Should prisoners have a right to vote? [ENDS 10/06/2012]

Should prisoners have a right to vote?
Ends: 10/06/2012

An interesting topic, propping up between the UK and Europe recently. Although recently the European Court of Human Rights declared that governments can decide, its previous stance was very different. The Court said that under European law prisoners should have a right to vote- as basic human right for anyone.

However, the UK ignored such laws and continued to disallow this right to prisoners. Their claim was that if one had convicted a crime, some rights should be removed, including the right to vote.

Tensions over this law still continue with a conflict over the law and there may be a major constitutional clash in the near future.

Now it's up to decide. Should prisoners in the UK or any other country for that matter have this right or not. Debate away!

No, Because, if they can't stay out of trouble, then they should not be able to vote.

But it may influence them, if you have a politician who wants stricter laws they will want their opinions heard.

Voting isn't a human right, it's a legal right. The EU forgets its place and often mistakes trivial things as serious things. Prisoners should not be given the right to vote, they relinquished any such right when they broke the law and therefore removed the right of another. Voting is the last thing that is on their mind, and their views do not "mimic or represent to view of honest and reasonable people" - something British Criminal Law is based on. Just because half of Europe uses dreadful civil law doesn't mean the UK should follow through with it too, when our legal system is probably more fairer than theirs.

Having the right to vote does not effect a prisoner as a human being, it doesn't hinder their right to live which is the basic foundation of human rights, things that directly effect you as a human.

It's such a mute argument that keeps being dragged up by the ECHR, when prisoners have never needed to vote and never will. When they are either acquitted or released and free then they can be allowed to vote, because they are then seen as reasonable, honest people and may have views to reflect such basic demands of a voter or citizen. Until then they deserve such a miniscule punishment on their heads - the right to vote taken away from them. It's not a human right, and never will be - like this stupid belief that the internet should become a human right.

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Originally Posted by Sublayer

But it may influence them, if you have a politician who wants stricter laws they will want their opinions heard.

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I'd rather hear from an ex-convict who has served their time and can better reflect the thoughts of prisoners. Ex-convicts can and should always be allowed to vote, they can what should be fair for a prisoner and have probably learnt from their time in prison.

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Originally Posted by Logandyer45

No, Because, if they can't stay out of trouble, then they should not be able to vote.

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Hypothetically the government puts 99% of the population in jail for no reason, who gets to vote them out of office?

nope they lost their rights when they committed the crime

People keep saying they lose their right when they commit the crime but no-one has actually explained why.

If they can't abide by the laws and be a productive member of society then I don't see why they should have the right to change the country.

They pissed away their right to vote when they done whatever they did.

What about the people in jail for minor offences then? What about political activists who are put in for opposing the government (albeit in an illegal fashion).


Although I do think that many laws should not include the right for prisoners to vote, when it comes to more minor ones (especially concerning prison or the way crimes are dealt with), prisoners should perhaps have MORE of a right to vote as they have been through that system.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

People keep saying they lose their right when they commit the crime but no-one has actually explained why.

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Punishment, as I stated in the other thread and which I will reply to soon. The problem is, you keep confusing prison as a holding cell as opposed to a place of punishment, the loss of your voting rights is one method used in this country to punish criminals. If somebody does something considered to be evil or disruptive to others liberty or property then you must have a system in place to punish those who step out of line so that they fear doing so again - that is what punishment entails.

On the more general issue - we should be out the ECHR.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Hypothetically the government puts 99% of the population in jail for no reason, who gets to vote them out of office?

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A government such as that would be de facto dictatorial anyway by putting nearly everybody in prison, so even if we could vote - they'd simply rig it.

There is not right on the voting, but if they can't stay out of trouble, they shouldn't be able to vote.

tbh I think they should be allowed to vote, I know they've done wrong and they shouldn't but I think if prisoners can vote then the little parties, like the green Party, BNP and UKIP might have a chance in winning or coming close

Just my opinion

But then, by a lot of your arguments, ex-cons shouldn't have the right to vote either?

Ex-Cons? Is that something with the UK voting system?

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Originally Posted by Logandyer45

No, Because, if they can't stay out of trouble, then they should not be able to vote.

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wrong

THEY SHOULD BECAUSE VOTING IS THE WAY OF LIFE :)

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Originally Posted by Logandyer45

Ex-Cons? Is that something with the UK voting system?

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ex cons is an abbreviation for ex convict, as in people who committed a crime and did their time in jail and have been released (and it's a worldwide term lol)

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Originally Posted by Andii

wrong

THEY SHOULD BECAUSE VOTING IS THE WAY OF LIFE :)

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Wrong... Voting is not a way of the life. I don't think the people give a crap if you vote or not.

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Originally Posted by lawrawrrr

ex cons is an abbreviation for ex convict, as in people who committed a crime and did their time in jail and have been released (and it's a worldwide term lol)

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Ex-Cons get to vote since they can accutally go to the voting poll.

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Originally Posted by Logandyer45

Wrong... Voting is not a way of the life. I don't think the people give a crap if you vote or not.

Ex-Cons get to vote since they can accutally go to the voting poll.

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I know that... but what my original point was: if everyone's saying that convicts don't have the right to vote because they broke the law, why should ex cons have different rules? They still broke the law!

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Originally Posted by Logandyer45

Wrong... Voting is not a way of the life. I don't think the people give a crap if you vote or not.

Ex-Cons get to vote since they can accutally go to the voting poll.

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well say you got put in prison for something you didn't do and you did care about voting how would that make you feel??? it's wrong to not let people who are in and have been in jail not to vote

everyone should have their own say thats what most campaigns are about

Once you break the law, you don't deserve to have a say in anything to do with the law IMO. You've given up all your legal rights by committing the act, so you deserve punishment. Your human rights need to remain but legal rights don't - so you should not have any say in voting at all. As for ex-cons, they've served their punishment so they have every right to vote again.

As for the cases of people unfairly put in prison, it's just an unfortunate occurrence. I'd imagine it be highly unlikely though.

+ Yes, even minor crimes should mean you do not get the right to vote. You have still broken the law, so you don't deserve any say in it.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Punishment, as I stated in the other thread and which I will reply to soon. The problem is, you keep confusing prison as a holding cell as opposed to a place of punishment, the loss of your voting rights is one method used in this country to punish criminals. If somebody does something considered to be evil or disruptive to others liberty or property then you must have a system in place to punish those who step out of line so that they fear doing so again - that is what punishment entails.

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Yet more words that don't explain why. Punishment is a meaningless concept.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

People keep saying they lose their right when they commit the crime but no-one has actually explained why.

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They lose many fundamental human rights like freedom of expression, liberty, belief (incl. freedom of thought) when in prison. Considering voting is a legal right and not a human right, it is safe to say they can live without voting when they do not need it to live a fulfilled and safe life. That's a short-hard explanation.

Imprisonment breaches many obvious human rights that something as small and meaningless to a convict like voting is something they can do without and do not require when in prison. Besides, if the Government want those who have been through the prison system to vote, then it's best to ask ex-convicts and get their vote in the elections when they are free to live their human rights, rather than get a false represenation from someone in prison who hasn't acted in accordance with honest, reasonable people - the basic principles of being a decent human being in criminal law.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Yet more words that don't explain why. Punishment is a meaningless concept.

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Then you completely surrender to evil and bad people in relation to crime even to school discipline. If you do not believe a child should be punished (ie, something bad occurs to them to teach them not to do that again) then you condemn yourself and your fellow subjects to anarchy much in the same way that you claim that a thief ought to not be punished (ie, something bad occurs to them to teach them not to do it again) when he commits a crime.

If you claim punishment does not exist, as I have given numerous examples - then frankly you're talking drivel. To sit there and simply dismiss punishment as 'a meaningless concept' shows to me you think we ought to completely give up on the notion of law and order in society, in which any case why even continue in a debate which is built around to punish or not to punish?

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

They lose many fundamental human rights like freedom of expression, liberty, belief (incl. freedom of thought) when in prison. Considering voting is a legal right and not a human right, it is safe to say they can live without voting when they do not need it to live a fulfilled and safe life. That's a short-hard explanation.

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It is meaningless to even attempt to address his concerns, he states above he does not believe in the concept of punishment which you correctly explain in depth providing examples of legal punishments - i'm afraid he is engaged in a school of 'thought' which comes across to me as having roots in sociology and which consquentley holds as much intellectual weight as I would if I claimed I no longer believed in the existence of the sun, the stars or the moon.

Indeed, in a previous debate he simply labelled punishment as 'revenge' from what I recall - perhaps it is 'revenge' from the point of view of the criminal, but then it would be wouldn't it? the rest of the civilised world takes the right view, that when you do something wrong you are punished (and quite rightly) for it.

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Originally Posted by lawrawrrr

I know that... but what my original point was: if everyone's saying that convicts don't have the right to vote because they broke the law, why should ex cons have different rules? They still broke the law!

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Correct the broke the law, but they have did their debt to society. Therefore, they have all the rights a normal person would have.

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Originally Posted by Andii

well say you got put in prison for something you didn't do and you did care about voting how would that make you feel??? it's wrong to not let people who are in and have been in jail not to vote
That's why they run you thru court. If you know you didn't do what you are accused of, fight it thru the court of law. Hire the best attorney money can get.
everyone should have their own say thats what most campaigns are about

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Originally Posted by Intersocial

Once you break the law, you don't deserve to have a say in anything to do with the law IMO. You've given up all your legal rights by committing the act, so you deserve punishment. Your human rights need to remain but legal rights don't - so you should not have any say in voting at all. As for ex-cons, they've served their punishment so they have every right to vote again.

As for the cases of people unfairly put in prison, it's just an unfortunate occurrence. I'd imagine it be highly unlikely though.

+ Yes, even minor crimes should mean you do not get the right to vote. You have still broken the law, so you don't deserve any say in it.

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You are 100% correct. Once you give up your rights, there is no getting them back until you did your time.

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Originally Posted by Intersocial

Once you break the law, you don't deserve to have a say in anything to do with the law IMO. You've given up all your legal rights by committing the act, so you deserve punishment. Your human rights need to remain but legal rights don't - so you should not have any say in voting at all. As for ex-cons, they've served their punishment so they have every right to vote again.

As for the cases of people unfairly put in prison, it's just an unfortunate occurrence. I'd imagine it be highly unlikely though.

+ Yes, even minor crimes should mean you do not get the right to vote. You have still broken the law, so you don't deserve any say in it.

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well thank god your not in charge of anything lol.

That's one of the most stupidest thing's ive heard in my life even i haven't said anything as stupid as that lol. People who think like that are little minded. Everyone deserves to have their say no matter what. well by WHAT YOUR SAYING people who comit a crime should have their tongues cut out or even just killed because they mean nothing to the country no more????

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Originally Posted by Andii

well thank god your not in charge of anything lol.

That's one of the most stupidest thing's ive heard in my life even i haven't said anything as stupid as that lol. People who think like that are little minded. Everyone deserves to have their say no matter what. well by WHAT YOUR SAYING people who comit a crime should have their tongues cut out or even just killed because they mean nothing to the country no more????

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I did clearly state they still have "human rights", so of course I'm not supporting the idea of their tongues being cut out or what ever. And at this moment, I don't know where I stand in regards to the death penalty.

Under the eyes of the law their say in anything legal (e.g. Voting) should ultimately be removed. Why do they deserve a chance to have a say in who runs a country when they don't even follow the rules themselves?

It's not "little minded", I suspect it is what the large majority of people think in regards to prisoners voting.

Just thank God you're not in control of this country, if you think "everyone" deserves a chance to vote, then I'd imagine you'd stupidly let 6 year children with no clear grasp on society vote for who they want.

everyone over 18 obviously. and people who live here have the right to say what goes on no matter what they did. even if someone blew up half the world they should still have their vote. theres no big deal with it just tick boxes on who you voted for and no one else knows who you voted for anyway. Why should that matter???

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Originally Posted by Andii

everyone over 18 obviously. and people who live here have the right to say what goes on no matter what they did. even if someone blew up half the world they should still have their vote. theres no big deal with it just tick boxes on who you voted for and no one else knows who you voted for anyway. Why should that matter???

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Bold = Oh my days. If someone blew up half the world they should absolutely not get a say because they cannot OBEY THE RULES THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THE UN SET. Refusal to obide by the law = disobeying what the government has set = they're not going to obey any other political party are they? There's no point in them voting if their actions aren't going to be any different under another political party. Besides, due to the UK not actually having a life-long prison sentence (life is only like 20 years here I believe), there is a likelihood they will be able to vote once they've served their time.

And it may not seem a big deal to you "ticking a box", but for the large majority of people it is. I'm pretty sure the lib-con coalition was a "big deal" to quite a large number of people.

Well if it is such a big deal for them and they reall care a lot about the country ten they should be looking to know the thoughts of everyone in the country not just people who are outside of prison. Even people in prison care about people they live. They should have the right to vote for the government to make sure that their family is well looked after. People do crimes for different reasons. To help friends save their family or just because they want to. So everyone defo has the right to vote no question about it

I feel that you give up any claim to your legal rights when you commit the act, and that their loss should be part of the punishment. Once your sentance is over, I see no reason why you can't have your voting rights back again. Saying that, I have a bit of a problem with convicted terrorists being allowed to represent my country in government. Why should (ex)IRA men be allowed that privillege :S

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Originally Posted by Red

I feel that you give up any claim to your legal rights when you commit the act, and that their loss should be part of the punishment. Once your sentance is over, I see no reason why you can't have your voting rights back again. Saying that, I have a bit of a problem with convicted terrorists being allowed to represent my country in government. Why should (ex)IRA men be allowed that privillege :S

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ehh because they live here lol. Just because they did wrong and have to spend time away from people they love in a cell and if they drop soap they could be hurt :) doesnt mean they should lose their vote. A vote can change the way of the country and since it's part of the system. Everyone SHOULD BE entitled to their own say no matter what they done. tbh this whole thread is stupid and pointless

So your telling me you would be happy with the likes of Colin Duffy or someone being elected into government? lol At the most I would accept only giving the vote to those who have committed minor crimes but I don't really think murderers/rapists should be allowed any say in the way the country is run.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

ie, something bad occurs to them to teach them not to do it again) when he commits a crime.

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And now you just admitted something which you did not in the other thread which is simply that Punishment is actually just rewording of rehabilitation which you denied even existed in prison.

In which case removing the right to vote certainly does provide a means to rehabilitate them so they do not re-offend however I do not believe that quite justifies removing that very important right to decide who is responsible for your life - even in prison.

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Originally Posted by Red

So your telling me you would be happy with the likes of Colin Duffy or someone being elected into government? lol At the most I would accept only giving the vote to those who have committed minor crimes but I don't really think murderers/rapists should be allowed any say in the way the country is run.

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lmao i mean to vote not to be voted for. . . WAIT WHAT IS THE POINT IN THIS THREAD??? IS IT TO BE VOTED FOR OR TO BE ABLE TO VOTE JUST

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

And now you just admitted something which you did not in the other thread which is simply that Punishment is actually just rewording of rehabilitation which you denied even existed in prison.

In which case removing the right to vote certainly does provide a means to rehabilitate them so they do not re-offend however I do not believe that quite justifies removing that very important right to decide who is responsible for your life - even in prison.

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It's not an important right, if it was they would already have it and desire it so much it would be inhuman for them not to have it. But as it's just some legal right plastered into the fabric of the Human Rights Act 1998, it isn't a basic human right. It's interesting it's mentioned in the Act of Parliament, but is never acted upon. That said, their care will always be looked after no matter who is in office. If they are punished, tortured or harmed in prison then their actual human rights will be breached, therefore the law would be broken and the Government would be committing a criminal act.

Saying they need the right to vote without evidence as to why is just as bad as saying they should not be allowed without explanation.

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Originally Posted by Andii

lmao i mean to vote not to be voted for. . . WAIT WHAT IS THE POINT IN THIS THREAD??? IS IT TO BE VOTED FOR OR TO BE ABLE TO VOTE JUST

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The right to vote :P I'm not sure on the specifics, but I think people who have been in prison can be voted into office. If they manage to get votes then there must be some public confidence so a law would seem unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

It's not an important right, if it was they would already have it

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Clearly Women should never have been given the right to vote and people who are black should be slaves because if they should have proper rights then they'd already have them.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Clearly Women should never have been given the right to vote and people who are black should be slaves because if they should have proper rights then they'd already have them.

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The joys of social change :P Though you could argue that women and minorities could probably of not been given such rights, which is what you're suggesting with what I said, your argument falls flat when there is a huge difference between prisoners and discrimination. Women prior to attempting to vote are innocent and honest people in the eyes of the law, they have not broken the law until they have tried to vote. However, prisoners are completely different - they are in prison for committing a guilty offense (and having a guilty mind) hence their imprisonment, so they should not be given the right to vote because they do not look at society with the eyes of honest, reasonable people - otherwise they would of been found guilty of whatever crime they had committed.

The "right to vote" isn't a human right in the same way as liberty, expression, religion/belief or any other important right, considering more important rights like freedom to express yourself and liberty are taken away when you are in prison.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

And now you just admitted something which you did not in the other thread which is simply that Punishment is actually just rewording of rehabilitation which you denied even existed in prison.

In which case removing the right to vote certainly does provide a means to rehabilitate them so they do not re-offend however I do not believe that quite justifies removing that very important right to decide who is responsible for your life - even in prison.

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That isn't rehabilitation - rehabilitation is the aim to change somebody (which has proven to be impossible) whereas punishment is the aim to scare somebody enough in order to prevent them from doing something bad again - with punishment they haven't changed but they do not act upon their desires/thoughts because they fear the consquences if they do. For example, a naughty child is taught not to punch other children when another child finally turns around and smacks him back - because the child then knows that if he does so again he will be hurt and humiliated. Rehabilitation on the other hand would be the teacher trying to change the actions of the child through talking with him.

Another example would be when regimes crack down on uprisings. When the regime forces everybody (through fear) back into their homes, they still think the same thoughts of the regime - but they don't act upon those thoughts out of fear. Now, would you claim those people are 'rehabilitated'? of course not because they are still the same.

Punishment works, rehabilitation doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Logandyer45

Ex-Cons get to vote since they can accutally go to the voting poll.

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Interesting point that no-one seems to have picked up on - say that prisoners can vote if they can get to the polling stations. Since most prisoners have no freedom of movement this would cut a lot of them out of the voting while allowing lesser criminals (those in open prisons) to retain some sense of society, as is the point of open prisons anyway. It would also satisfy the EU's daft demand that voting be seen as a human right when it's clearly anything but.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Clearly Women should never have been given the right to vote and people who are black should be slaves because if they should have proper rights then they'd already have them.

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While I'm somewhat divided myself on the idea of prisoners voting, this isn't a valid point since criminals have actually done something to bring punishment (or rehabilitation as you put it) upon themselves rather than simply being born a certain way.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

rehabilitation is the aim to change somebody (which has proven to be impossible)

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Pretty sure that is entirely false unless you somehow don't believe in social conditioning and think we're all just *+*FoLLoWiiNG ouR DeSTiiNy*+*

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

That isn't rehabilitation - rehabilitation is the aim to change somebody (which has proven to be impossible) whereas punishment is the aim to scare somebody enough in order to prevent them from doing something bad again - with punishment they haven't changed but they do not act upon their desires/thoughts because they fear the consquences if they do. For example, a naughty child is taught not to punch other children when another child finally turns around and smacks him back - because the child then knows that if he does so again he will be hurt and humiliated. Rehabilitation on the other hand would be the teacher trying to change the actions of the child through talking with him.

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Those are basically the same thing. Punishment just rehabilitates the people who didn't understand the consequences of their actions.