Daily Mail keeps on at asking top Labour officials awkward questions over peado links

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26333558

Harriet Harman expresses 'regret' after Daily Mail claims

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...and_harman.jpg
Harriet Harman has said she "regrets" that a civil liberties group she used to work for had links to pro-paedophile campaigners in the 1970s and 1980s.

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Originally Posted by BBC (State) News

The National Council for Civil Liberties granted "affiliate" status to the Paedophile Information Exchange.

The Daily Mail has urged the deputy Labour leader to explain this link.

Ms Harman accused the paper of running a "smear campaign". Her spokeswoman later said Ms Harman "regrets the existence of" the pro-paedophile group.

Appearing on BBC Two's Newsnight programme on Monday, she repeatedly sidestepped questions about whether it had been a mistake to allow the Paedophile Information Exchange to be affiliated to the civil liberties group.

'Titivating photographs'

"It is not the case that my work, when I was at the National Council for Civil Liberties, was influenced by PIE, was apologising for paedophilia or colluding with paedophilia. That is an unfair inference and a smear," she said.

"My work has always been, when I was at the National Council for Civil Liberties and when I have been in politics and ministerial office, to protect children, especially from child abuse."

Harriet Harman: "That is an unfair inference and a smear"

Her spokeswoman later told the BBC: "Of course she regrets any organisation's involvement with them, including the National Council for Civil Liberties. But they were immaterial to her work.

"She does not regret joining the National Council for Civil Liberties. By the time she arrived they were very much under the radar and her work focused on other things, such as marches, apartheid and trade unions."

From 1978 to 1982 Ms Harman was legal officer at the National Council for Civil Liberties, which was the predecessor to campaign group Liberty.

The Paedophile Information Exchange - a group that spoke positively about adults attracted to children - was granted affiliate status with the National Council for Civil Liberties before Ms Harman joined.

On Monday, she released a statement saying the Daily Mail was "not entitled" to "smear me with innuendo because they disagree with me politically and hate my values".

Ms Harman then told Newsnight: "It is ironic that they're accusing me of supporting indecency in relation to children when they themselves are not above producing photographs of very young girls, titivating photographs, in bikinis."

On Tuesday she tweeted the message "when it comes to decency and sexualisation of children, would you take lessons from the Daily Mail?" alongside a picture of a Daily Mail website article featuring a picture of a 12-year-old in her "first bikini shoot".

In her statement Ms Harman also said anyone could apply to join the National Council for Civil Liberties upon payment of a fee, and it had had about 6,000 members and nearly 1,000 affiliated organisations when she joined.

'Despicable views'

The newspaper initially accused her of having "tried to water down child pornography laws" during her time at the National Council for Civil Liberties, and then said she had failed to answer the central questions in its report.

It has said Ms Harman, the shadow culture secretary, and her husband, Labour MP Jack Dromey, who also used to work at the National Council for Civil Liberties, had instead used "pedantry and obfuscation" to counter its claims.

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Ms Harman and Ms Hewitt were leading members of the National Council for Civil Liberties, now known as Liberty

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Originally Posted by BBC (State) News

Former Labour Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt, who as the the National Council for Civil Liberties' general secretary from 1974 to 1983 has also featured in the Daily Mail's coverage, has yet to comment on the story. Ms Hewitt stood down as an MP in 2010.

A spokesman for the newspaper said: "For 10 weeks now the Mail has repeatedly asked three leading Labour figures to answer questions about the involvement of the NCCL, a body in which they played leading roles, with a vile paedophile group.

"The belated statements today (Monday) of Ms Harman and her husband - full of pedantry and obfuscation - failed to answer the Mail's central points."

Mr Dromey, in a statement released on Monday, said he had made "repeated public condemnations" of the pro-paedophile group, describing the accusations against him as "untrue".

"Sexual abuse of children is evil and I have always viewed paedophiles and any group associated with them as evil," he added.

"During my time on the NCCL executive, I was at the forefront of repeated public condemnations of PIE and their despicable views."

The National Council for Civil Liberties was founded in 1934 as a result of fears that the right to peaceful protest was under threat.

According to Liberty, its successor group, the founders' aim was to defend "the whole spirit of British freedom".

The Paedophile Information Exchange was an international organisation of people who traded obscene material.

It made national newspaper headlines in the early 1980s when members faced charges of publishing and sending articles through the post, and was disbanded in 1984.

Its ex-leader reportedly said paedophilia was "as much a healthy part of the natural diversity of our species as red hair or left-handedness".

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Excellent work by the Daily Mail, keep asking the awkward questions. Moral relativism has always been a feature of the left.

Thoughts?

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Toby Young in the Telegraph has now written an add-on piece:

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Originally Posted by Toby Young, the Telegraph

After refusing to admit that the National Council for Civil Liberties link to the Paedophile Information Exchange was a "mistake" on Newsnight last night (see above), Harriet Harman has changed tack this morning. A spokesman for Harman told the BBC that she "regrets the existence of" the PIE. "Of course she regrets any organisation's involvement with them, including the National Council for Civil Liberties,” the spokesman said. "But they were immaterial to her work."

That's a step in the right direction, but hardly sufficient. Her spokesman emphasised that the PIE became an "affiliate" of the NCCL's before Harman joined the organisation ("[Harman] regrets the existence of PIE and she regrets their involvement with NCCL before she joined"), but she still hasn't addressed the question of why she agreed to become the NCCL's legal officer in the first place, given the organisation's links with the notorious paedophile group, or why the PIE was allowed to remain under the umbrella of the NCCL until 1983. Let's not forget that the PIE lobbied for the legalisation of sex between adults and children – children as young as four. There's also the question of why Harman, in her capacity as the NCCL's legal officer, petitioned the Home Office to reduce sentences for convicted paedophiles and urged the Crown not to prosecute people found in possession of naked pictures of children unless it could be proven that the children in question had been harmed.

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Click the link here to read more analysis of the situation by Young - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/to...dophile-group/

There's still not been any indication that they had personal or direct links with them as far as I've seen, it's just an affiliate group that wasn't properly checked because the NCCL just wanted as many allies as possible at the time. It's a bit like saying a graphic artist working for Sulake is to blame for a black market trade that takes place between two members of Habbox

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

There's still not been any indication that they had personal or direct links with them as far as I've seen, it's just an affiliate group that wasn't properly checked because the NCCL just wanted as many allies as possible at the time. It's a bit like saying a graphic artist working for Sulake is to blame for a black market trade that takes place between two members of Habbox

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She doesn't seem to be answering the questions very well, and according to Young (see above) she was the one who, on behalf of her Liberty group, lobbied the Home Office to reduce sentences for peadophiles. That's pretty strange in itself.

It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) more emerges with this story anyway.

Didn't see that edit, bit odd but I imagine she was feeling young and fresh and on a power trip trying to pander to as many people as she could, just was stupid in who she colluded with for her position. Will be glad to see her removed as more unfolds on this, can't stand her in any case :P

The Daily Mail has issued replies to the statements made by Harman and Dromney asking the questions - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-replies.html I will post the Jack Dromey MP (husband of Harriet Harman) one as it's most damning.

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Originally Posted by Dromney statements and Mail responses

Sexual abuse of children is evil and I have always viewed paedophiles and any group associated with them as evil.

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: And yet you allowed the NCCL, an organisation on whose executive you served, to lobby Parliament in 1976 for the legalisation of incest and the reduction of the age of consent to ten ‘provided it is demonstrated that consent was clearly given by the child’.

During my time on the NCCL executive, I was at the forefront of repeated public condemnations of PIE and their despicable views.

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: This may be the case, but what were these ‘public condemnations’ and where were they reported?

The Mail has been unable to find any record in either contemporary newspaper documents, or in internal NCCL documents held in its archives at the LSE and the University of Hull.

Then, when I was elected chairman, I took them on.

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: By then it was too late: the NCCL had already lobbied Parliament about lowering the age of consent to ten.

You sat on the NCCL’s ruling executive from 1970 to 1979. PIE paid to join as an affiliate in 1974, under your watch.

In 1975, NCCL lawyers worked with PIE in an effort to gag the Press by helping the group complain to the newspaper watchdog, the Press Council, about a Sunday newspaper article headlined ‘The vilest men in Britain’.

This occurred while you were on the NCCL’s executive.

The NCCL’s annual report for the same year declared that NCCL lawyers had ‘acted for some of the men when there were police inquiries as a result of the article’.

Again, this support for self-confessed paedophiles occurred under your watch.

Finally, in the NCCL’s 1975 Annual Report, published when you were on the executive, PIE was described as ‘a campaigning/counselling group for adults sexually attracted to children’, without a hint of condemnation.

I personally chaired the NCCL conference that, on my recommendation, refused to back by a massive majority a loathsome motion from a leading light in PIE calling on NCCL to support the so-called ‘rights’ of paedophiles. Indeed, my stand was denounced in a leaflet distributed by PIE to the delegates to the conference.

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: If you are referring to the 1976 NCCL conference, as Harriet Harman’s statement suggests, that was also addressed by Tom O’Carroll, a notorious paedophile and founder of PIE who was later convicted for child sex crimes.

Why was this man ever allowed to address the conference? According to contemporary reports, the conference promptly voted to ‘deplore’ the use of chemical castration on such criminals as paedophiles.

Like many organisations in the 1970s, NCCL had been infiltrated but that was the moment the tide was turned.

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: No, it wasn’t: PIE was allowed to remain affiliated to the NCCL until 1983 — even after several of its leading members had been convicted of appalling sex crimes.

I closed the conference saying that we had to stand up for the rights of children not to be sexually abused and that adults guilty of abuse were the lowest of the low. I was then the first to argue that paedophiles could have no place in NCCL.

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: At the time of the 1976 NCCL conference — when it allowed PIE members a platform to speak publicly and still allowed PIE to continue its affiliation — the paedophile organisation was circulating a leaflet to MPs titled ‘Paedophilia, some questions and answers’.

This claimed that ‘girls as young as four months can achieve ******’, and that four-year-old children can ‘communicate verbally their consent to sex’.

It’s all very well saying that you simply ‘argued’ about whether the Paedophile Information Exchange could ‘have a place’ in the NCCL.

But politicians should be judged by their actions. You did not see fit to resign from the NCCL, and PIE remained affiliated until after you left the executive.

As a lifelong opponent of evil men who abuse children, the accusations of the Daily Mail are untrue and beneath contempt.

THE QUESTIONS THEY STILL MUST ANSWER

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1. Why did you take senior roles with an organisation that was affiliated to the Paedophile Information Exchange, a vile organisation openly campaigning to legalise child sex?

2. Do you have any guilt over the many child victims who suffered appalling abuse at the hands of PIE members whom the NCCL helped legitimise?

3. Did you ever recommend that the affiliate links between PIE and your civil rights organisation should be severed?

4. Do you have any regret that you worked for a pressure group that was associated with a grotesque outfit that advocated the legalisation of paedophilia?

5. Having worked for several years for an organisation that gave significant support to PIE, do you feel you can be taken seriously when discussing policies relating to children?

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Pretty strong stuff unfolding here and the Mail isn't letting go.

The Daily mail are being a tad bit hypocritical I feel...

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Anyways, wasn't this all brought up a few weeks back, but only now is it being discussed?

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Originally Posted by Kardan

The Daily mail are being a tad bit hypocritical I feel...

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Anyways, wasn't this all brought up a few weeks back, but only now is it being discussed?

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It's strange how the left all over Twitter (and now you) are trying to conflate pictures of children in the Daily Mail with questions being put to top Labour officials over their links with a group that actively sought to legalise peadophilia - along with a Deputy Leader of the Labour Party who argued for the softening of child abuse laws. That's pretty cheap and deflects from the real issue which is NCCL, Labour and PIE. That's like bringing up whether or not children should wear swim costumes on a beach in public in a debate over whether child abuse is right or wrong. No correlation what so ever.

And yes it was brought up a few weeks ago, but it ain't going away because of the awkward questions not being answered (see above).

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

It's strange how the left all over Twitter (and now you) are trying to conflate pictures of children in the Daily Mail with questions being put to top Labour officials over their links with a group that actively sought to legalise peadophilia - along with a Deputy Leader of the Labour Party who argued for the softening of child abuse laws. That's pretty cheap and deflects from the real issue which is NCCL, Labour and PIE. That's like bringing up whether or not children should wear swim costumes on a beach in public in a debate over whether child abuse is right or wrong. No correlation what so ever.

And yes it was brought up a few weeks ago, but it ain't going away because of the awkward questions not being answered (see above).

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Oh, don't get me wrong - it's not good for Harman, I mean, it's pretty clear to see she did work at a place that had some links with a pro-paedophile group, you can't really avoid that.

I just think that the Daily Mail shouldn't be so quick to jump on it when I say they are in a worse position than Harman, in my opinion at least :P

I don't think Harman has anything to apologise for - she was young, she probably didn't even consider the implications it would have. Heck, who knew she would become shadow Deputy PM and (ex) leader of the opposition? Looking back on it, it's a definite mistake - but what can she do now?

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Oh, don't get me wrong - it's not good for Harman, I mean, it's pretty clear to see she did work at a place that had some links with a pro-paedophile group, you can't really avoid that.

I just think that the Daily Mail shouldn't be so quick to jump on it when I say they are in a worse position than Harman, in my opinion at least :P

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You think a picture of some young girls on a beach in an article is akin to a campaign to legalise child abuse? Very strange.

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Originally Posted by Twitter

Toby Harnden ‏@tobyharnden 2h

Harman tweet response to Mail allegation seems v.badly judged. "They do sleaze too" is v.poor defence + sleazy pics v.diff from PIE links

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Originally Posted by Kardan

I don't think Harman has anything to apologise for - she was young, she probably didn't even consider the implications it would have. Heck, who knew she would become shadow Deputy PM and (ex) leader of the opposition? Looking back on it, it's a definite mistake - but what can she do now?

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It depends to what extent she was involved, along with Hewitt and her husband. A lot of people make stupid mistakes when younger, and come back round.... but child abuse is another matter. I don't think it has ever been looked upon as something worth campaigning to legalise like homosexuality and I am interested to see to what extent Harman and others were involved in giving this PIE campaign more publicity.

In any case as I said earlier, moral relativism is a feature of the left and it wouldn't surprise me if there are still those who hold those views.

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Originally Posted by Twitter

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch 1h

Yes Harriet, you do have something to apologise for, if at any time with the NCCL you knew they were affiliated with paedophiles. #Harman

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You think a picture of some young girls on a beach in an article is akin to a campaign to legalise child abuse? Very strange.



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It depends to what extent she was involved, along with Hewitt and her husband. A lot of people make stupid mistakes when younger, and come back round.... but child abuse is another matter. I don't think it has ever been looked upon as something worth campaigning to legalise like homosexuality and I am interested to see to what extent Harman and others were involved in giving this PIE campaign more publicity.

In any case as I said earlier, moral relativism is a feature of the left and it wouldn't surprise me if there are still those who hold those views.



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Please link me Harman's campaign to legalise child abuse.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Please link me Harman's campaign to legalise child abuse.

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Hang on, did I say Harman? I was referring to the Liberty Group and it's links with PIE. The fact that you are defending her though when she won't answer questions properly when it comes to her links with a group with the group she was very much involved in is pretty strange..... the fact you are trying to equate PIE with the Daily Mail just goes to show how low opponents of the DM will sink in a attempt to deflect attention from the real issue which is that of Labour, NCCL and PIE. Stop attempting to equate a some underage girls in swim costumes with some dodgy groups from the 1970s and 1980s.

In any case, this bit is pretty damning enough anyway -

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Originally Posted by Toby Young

There's also the question of why Harman, in her capacity as the NCCL's legal officer, petitioned the Home Office to reduce sentences for convicted paedophiles and urged the Crown not to prosecute people found in possession of naked pictures of children unless it could be proven that the children in question had been harmed.

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Labour politicians have always disgusted me when they seem to be more interested in the rights of criminals than those of their victims. We saw it under the last government with lax sentences being handed out, prisons going soft and the Human Rights Act. So this is no surprise.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Hang on, did I say Harman? I was referring to the Liberty Group and it's links with PIE. The fact that you are defending her though when she won't answer questions properly when it comes to her links with a group with the group she was very much involved in is pretty strange..... the fact you are trying to equate PIE with the Daily Mail just goes to show how low opponents of the DM will sink in a attempt to deflect attention from the real issue which is that of Labour, NCCL and PIE. Stop attempting to equate a some underage girls in swim costumes with some dodgy groups from the 1970s and 1980s.

In any case, this bit is pretty damning enough anyway -



Labour politicians have always disgusted me when they seem to be more interested in the rights of criminals than those of their victims. We saw it under the last government with lax sentences being handed out, prisons going soft and the Human Rights Act. So this is no surprise.

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Well, from my point of view, we don't know the extent of what happened with this group she worked for. The Daily Mail is happy to pull readers into an article with a 12 year old in her first bikini photoshoot whereas at the moment all we know is that Harman worked for a group that was 'affiliated' with a pro-paedophilia group. Really, it all depends on the nature of the affiliation.

Although, if the petitioning for reduced sentences for convicted paedophiles is true, then that really isn't helping her case at all, and it will be interesting to hear her comment on that.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Well, from my point of view, we don't know the extent of what happened with this group she worked for. The Daily Mail is happy to pull readers into an article with a 12 year old in her first bikini photoshoot whereas at the moment all we know is that Harman worked for a group that was 'affiliated' with a pro-paedophilia group. Really, it all depends on the nature of the affiliation.

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And you are still doing it. If you are drawn into articles with 12 year old girls in bikinis splashed across them, then that says more about you and other readers than it does about me. I merely see them as harmless pictures just as I would with pictures of my sister playing on the beach or a picture of me and my brothers in the bath when younger.

Whether you like the Daily Mail or what it stands for is not on the agenda. Nor are some irrelevent pictures on it's article. The issue is, as others have said, to what extent was Harman and co's involvement in these groups and to what extent did they know about PIE? That's the issue. To bring the Daily Mail into it is to totally miss the point just as Harman is by bringing up the same thing. Even those supportive of her on Twitter are questioning the validity in making a comparison between the two as there is no comparison.

Do you now withdraw your claim *"I just think that the Daily Mail shouldn't be so quick to jump on it when I say they are in a worse position than Harman"* that innocent pictures of young girls on holiday in bikinis in a paper are the same as/worse than the NCCL/PIE or potential involvement by Harman with these groups?

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Although, if the petitioning for reduced sentences for convicted paedophiles is true, then that really isn't helping her case at all, and it will be interesting to hear her comment on that.

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Indeed.

I am not suggesting Harman or others are directly guilty of anything either. I simply think that those on the left who believe in softer sentences or even legalising paedophilia should be exposed in public for their views which are repulsive to the vast majority.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

And you are still doing it. If you are drawn into articles with 12 year old girls in bikinis splashed across them, then that says more about you and other readers than it does about me. I merely see them as harmless pictures just as I would with pictures of my sister playing on the beach or a picture of me and my brothers in the bath when younger.

Whether you like the Daily Mail or what it stands for is not on the agenda. Nor are some irrelevent pictures on it's article. The issue is, as others have said, to what extent was Harman and co's involvement in these groups and to what extent did they know about PIE? That's the issue. To bring the Daily Mail into it is to totally miss the point just as Harman is by bringing up the same thing. Even those supportive of her on Twitter are questioning the validity in making a comparison between the two as there is no comparison.

Do you now withdraw your claim *"I just think that the Daily Mail shouldn't be so quick to jump on it when I say they are in a worse position than Harman"* that innocent pictures of young girls on holiday in bikinis in a paper are the same as/worse than the NCCL/PIE or potential involvement by Harman with these groups?



Indeed.

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But surely you can see a difference between pictures of children in a natural environment and letting a 12 year old pose in a bikini for a photoshoot?

And my claim depends on what 'affiliate' means really. From what I understand, anyone could become an affiliate and essentially it means there was financial backing rather than an influence of policies etc.

I think saying the Daily Mail are in a worse position was wrong, but certainly they are not scot free themselves.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

I think saying the Daily Mail are in a worse position was wrong, but certainly they are not scot free themselves.

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Then we agree.

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Here's the interview if anybody is interested...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvluWCcKSg8

Not looking good for Harman. Refuses to say it was wrong for PIE to be linked to the NCCL.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

There's still not been any indication that they had personal or direct links with them as far as I've seen, it's just an affiliate group that wasn't properly checked because the NCCL just wanted as many allies as possible at the time. It's a bit like saying a graphic artist working for Sulake is to blame for a black market trade that takes place between two members of Habbox

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Not forgetting the money was pretty good too - didn't affiliates have to pay to become associated with NCCL? Also paedo rights is a bit of an over-exaggeration. Rights groups exist for everything in the criminal world. From murderers all the way down to thieves for petty theft. From what I gather the "Paedo Rights" group were not necessarily asking that paedophiles walk free, but were considered to have a range of underlying issues from being the victim of abuse and therefore lenient sentences should be given. Hardly surprising groups ask for and exist for this.