Welcome to Britain! Keith Vaz MP and Mark Reckless MP greet first arrivals

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01-01-2014, 04:40 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Welcome to Britain! Keith Vaz MP and Mark Reckless MP greet first arrivals

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ns-lifted.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-workers.html

Welcome to Britain! Labour MP Keith Vaz greets new arrivals on first flight from Romania (and even bought some a coffee) as doors open to more EU migrant workers today

- Labour MP even bought some a coffee to find out why they are here
- Romanian Victor Spiresau told him he would send his cash back home
- 'I don't come to rob your country. I work and then go home,' he said
- Mr Vaz says Britain should hold referendum on number of EU migrants
- Companies advertise 5,000 jobs to recruit Romanian workers
- Adverts promise cash daily and say command of English 'unnecessary'
- Today 4,896 jobs advertised in England, but less than 150 in rest of Britain

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...35_634x520.jpg
Tory MP Mark Reckless and Labour MP Keith Vaz welcome new arrivals.

Full article is via links.

You know, I didn't think politicians could shock me anymore but then I saw this and it made my blood boil. I'm so angry - as are the comments on the article. Here you have a pair of dimwitted clowns WELCOMING people into this country who are essentially taking up the jobs that British people should and could be doing if they actually had the chance. Nobody blames the migrants themselves, i'm sure they're lovely people - but when you have unemployment and youth unemployment figures that we have, it's simply not on that jobs are practically being outsourced to foreign workers at the detriment of British workers.

Don't give me that 'Brits dont want to do the jobs' because who were picking the crops back before 2004 when the borders opened to Eastern Europe? British workers were. How can Britons with family be expected to compete for same wage rates as Romanians and Bulgarians who will sleep 12 to a slum of a house and have no bills to pay unlike Britons? Truth is, they can't. What happened to the Gordon Brown 'British jobs for British workers' pledge?

Maybe Mr Vaz and Mr Reckless should go for a coffee to the local job centre and speak to young Britons who can't get jobs because of the madness of open borders. Or plumbers and brickies who have been put out of work by Eastern Europeans who flooded the job market and collapsed wage rates. Unbelievable, they're basically laughing in our faces.

Thoughts?
01-01-2014, 05:20 PM
FlyingJesus

If you're willing to work you're willing to work. No-one's taking any jobs away, they're just being given to those who will do them for the least cost to the company as with all jobs ever and the entire basis of capitalism
01-01-2014, 05:27 PM
Chippiewill

Nice of the Daily Mail (And you) to only mention the Labour MP in their headline. Real impartial reporting right there.

They also managed to mention all 3 romanians who do not already live in the UK.
01-01-2014, 05:44 PM
Ardemax

You mean there's more people willing to work harder for less than current unemployed British people? Shock horror.
01-01-2014, 05:48 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

If you're willing to work you're willing to work. No-one's taking any jobs away, they're just being given to those who will do them for the least cost to the company as with all jobs ever and the entire basis of capitalism

That's true - if we lived in a real single market with the same welfare, regulations and wages then that would be a valid point. But it's not a level playing field is it, for the reasons I mentioned above with wages being depressed whilst inflation goes up and up and up. It makes perfect sense for a Eastern European to work for very low wages for the simple reason that in their country, £5 goes a long way. But for a Briton with low educational skills? How can they compete? They can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Nice of the Daily Mail (And you) to only mention the Labour MP in their headline. Real impartial reporting right there.

They also managed to mention all 3 romanians who do not already live in the UK.

Err I inserted the name of the Tory MP Mark Reckless into the thread title? And why? ..because, although the Mail likes to pretend otherwise, the Tories are just as bad as Labour when it comes to this issue. I attack them both equally on this issue as I do with any other. Hence why I included the picture with both the Tory and Labour MP in rather than just the one of Keith Vaz in his own.

If MigrationWatch turn out to be right though in their estimates of 50,000 a year, the Tory Party is even more toasted than it already is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ardemax

You mean there's more people willing to work harder for less than current unemployed British people? Shock horror.

Uh because being single men all living 12 to a slum house they can? Do you get that? Can you comprehend that?

Besides, weren't you one of the ones a few months ago arguing with me over the minimum wage? How strange that all those who argued in favour of the minimum wage against me now seem to think that it's a good thing to have people working on ever lower wages due to mass migration. What an illogical position, assuming that's the one you hold.
01-01-2014, 05:54 PM
lemons

That's nice of him :)
01-01-2014, 07:14 PM
FlyingJesus

Where are you getting "ever lower wage" from when we have a legal minimum that rises with inflation?
01-01-2014, 07:43 PM
Kardan

You're moaning because some MPs welcomed the 3 people on that flight that have come over because of the restrictions being lifted?
01-01-2014, 07:50 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Where are you getting "ever lower wage" from when we have a legal minimum that rises with inflation?

If you really think the official inflation rate is anything near what real inflation is running at then you're out of your mind. The Bank of England have printed £300bn+ over the past few years, food prices and fuel continue to rise yet you're now telling me that it's all okay because the minimum wage (which can be ignored by employers employing foreigners ANYWAY) rises with inflation.

And even if the minimum wage was enforced and the picture you paint is true, then that still doesn't gloss over the fact that it makes economic sense for a migrant from a very poor country to work for that wage but not an unskiled Brit for reasons explained previously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kardan

You're moaning because some MPs welcomed the 3 people on that flight that have come over because of the restrictions being lifted?

It's the symbolism yeah, public opinion has been completely ignored with this and yet we have these two clowns at an airport on a media jolly rubbing our faces in it. The contempt they have for the electorate is sickening.

As I said earlier, maybe they should go to a job centre and meet the people put out of work by mass migration and buy them a coffee instead.
01-01-2014, 07:53 PM
Kardan

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If you really think the official inflation rate is anything near what real inflation is running at then you're out of your mind. The Bank of England have printed £300bn+ over the past few years, food prices and fuel continue to rise yet you're now telling me that it's all okay because the minimum wage (which can be ignored by employers employing foreigners ANYWAY) rises with inflation.

And even if the minimum wage was enforced and the picture you paint is true, then that still doesn't gloss over the fact that it makes economic sense for a migrant from a very poor country to work for that wage but not an unskiled Brit for reasons explained previously.

It's the symbolism yeah, public opinion has been completely ignored with this and yet we have these two clowns at an airport on a media jolly rubbing our faces in it. The contempt they have for the electorate is sickening.

As I said earlier, maybe they should go to a job centre and meet the people put out of work by mass migration and buy them a coffee instead.

Ah, so MPs can only buy coffee for people that the public think are worthy? :P
01-01-2014, 07:58 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kardan

Ah, so MPs can only buy coffee for people that the public think are worthy? :P

MPs can buy coffee for whoever they like, but the good thing is that this PR stunt will be seen by many voters - and for some reason I don't think that many unemployed Labour voters in poorer areas with chronic unemployment are going to think too highly of the antics of Mr Vaz.

That's afterall why Labour are now pretending to be sceptical of mass immigration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQaougVHK1g
01-01-2014, 08:04 PM
FlyingJesus

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

And even if the minimum wage was enforced and the picture you paint is true, then that still doesn't gloss over the fact that it makes economic sense for a migrant from a very poor country to work for that wage but not an unskiled Brit for reasons explained previously.

You mean reasons alluded to and not backed up. If an unskilled Brit won't take work that's available they can't complain about someone else having the job, especially if it's then going to be claimed that this work isn't enough to live on (but somehow ~£50 a week is?) which simply isn't true. People living outside of their means and wanting to be paid large amounts for jobs anyone can do is not the fault of immigration
01-01-2014, 08:05 PM
Inseriousity.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/01/romani...ction-4246521/

this article was funny.

As someone out of work and in the job centre, I will say that a) I don't like coffee, tea please and b) all you bloody londoners taking all our jobs, not everyone can afford to move there y'know. It's too simplistic to say I don't have a job due to mass migration (the north east of england is the whitest place in the country). There are a lot more factors involved and it's too simplistic to attribute it entirely to immigration. Despite that, it's naive to completely ignore its impact so we do need to regain control of our borders.

That Keith Vaz guy always has been a media *****!
01-01-2014, 08:14 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

You mean reasons alluded to and not backed up. If an unskilled Brit won't take work that's available they can't complain about someone else having the job, especially if it's then going to be claimed that this work isn't enough to live on (but somehow ~£50 a week is?) which simply isn't true. People living outside of their means and wanting to be paid large amounts for jobs anyone can do is not the fault of immigration

If it works out better for the Briton to remain on benefits because they are worse off by taking a job with lower wages then it's the fault of mass migration due to the fact that if that's the case (that the job isn't paying enough) the market would have - without mass migration - have been forced to pay more for the job at hand. Because of mass migration they no longer need to do that and instead can count on a labor force arriving from second-world countries in Eastern Europe.

Of course it's also the fault of the benefits system too but there's no denying that mass migration has depressed low skilled wages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

As someone out of work and in the job centre, I will say that a) I don't like coffee, tea please and b) all you bloody londoners taking all our jobs, not everyone can afford to move there y'know. It's too simplistic to say I don't have a job due to mass migration (the north east of england is the whitest place in the country). There are a lot more factors involved and it's too simplistic to attribute it entirely to immigration. Despite that, it's naive to completely ignore its impact so we do need to regain control of our borders.

That Keith Vaz guy always has been a media *****!

Well nobody suggests all unemployment is down to mass migration of course not, it's mainly the lower skilled work that is affected anyway. But yes absolutely, this is all about controlling our borders so that the government is accountable for whatever migration system it opts for.

As i've said countless times - let's have a work permit/visa system whereby permits are issued depending on criminal records, numbers of people coming in, local services where the job is located and whether or not we actually need a foreigner to do the job instead of a Briton. Pretty much like every other country. Ofc for this to happen we'd have to leave the EU.
01-01-2014, 08:25 PM
FlyingJesus

It only takes 8 hours of work at minimum wage to get more money weekly than what you get off the dole, and you can still claim benefits when you work for up to 16 hours a week so it's definitely not an issue of being better off not taking certain jobs, it's just an issue of people wanting everything to be easy and then complaining when it isn't
01-01-2014, 08:25 PM
Ardemax

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Uh because being single men all living 12 to a slum house they can? Do you get that? Can you comprehend that?

Besides, weren't you one of the ones a few months ago arguing with me over the minimum wage? How strange that all those who argued in favour of the minimum wage against me now seem to think that it's a good thing to have people working on ever lower wages due to mass migration. What an illogical position, assuming that's the one you hold.

I don't think it's a good thing to have people working on "ever lower wages" and I'm sorry if I implied that. I would love for every 'minimum wage' worker to actually be on a living wage so that they could actually, uhh, live properly.

Unfortunately as it stands we're not in an ideal world and so when someone wishes to come over here and work twice as hard as any local for the lowest legal wage then what do you say to that? I know what I'd say: let them have it and whilst they're there show all the bigots how it's done.
01-01-2014, 09:06 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

It only takes 8 hours of work at minimum wage to get more money weekly than what you get off the dole, and you can still claim benefits when you work for up to 16 hours a week so it's definitely not an issue of being better off not taking certain jobs, it's just an issue of people wanting everything to be easy and then complaining when it isn't

Depends entirely on the welfare and benefits being offered as well as taxation rates, it's a complex system. The IDS reforms on welfare are supposed to be making sure 'work pays' (his own words) but whether they're successful or not is a different matter.

Point is, if Britons can/could/want/should be made to work these jobs then that's what should happen as opposed to importing millions of workers from the second and third world. That means reform of immigration system along with welfare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ardemax

I don't think it's a good thing to have people working on "ever lower wages" and I'm sorry if I implied that. I would love for every 'minimum wage' worker to actually be on a living wage so that they could actually, uhh, live properly.

Unfortunately as it stands we're not in an ideal world and so when someone wishes to come over here and work twice as hard as any local for the lowest legal wage then what do you say to that? I know what I'd say: let them have it and whilst they're there show all the bigots how it's done.

But what do you class as hard work. For example, i'm against the minimum wage and yet if we were debating the minimum wage people on here would rip me if I dared say that perhaps people should work harder in the event of the minimum wage being abolished. I'd have accusations of 'slave labor', 'work camps', 'people need time off with their families' etc thrown at me. Yet with immigrant workers, the same people seem to think that because they are willing to work longer hours (due to them not having families over here unlike British workers) that to say 'oh fight it out for jobs' is okay when its Britons vs immigrants yet not okay for Britons vs Britons. Either way, if immigrants are better and Britons really don't want the jobs then under a permit scheme the companies/farms would then be allowed to issue work permits to foreigners to come and do the work. So what's the problem with a structured system is my question to people?

And added to all that, I think the hard work thing is wayyyyyy milked over the top to what it actually is. If you take fruit picking for example, it doesn't take anybody with more than an eggcup full of brains to pull fruit and vegtables out of the ground - meaning that all workers doing that sort of work will be working just as hard as one another.

For anybody who is interested btw, there's a good interview on this page - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25549715 - with Sir Andrew Green of MigrationWatch on what he predicts and over what timescale.
01-01-2014, 11:28 PM
The Don
You keep saying that as the supply of labor increases the wage rate falls, which just isn't true.

Quote:

Despite the popular belief that immigrants have a large adverse impact on the wages and employment opportunities of the native-born population, the literature on this question does not provide much support for the conclusion.

Source

Quote:

More research has been done since that survey was written, but the general conclusions remain much the same. Economists find no evidence for widespread wage decreases. The debate on the effect of immigration on wage rates of native-born workers has, believe it or not, narrowed down to the effect on wages of high-school drop-outs. Estimates range from slightly positive to, at worst, an eight-percent fall.

source

Key Points -
- To what extent does the increased demand for goods and services (and hence, for the labor to produce them) created by more immigrants offset the greater supply of labor? Don’t the laws of supply and demand dictate that wages would fall? Not when other things change at the same time. Those immigrants who increase the supply of labor also demand goods and services, causing the demand for labor to increase.
- To what extent does immigrant labor compete directly with native labor? The downward effect on native wages would be maximal if immigrants and natives had identical skill sets. immigrants don’t simply shift the supply of labor. Labor is heterogeneous. When the immigrants have different skills than the native-born population, they complement the native-born labor rather than substitute for them.
Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If it works out better for the Briton to remain on benefits because they are worse off by taking a job with lower wages then it's the fault of mass migration due to the fact that if that's the case (that the job isn't paying enough) the market would have - without mass migration - have been forced to pay more for the job at hand. Because of mass migration they no longer need to do that and instead can count on a labor force arriving from second-world countries in Eastern Europe.

If people choose to remain on benefits rather than work, that's a problem with the benefits system, not immigration.

Quote:

Of course it's also the fault of the benefits system too but there's no denying that mass migration has depressed low skilled wages.

Nope

Quote:

As i've said countless times - let's have a work permit/visa system whereby permits are issued depending on criminal records, numbers of people coming in, local services where the job is located and whether or not we actually need a foreigner to do the job instead of a Briton. Pretty much like every other country.

We do, just not for those in the EU

Quote:

Ofc for this to happen we'd have to leave the EU.

Which is a separate debate entirely.
02-01-2014, 07:45 AM
Zak

hopefully I have some time to contribute to this later on..

for now though

http://youtu.be/768h3Tz4Qik