or anything. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-