mass shooting in PA while... NRA is calling for more guns

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The well anticipated news conference on the National Riffle Association took place today in Washington, D.C. The Executive Vice President of the organization delivered the usual script of denying any liability while at the same time promoting more carnage. His solution is to put an armed police officer in each school in the country. He said: “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

While he was conducting his propaganda on today, a gunman was walking down the street in Frankstown, PA randomly shooting at people at about 11 a.m. Three men are reported dead including the shooter as well as a female victim. One state trooper was injured by gun fire but the injuries are not life threatening thanks to his bullet proof vest. Two other state troopers were injured by an automobile.

The identity of the shooter is not know at this time nor has the names of his victims been released. Frankstown, PA is located about thirty miles west of Harrisburg which is the state's capital city.

Those who would like some real reforms in the gun laws nationally were prayerfully hoping that Wayne LaPierre would have had a "Come to Jesus" moment following the shooting in Newtown, CT last Friday. But instead he doubled down on the idea of more guns in the hands of more citizens as the answer to the nation's gun problem.

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http://www.examiner.com/article/mass...-for-more-guns

don't think it's already been posted.

fighting fire with fire (especially in schools) is not the right answer, bloody hell! the LAST thing anywhere needs is more weapons in such public areas. i personally doubt anything will change though, but civilians just shouldn't be allowed such high-powered guns.

If the air's full of bullets we're all safe right

£100 on the guy being a 21/12/12 fanatic

I read an article on my phone at work earlier similar to this. Basically claiming if good people had the guns, teachers etc. then the massacre would have been avoided.

The big question is who are these good people? How do you decide? These pro gun people at the moment seem to be acting like you can tell good between bad with ease. So we give teachers guns. What if one teacher actually is a lunatic but acts normal, because many killers, murders, criminals etc. appear to be normal and sane. Imagine then this person goes around killing people, maybe he gets sick of kids at school, we all know how annoying kids can get. He flips and we get a new massacre.

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Originally Posted by peteyt

I read an article on my phone at work earlier similar to this. Basically claiming if good people had the guns, teachers etc. then the massacre would have been avoided.

The big question is who are these good people? How do you decide? These pro gun people at the moment seem to be acting like you can tell good between bad with ease. So we give teachers guns. What if one teacher actually is a lunatic but acts normal, because many killers, murders, criminals etc. appear to be normal and sane. Imagine then this person goes around killing people, maybe he gets sick of kids at school, we all know how annoying kids can get. He flips and we get a new massacre.

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But that is the point, that events such as the Sandybrooks Massacre are unpredictable and will always occur... so the question isn't whether or not they will occur (because they will) the question is; what are we going to do about it? and I fully back the NRA stance that teachers ought to be armed and that 'gun free zones' in schools ought to be abolished and signs instead put up telling criminals that staff are armed to protect children.

In Israel the teachers are armed and there's not a problem, better armed against a madman than not I would think.

No problems in Israel that is the most hilarious thing you have ever said Dan

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

But that is the point, that events such as the Sandybrooks Massacre are unpredictable and will always occur... so the question isn't whether or not they will occur (because they will) the question is; what are we going to do about it? and I fully back the NRA stance that teachers ought to be armed and that 'gun free zones' in schools ought to be abolished and signs instead put up telling criminals that staff are armed to protect children.

In Israel the teachers are armed and there's not a problem, better armed against a madman than not I would think.

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better if a madman isn't armed...

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As White House gun control petitions plead with President Obama for tighter laws, many are taking a good look at tight gun controls in Japan and their low shooting deaths. Not a new thing for Japan, 1600s saw restrictive gun controls ensured to "almost total prohibition of firearms." Today, gun licensing is required and is heavily regulated by Japan's National Police Agency, :

* No-one in Japan shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords, and very few exceptions are allowed.
* The only types of firearms which a Japanese citizen may acquire are rifles or shotguns.
* Sportsmen are permitted to possess rifles or shotguns for hunting and for skeet and trap shooting, but only after submitting to a lengthy licensing procedure.
* Without a license, a Japanese citizen may not even hold a gun in his or her hands.
* Shotguns and rifles for hunting or sports may be possessed upon completion of a licensing procedure that requires a police background check, successful completion of a safety course, passing of shooting, written, and psychological tests, and police verification of secure storage, prior to approval being granted by the police to purchase a firearm.
* Fully automatic weapons are restricted to military and police. Gun owners must take a class once a year and pass a written test.

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http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/339130

pity all of this would never happen in the US. imagine the uproar...

@-:Undertaker:-; that's the responsibility of law enforcement. teachers are only there to teach and offer educational support. not become gun-wielding 'protectors'. it's not their responsibility to make up for the government's lack of control on gun crime, what weapons are allowed and who gets hold of them.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

But that is the point, that events such as the Sandybrooks Massacre are unpredictable and will always occur... so the question isn't whether or not they will occur (because they will) the question is; what are we going to do about it? and I fully back the NRA stance that teachers ought to be armed and that 'gun free zones' in schools ought to be abolished and signs instead put up telling criminals that staff are armed to protect children.

In Israel the teachers are armed and there's not a problem, better armed against a madman than not I would think.

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I think you keep missing the point when it comes to arming people. You assume that everyone has a fair proficiency with guns and reject the idea that some people do not have the ability to kill another, even if in defence.

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

I think you keep missing the point when it comes to arming people. You assume that everyone has a fair proficiency with guns and reject the idea that some people do not have the ability to kill another, even if in defence.

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And he seems to have the view that "if a criminal wants to get a gun, then they will get one whether they are legal or not" which completely ignores opportunists who wouldn't go on school shooting sprees if their dad didn't have a gun in his office cabinet. Not to mention the fact that (admittedly this isn't the case for the us) guns are ridiculously hard to get a hold of (talking about the uk and Dan arguing in another thread that guns should be legalised).

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Originally Posted by The Don

And he seems to have the view that "if a criminal wants to get a gun, then they will get one whether they are legal or not" which completely ignores opportunists who wouldn't go on school shooting sprees if their dad didn't have a gun in his office cabinet. Not to mention the fact that (admittedly this isn't the case for the us) guns are ridiculously hard to get a hold of (talking about the uk and Dan arguing in another thread that guns should be legalised).

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like those who say "guns don't kill people, people do!!" yes, that may be the case, but guns make it HELL OF A LOT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO DO SO WITH SUCH EASY ACCESS. especially ones that are so high-powered, that only law enforcements/military/whatever. should possess them.

someone (not undertaker, as he'll probably say in a free society [even though it is 10000% theoretical], people should be able to possess whatever they desire and the gov't shouldn't regulate what members of society can and should do or something like that) needs to tell me why this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0px-M4gery.jpg

is deemed as an american right for civilians, and not a privilege (even though it is, and should be the latter). legit can't imagine having one of these in my house, and even using it? there's only one purpose weapons possess - to kill.

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Originally Posted by dirrty

like those who say "guns don't kill people, people do!!" yes, that may be the case, but guns make it HELL OF A LOT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO DO SO WITH SUCH EASY ACCESS. especially ones that are so high-powered, that only law enforcements/military/whatever. should possess them.

someone (not undertaker, as he'll probably say in a free society [even though it is 10000% theoretical], people should be able to possess whatever they desire and the gov't shouldn't regulate what members of society can and should do or something like that) needs to tell me why this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0px-M4gery.jpg

is deemed as an american right for civilians, and not a privilege (even though it is, and should be the latter). legit can't imagine having one of these in my house, and even using it? there's only one purpose weapons possess - to kill.

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Everything you've just said sums up my opinion but Dan seems to think that if it doesn't infringe the rights of others then people should automatically be allowed to do whatever they want (except for gays getting married.. hypocrite much?) which is nonsense as there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Contrary to what Dan has previously said, a guns only purpose is to kill. Be it to commit a crime, for self defence, for war. Whatever the purpose, it is used to maim someone/something which is why the public shouldn't be allowed them. People wouldn't need guns for self defence if there weren't criminals armed with them in the first place. And rather than providing guns for self defence, the government should improve the police force if it's resulting in the public having to take matters into their own hands.

Surely madmen are more likely to want to own a gun than a sensible, rational individual? Plus who is to say a "good guy with a gun" would want to use it or even know how to? A good guy with a gun simply doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by The Don

better if a madman isn't armed...

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And what magic fairy wand do you have that will suddenly make this possible?

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Originally Posted by dirrty

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/339130

pity all of this would never happen in the US. imagine the uproar...

@-:Undertaker:-; that's the responsibility of law enforcement. teachers are only there to teach and offer educational support. not become gun-wielding 'protectors'. it's not their responsibility to make up for the government's lack of control on gun crime, what weapons are allowed and who gets hold of them.

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Then you are just sticking your head in the sand. The fact of the matter is that guns exist and we can't uninvent them, and that the US has a gun culture which is there and it exists. So what is up for debate is; how can people best be defended, with or without guns? with guns obviously.

I saw one idea proposed that makes sense - hire an ex-military man in every school as security. It'd not only mean every school has an armed guard who has professional skills, but also that the unemployment problems amongst ex-servicemen disappears.

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

I think you keep missing the point when it comes to arming people. You assume that everyone has a fair proficiency with guns and reject the idea that some people do not have the ability to kill another, even if in defence.

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Where have I suggested that guns don't kill people? the debate is really really really simple. Guns exist, and gun culture exists - what do we do? are we to arm law abiding people against madmen and criminals, or are we only to arm the Police who turn up ten minutes after he's starting shooting off? the choice to be is so blindingly simple it doesn't even warrant a debate.

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Originally Posted by The Don

And he seems to have the view that "if a criminal wants to get a gun, then they will get one whether they are legal or not" which completely ignores opportunists who wouldn't go on school shooting sprees if their dad didn't have a gun in his office cabinet. Not to mention the fact that (admittedly this isn't the case for the us) guns are ridiculously hard to get a hold of (talking about the uk and Dan arguing in another thread that guns should be legalised).

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Who says they couldn't just buy one from the black market like you can here?

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Originally Posted by dirrty

like those who say "guns don't kill people, people do!!" yes, that may be the case, but guns make it HELL OF A LOT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO DO SO WITH SUCH EASY ACCESS. especially ones that are so high-powered, that only law enforcements/military/whatever. should possess them.

someone (not undertaker, as he'll probably say in a free society [even though it is 10000% theoretical], people should be able to possess whatever they desire and the gov't shouldn't regulate what members of society can and should do or something like that) needs to tell me why this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0px-M4gery.jpg

is deemed as an american right for civilians, and not a privilege (even though it is, and should be the latter). legit can't imagine having one of these in my house, and even using it? there's only one purpose weapons possess - to kill.

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Disarm the state of these types of weapons then (especially Obama, who walks around with ten armed guards carrying these things) and then maybe we'll talk as the whole point in gun rights is actually so that the people can resist the state - like Switzerland. Oh, and along with criminals - because if you ban high power weapons for civilians, then when a criminal is to carry out a crime what weapons to you think he'll pick?

The Swiss have high powered weapons legalised from what I know, and don't have this trouble. It's culture, not the guns themselves.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Everything you've just said sums up my opinion but Dan seems to think that if it doesn't infringe the rights of others then people should automatically be allowed to do whatever they want (except for gays getting married.. hypocrite much?) which is nonsense as there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

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I have stated I would take the state out of marriage altogether meaning anybody can get married (to anything).

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Originally Posted by The Don

Contrary to what Dan has previously said, a guns only purpose is to kill. Be it to commit a crime, for self defence, for war. Whatever the purpose, it is used to maim someone/something which is why the public shouldn't be allowed them. People wouldn't need guns for self defence if there weren't criminals armed with them in the first place. And rather than providing guns for self defence, the government should improve the police force if it's resulting in the public having to take matters into their own hands.

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Then tell me the answers to these two questions;

a) how to you invent a Police force which can respond the moment the first shot is fired? time travel?
b) how do you stop criminals from being able to acquire guns in the first place?

The fact is, you can't. Guns are to kill you are right, and kill in self defence the American people should.

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

Surely madmen are more likely to want to own a gun than a sensible, rational individual? Plus who is to say a "good guy with a gun" would want to use it or even know how to? A good guy with a gun simply doesn't exist.

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Tell that to the millions of Americans who stay safe, especially in crime ridden areas, with a gun under the bed.

@dirrty;

This video addresses your 'point' on the automatic gun you posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDkU1gYfRvU

As Nugent (somebody who knows about guns, as opposed to mollycoddled British youngsters like us lot) says, there already exists a hard process to acquire automatic weapons like machine guns as well as the fact that many weapons which do not look like that are actually just as dangerous (see part on the Congresswoman) - as well as the weapon used at Sandybrooks (a AR-15) being a standard hunting weapon, not a machine gun. So point moot. Just because it looks scary doesn't make it any more worse than a old style wooden rifle or shotgun.

The misinformation thats being spread about guns in this debate is ridiculous; logic ought to be used over emotion.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Where have I suggested that guns don't kill people? the debate is really really really simple. Guns exist, and gun culture exists - what do we do? are we to arm law abiding people against madmen and criminals, or are we only to arm the Police who turn up ten minutes after he's starting shooting off? the choice to be is so blindingly simple it doesn't even warrant a debate.

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Again, you've missed my point completely.

Your entire argument is built around the false assumption that every criminal would be able to gain access to a gun if they were banned which simply isn’t true. Since you haven’t bothered to solidify your points with any evidence I’ll bring in statistics.

There were 6,285 firearm offences recorded by police in England and Wales from September 2010 to September 2011 which accounted for 0.2% of all recorded crime. Here’s the interesting part, 9.3% of all homicides in England and Wales involved the use of a firearm (meaning over 90% of all homicides did not involve a gun) this is polarised by California’s statistics where over 2/3rd’s of all murders during 2011 (68%) were committed using a gun. If your argument was valid (which it isn’t) then the percentage of murders committed using a firearm would be far higher than it actually is. Since a gun is superior to any other weapon such as knives etc. then by your logic all murders committed would include a firearm of some sort since every criminal, according to you, can easily obtain a firearm. In the real world, it is much harder to obtain a gun if they are banned (using the UK as an example) than you actually think it is. Legalising them would certainly have a negative effect and would be senseless to do so.

Rather than fighting fire with fire by placing armed guards in schools, which is preposterous might I add, the US should focus more on mental health care and preventing things such as columbine (where there actually was an armed guard on duty there at the time who was unable to keep the 13 students murdered safe) before they actually happen.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

logic ought to be used over emotion.

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And fact ought to be used over baseless opinions which aren't backed up whatsoever.

Sources:
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

Again, you've missed my point completely.

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I haven't missed the point at all, rather i've just responded with something you didn't want to hear.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Your entire argument is built around the false assumption that every criminal would be able to gain access to a gun if they were banned which simply isn’t true. Since you haven’t bothered to solidify your points with any evidence I’ll bring in statistics.

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I never said every criminal, I state very clearly that a criminal who wants a gun will be able to get hold of one. This is very much the same as all illegal drugs which even I (not being the most streetwise at all) would be able to get hold of junk.

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Originally Posted by The Don

There were 6,285 firearm offences recorded by police in England and Wales from September 2010 to September 2011 which accounted for 0.2% of all recorded crime. Here’s the interesting part, 9.3% of all homicides in England and Wales involved the use of a firearm (meaning over 90% of all homicides did not involve a gun) this is polarised by California’s statistics where over 2/3rd’s of all murders during 2011 (68%) were committed using a gun.

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California and cities such as Detriot have tough gun laws, amongst the toughest in the United States, yet are the worst for gun crimes. So you can quote all the figures you like (many of which are skewed anyway, such as Swiss ones, as they include suicide bids within the figures) but the fact of the matter is that culture is the determining factor - not gun rights.

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Originally Posted by The Don

If your argument was valid (which it isn’t) then the percentage of murders committed using a firearm would be far higher than it actually is. Since a gun is superior to any other weapon such as knives etc. then by your logic all murders committed would include a firearm of some sort since every criminal, according to you, can easily obtain a firearm. In the real world, it is much harder to obtain a gun if they are banned (using the UK as an example) than you actually think it is. Legalising them would certainly have a negative effect and would be senseless to do so.

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Actually it is very easy to obtain a gun if you know where to get them, just as it is with drugs, illegal animals and so on. The reason why many criminals have not obtained a gun is because many crimes, especially murders, are robberies gone wrong - couple that with the fact that guns are expensive to obtain in both this realm and the United States.. which is often out of the reach of petty criminals.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Rather than fighting fire with fire by placing armed guards in schools, which is preposterous might I add, the US should focus more on mental health care and preventing things such as columbine (where there actually was an armed guard on duty there at the time who was unable to keep the 13 students murdered safe) before they actually happen.

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That is all very all. But tell me this, and I want a direct response to this; when the next massacre happens (which it will), what do you say to those teachers and staff members who were forcibly disarmed thanks to your gun controls? because by then it will be too late to say anything as they will be dead. Easy for you to sit behind a computer and say "we need to learn lessons" and pass silly pieces of paper via parliament, but those kids and those staff members are dead. Gone.

Whilst an armed guard doesn't gurantee safety, it's a far sight better than being a sitting duck in a 'gun free zone'.

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Originally Posted by The Don

And fact ought to be used over baseless opinions which aren't backed up whatsoever.

Sources:
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state

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I'm afraid they are backed up, it is people like yourself who live in a total dream land and want to disarm law abiding people.

Absolutely bonkers and as Ted Nugent said, who are you to tell me how, when, where or even if I can defend myself?

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Originally Posted by dirrty

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/339130

pity all of this would never happen in the US. imagine the uproar...

@-:Undertaker:-; that's the responsibility of law enforcement. teachers are only there to teach and offer educational support. not become gun-wielding 'protectors'. it's not their responsibility to make up for the government's lack of control on gun crime, what weapons are allowed and who gets hold of them.

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Civilians have the same authority as Law Enforcement do. Both can be used as public servants, defend the public, and can perform arrests (Citizens arrest if you are a civilian arresting a civilian). If we want to disarm people, start with the government and law enforcement. WE DON'T NEED GUNS RIGHT?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I never said every criminal, I state very clearly that a criminal who wants a gun will be able to get hold of one.

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Which obviously isn't true and is just a thoughtless statement with no real backing. it obviously isn't true otherwise the gun crime rate would be much higher in the uk rather than 0.2%

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

This is very much the same as all illegal drugs which even I (not being the most streetwise at all) would be able to get hold of junk.

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There's a huge difference between drugs which any unskilled junky could make and a firearm which would be impossible for homemad construction and distribution making this point redundant. It's like comparing the circulation of a sportscar to a homemade wagon, any Tom **** and Harry can make a crappy wagon but you won't be finding guns being made this way.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

California and cities such as Detriot have tough gun laws, amongst the toughest in the United States, yet are the worst for gun crimes.

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Again, irrelevant point because they can simply drive a state over and purchase one then transport it back without having to pass through any borders/customs.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

So you can quote all the figures you like (many of which are skewed anyway, such as Swiss ones, as they include suicide bids within the figures)

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Shame that I didn't quote any Swiss ones...

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

but the fact of the matter is that culture is the determining factor - not gun rights.

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They both interlink, America wouldn't have a gun culture if guns were banned the same as in the UK.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Actually it is very easy to obtain a gun if you know where to get them, just as it is with drugs, illegal animals and so on.

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No, it isn't hence the low statistics in the UK. We don't live in some Hollywood film where on every street corner you can find an arms dealer with a huge arsenal in the boot of his car.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The reason why many criminals have not obtained a gun is because many crimes, especially murders, are robberies gone wrong

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Again this isn't fact, just you trying to rationalise your argument with untrue statements.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

couple that with the fact that guns are expensive to obtain in both this realm and the United States.. which is often out of the reach of petty criminals.

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Using your logic of 'if a madman wants a gun he will get one whether they are banned or not' you're really telling me price is the deterring factor? Try harder dan...

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

That is all very all. But tell me this, and I want a direct response to this; when the next massacre happens (which it will), what do you say to those teachers and staff members who were forcibly disarmed thanks to your gun controls?

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Teacher's shouldn't be forced into wielding guns and its insane to think that increasing the amount of weapons in the US is the most appropriate response. Not only would this be completely ignoring the root of the problem (lack of mental health care) it would have a negative effect to the amount of potential teachers, since they are applying to teach, not be armed vigilantes.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

because by then it will be too late to say anything as they will be dead. Easy for you to sit behind a computer and say "we need to learn lessons" and pass silly pieces of paper via parliament, but those kids and those staff members are dead. Gone.

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And it's easy for you to dream of a world where everybody can own whatever they want but it's simply just that, a dream. Not everybody is mentally responsible to own a firearm and I'd much rather the idea of an unarmed majority as opposed to everybody walking round with holsters dangling from their waists.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Whilst an armed guard doesn't gurantee safety, it's a far sight better than being a sitting duck in a 'gun free zone'.

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A gun free country with decent mental health care is a far better sight than one with the Ted Nugent philosophy of an eye for an eye and shoot to kill.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I'm afraid they are backed up, it is people like yourself who live in a total dream land and want to disarm law abiding people.

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They aren't backed up, you haven't provided proof of your main point which is 'its easy to buy guns in the uk' which is complete and utter garbage hence the low gun crime over here.

If you do respond please don't try and pass off your opinions as fact and then use that for the entire basis of your argument.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Which obviously isn't true and is just a thoughtless statement with no real backing. it obviously isn't true otherwise the gun crime rate would be much higher in the uk rather than 0.2%

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Untrue, it's more so culture which decides whether a criminal gets a gun rather than the supply. The example can be seen in Switzerland where gun culture is not present compared with the likes of the United States or neighbouring Mexico.

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Originally Posted by The Don

There's a huge difference between drugs which any unskilled junky could make and a firearm which would be impossible for homemad construction and distribution making this point redundant. It's like comparing the circulation of a sportscar to a homemade wagon, any Tom **** and Harry can make a crappy wagon but you won't be finding guns being made this way.

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Guns are very easy to smuggle much like other things, especially when you have a land border like the United States with a country like Mexico (another country that has strict gun laws, much good they are doing).

You don't like it but the fact is that guns are going to get in. So what are you going to do about it?

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Originally Posted by The Don

Again, irrelevant point because they can simply drive a state over and purchase one then transport it back without having to pass through any borders/customs.

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But but da gun lawz wud stop it right??? the logic coming from you is so flawed is gob smacking. So when US states (all of which have tough guns laws anyway, just some are more tough than others) ban guns altogether where do you think guns will come from next? neighbouring Mexico my friend which has a massive land border with the United States.

But don't let logic get in the way.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Shame that I didn't quote any Swiss ones...

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Your side of the argument gets really angry when Switzerland is brought up because its an example which proves that you can have lax gun laws and very low gun crime. Annoying, yeah? as i've said before, if you are really serious about this issue then start thinking in terms of gun culture and drug usage as opposed to the caveman thought process of 'gunz r bad lets ban them and everythin will b3 solved'.

Doesn't work, it's a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by The Don

They both interlink, America wouldn't have a gun culture if guns were banned the same as in the UK.

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What, like Mexico?

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Originally Posted by The Don

No, it isn't hence the low statistics in the UK. We don't live in some Hollywood film where on every street corner you can find an arms dealer with a huge arsenal in the boot of his car.

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Watch Ross Kemp on gangs, the Liverpool edition. From what I recall, it tells another story.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Again this isn't fact, just you trying to rationalise your argument with untrue statements.

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This is well known fact actually, most murders are not pre-meditated and are crimes gone wrong.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Using your logic of 'if a madman wants a gun he will get one whether they are banned or not' you're really telling me price is the deterring factor? Try harder dan...

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Price is a factor for petty criminals, yes.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Teacher's shouldn't be forced into wielding guns and its insane to think that increasing the amount of weapons in the US is the most appropriate response. Not only would this be completely ignoring the root of the problem (lack of mental health care) it would have a negative effect to the amount of potential teachers, since they are applying to teach, not be armed vigilantes.

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I wouldn't force teachers to do anything or even schools for that matter, but i'd be sending my children to a school where the teachers are armed or the school has armed guards. Much like Mr. Obama who sends his children to an armed school.

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Originally Posted by The Don

And it's easy for you to dream of a world where everybody can own whatever they want but it's simply just that, a dream. Not everybody is mentally responsible to own a firearm and I'd much rather the idea of an unarmed majority as opposed to everybody walking round with holsters dangling from their waists.

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The US has restrictions in place to prevent crazies from getting guns. However, not every system is infallible - including yours.

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Originally Posted by The Don

A gun free country with decent mental health care is a far better sight than one with the Ted Nugent philosophy of an eye for an eye and shoot to kill.

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You mean a country which hands out anti-depressants in the name of mental health? of which almost every gun mass murderer has been taking? don't you find that a little bit strange as Mr. Hitchens has pointed out?

But no, by all means continue blaming guns as opposed to the nutters who carry out these crimes.

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Originally Posted by The Don

They aren't backed up, you haven't provided proof of your main point which is 'its easy to buy guns in the uk' which is complete and utter garbage hence the low gun crime over here.

If you do respond please don't try and pass off your opinions as fact and then use that for the entire basis of your argument.

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My opinions are fact and they're logical, yours are driven on pure emotion - but the good thing is that your opinion and the opinion of the hysterical majority doesn't matter in this debate as the US Constitution was put into place to protect my rights from your terrible arguments.

So amen for that, land of the free.

Can I just bring up Switzerland, yet again... You say that Switzerland has 'very low' gun crime, but of course it depends what you mean by 'low' Compared to the US, who also have guns, yes. Compared to the UK, who do not have guns, Switzerland's gun crime is very high.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

My opinions are fact

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Well, we might as well close this thread then, since there's no debate really, is there? :P

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Can I just bring up Switzerland, yet again... You say that Switzerland has 'very low' gun crime, but of course it depends what you mean by 'low' Compared to the US, who also have guns, yes. Compared to the UK, who do not have guns, Switzerland's gun crime is very high.

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Indeed, or use examples such as Mexico (very very very strict gun laws, almost banned) or the United Kingdom before 1920 when we also had low gun crime but had lax gun laws - the only reason guns were banned in the UK of course being that the government was afraid of revolution.

So as I keep saying, it's much more to do with culture and maybe evn drugs - not gun ownership.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Well, we might as well close this thread then, since there's no debate really, is there? :P

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The point was merely returned to The Don, who has resorted to telling me my opinions aren't fact (really high class of intellect debate there).

But hey you might aswell close, as the US Constitution thankfully safeguards the liberty of the free against the tyranny of the hysterical majority.

And I can't stress or rub that in enough.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The point was merely returned to The Don, who has resorted to telling me my opinions aren't fact (really high class of intellect debate there).

But hey you might aswell close, as the US Constitution thankfully safeguards the liberty of the free against the tyranny of the hysterical majority.

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I was pointing out that you haven't provided any fact (and used your opinion without any backing to form your entire argument). Using your opinions as fact isn't an intellectual debate, Dan. You haven't provided one bit of evidence to make your argument any more credible. I completely shred apart your pathetic point about every criminal being able to obtain a firearm (And no, Ross Kemp on gangs doesn't reinforce that point, the statistics do which argue otherwise). I didn't have you down as one to resort to petty passive-aggressive responses, it's similar to a baby throwing its rattle out the pram when they don't get their way (or in this case, are provided with irrefutable evidence). Before you mention the Swiss again, check their crime rates, which as @Kardan; pointed out, are substantially higher than that of the UK. I guess logic has been tossed to the side for this debate?

Oh, and your inane point about closing the thread because the US Constitution safeguards firearm ownership is made redundant due to 'amendments'.

Edit: Love how you respond to "this isn't fact" with "Yes it is LOLZ" as if it validates your point somehow.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I was pointing out that you haven't provided any fact (and used your opinion without any backing to form your entire argument). Using your opinions as fact isn't an intellectual debate, Dan. You haven't provided one bit of evidence to make your argument any more credible. I completely shred apart your pathetic point about every criminal being able to obtain a firearm (And no, Ross Kemp on gangs doesn't reinforce that point, the statistics do which argue otherwise). I didn't have you down as one to resort to petty passive-aggressive responses, it's similar to a baby throwing its rattle out the pram when they don't get their way (or in this case, are provided with irrefutable evidence). Before you mention the Swiss again, check their crime rates, which as @Kardan; pointed out, are substantially higher than that of the UK. I guess logic has been tossed to the side for this debate?

Oh, and your inane point about closing the thread because the US Constitution safeguards firearm ownership is made redundant due to 'amendments'.

Edit: Love how you respond to "this isn't fact" with "Yes it is LOLZ" as if it validates your point somehow.

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No debate again, just telling me how my argument is redundant purely because you don't like it.

I've addressed the Swiss gun figures as did the Peter Hitchens article which pointed out that suicide via the gun is also included in the figures which skewes the statistics. I have also declared in my arguments on this forum that I believe a higher death rate (in anything) is worth paying to be a free subject or citizen - see my examples on homosexuality, cars, dangerous sports and so on.

A great deal of freedoms will lead to increased risks, of course.