EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

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Want to post anything regarding the EU Referendum? Post them in here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ean-Union.html

Attorney General could vote to leave European Union

Exclusive: Jeremy Wright, the Attorney General, is "50/50" on whether Britain should stay in the European Union and has significant concerns about the growing influence of European courts

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Jeremy Wright, the Attorney General, could vote for Britain to leave the European Union

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Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph

England's most senior legal officer could vote to leave the EU amid fears that that European courts are eroding Britain's sovereignty, The Telegraph has learned. Jeremy Wright, the Attorney General, is considering joining the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union over concerns that David Cameron's deal may not go "far enough".

Mr Wright, who sits in the Cabinet, is said to be "50/50" on whether Britain should stay in the European Union. The Attorney General has particular concerns about the increasing influence of European courts and the growing impact of human rights laws, The Telegraph understands.

Mr Wright is one of a series of Cabinet minister known to have concerns about the strength of the deal Mr Cameron has negotiated with EU leaders. His reservations emerged as the Prime Minister travels to a critical summit in Brussels this week to thrash out a final deal on the terms of Britain's EU membership.

Mr Cameron will carry out negotiations with European leaders on Thursday and Friday before returning to Britain to formally announce the start of the referendum campaign. Mr Wright's position is particularly intriguing because, as Attorney General, he must provide legal advice to Mr Cameron over the legal implications of any deal that is struck.

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Employment Minister Priti Patel is rumoured to be strongly backing a British exit from the EU

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Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph

A minister told The Telegraph: "It is perfectly feasible that this is a legally enforceable agreement but doesn't go far enough. If he doesn't think it's a good enough deal he will vote to leave. "At the moment he is undecided, he is conscious that this is not the final deal yet and major changes one way or another could swing his decision. He is 50/ 50. "He also has significant concerns about the influence of the European courts. There is a question of whether Britain needs to pull out of the European Convention on Human Rights entirely."

Mr Wright declined to comment.

The Attorney General joins senior Conservatives including Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, and Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, who are yet to declare their intentions. Mr Gove is said to be "definitely wobbling" while Mr Johnson yesterday said he will "come off the fence with deafening éclat" when the Prime Minister has completed his negotiations.

Five Cabinet ministers are said to be preparing to back the out campaign, including Iain Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, Chris Grayling, the Leader of the Commons and Priti Patel, the employment minister.

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Looks like a lot of them are on the verge of declaring they want us out of the EU. It's known Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn personally also wants out.

How many in the end publically back it we do not know yet, as it is said Cameron and Osborne are blackmailing MPs with threats of no promotions and sackings if they come out and back a British exit from the EU. That should tell you really all you need to know about the strength of their 'argument'.

Given another poll came out today showing a huge decrease for the Remain campaign hopefully it gives the likes of the AG the courage to back Brexit.

Thoughts?

In other news, the UK's most senior legal officer, the Attorney General, is considering backing the UK to stay in the EU. I know you spam this subforum with loads of eurosceptic rubbish but this has to be one of the most ridiculous, non-newsworthy threads you've ever made. Are you so deluded that you consider it a win when the attorney general has yet to decide whether he's for or against the UK leaving the EU?

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Originally Posted by The Don

In other news, the UK's most senior legal officer, the Attorney General, is considering backing the UK to stay in the EU. I know you spam this subforum with loads of eurosceptic rubbish but this has to be one of the most ridiculous, non-newsworthy threads you've ever made. Are you so deluded that you consider it a win when the attorney general has yet to decide whether he's for or against the UK leaving the EU?

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Oh you don't like this news do you? Legally it shows the worthless agreement is built on sand.

Let's be honest, he is weighing up his career prospects as are the others. We know Michael Gove backs a British exit from the EU and has done for years, but even he is "currently on the fence" because he feels loyalty to Cameron and Osborne. Theresa May is known to favour exit, but is weighing up her career prospects too. Jeremy Corbyn on the other hand has walked many times through the voting lobby to oppose the EU and has made statements against it as a backbencher, yet he too is being held hostage now by his own party on the issue. Conservative MPs are being threatened with no promotions/sackings if they back an exit hence why Savid Javid (long standing eurosceptic) is yet to come out. Cameron has told MPs to "ignore" the feelings of their local Associations on this - the very people who got those MPs into Parliament and Cameron into Number 10.

We know many want to leave, but whether they'll put their careers first or the country remains to be seen. Hence why I posted it.

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England's most senior legal officer could vote to leave the EU amid fears that that European courts are eroding Britain's sovereignty

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The renegotiation will do nothing to solve this therefore it is reasonable to expect he'll back an exit. Unless he puts his party/job before country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...eron-live.html

Leaked memo 'fresh blow' to David Cameron

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Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph

Earlier we revealed how Francois Hollande, the French president, will tell David Cameron that his deal will not get any better and there can be “no bidding” at the decisive summit on Thursday night.

A leaked text reveals how Belgium, France, Hungary and Spain will plan to trim back Mr Cameron’s deal, and then prevent it being copied to halt a “contagion” of reform across Europe.

Leaders will seek to water-down his welfare reforms, making them limited to only newly-arrived migrants, and weaken a mechanism sought by George Osborne to prevent Eurozone countries from ganging-up against the City of London.

According to the text, the Prime Minister will be fighting on multiple fronts to save his deal. He is understood to be deeply disappointed that leaders have responded to his reform agenda by closing ranks and boxing the UK in, rather than suggesting their own reforms for the bloc.

France has set out red lines including no “veto” over the euro area, and insists that Britain’s mechanism to trigger a full debate on Eurozone issues where it has concerns cannot “affect the operation of the euro area”.

Ever Closer Union, the integrationist clause on what the UK wants an opt-out, should remain “the rule” for EU states. For France, Mr Tusk’s draft deal “makes sense, but it should be a point of arrival – no bidding”, the document says.

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The demands made by Cameron were already pathetically weak and now they're being watered down even more.

And this is all before we've even approved/disapproved the deal in a referendum. Even after that, EU courts such as the ECJ as well as the Parliament can overturn parts/all of the deal if they wish because the deal isn't worth anything as it isn't in the treaties. If it isn't in the treaties, the treaties come first.

Ask yourselves this. If they're already ganging up on us and trying to overturn little reforms, as well as making sure the legal clause of "ever closer union" aka more powers keep going to the EU remains in the treaties, how will they behave when you've all been fooled into voting to Remain? Answer: we'll be screwed again like in 1975.

And remember this in the referendum when you hear lies of "the UK should stay in and help reform Europe and not just walk away" well that is exactly what we are doing and we're not getting anywhere. They're not interested in 'reform' and they're certainly not interested in a looser EU.

Why would anybody vote for this?

In today's huge and totally shocking news: Pro-EU leaders don't want less EU power

http://order-order.com/2016/02/18/co...ical-sideshow/

Corbyn: Dave's Deal "Irrelevant, Theatrical Sideshow"

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What Jeremy Corbyn really believes in: an EU exit

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Originally Posted by Guido

Jeremy Corbyn tonight confirms Labour’s schizophrenic position on the referendum: he thinks Cameron’s renegotiation is “irrelevant” and a “theatrical sideshow“, yet will blindly campaign to Remain “regardless of the outcome of the talks“. Eurosceptic Jez speaks the truth:

“The negotiations David Cameron is conducting on Britain’s relationship with the European Union are a theatrical sideshow… David Cameron’s misnamed “emergency brake” on migrants’ in-work benefits is largely irrelevant to the problems it is supposed to address. There is no evidence that it will act as a brake on inward migration.”

Yet ‘Europhile’ Jez spins on behalf of his party:

“The Labour Party will campaign to keep Britain in Europe in the forthcoming referendum, regardless of the outcome of the talks being held in Brussels today. That is because it brings investment, jobs and protection for British workers and consumers.”

We know where Corbyn’s heart really is on the matter. He voted to stay out of the European Community in 1975, he holds the traditional Bennite view that the EU is a bosses’ and banker’s union. John McDonnell is a hard-core Eurosceptic and supporters like Owen Jones are Brexiteers. You can see which Labour MPs have previously been Outers here.

They know Dave’s deal is nonsense but they are selling out to put party, and their own positions, before country…

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So they, the Labour leadership, admit the deal is rubbish, and we know they privately want out of the EU but are scared of ripping the party apart.

In other words like so many politicians they're placing party before country. It should tell you all you need to know about the EU debate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Falklands.html

We're out! SIX ministers head straight for the Brexit as Cameron announces EU referendum for June 23rd after late-night 'deal' in Brussels

- David Cameron today addressed the nation to say he had 'negotiated a deal to give the UK special status in EU'
- Theresa May, Sajid Javid and Michael Fallon all came out and backed the deal and vowed to join PM's campaign
- But Michael Gove leads a group of six cabinet ministers directly to a Vote Leave rally after historic Cabinet meeting
- And Chris Grayling said the deal failed to win power over borders, trade deals or control of the 'national interest'
- PM's announcement came after the first Saturday Cabinet meeting since Falklands War began at 10am today
- The referendum date was today confirmed and Britain will go to the polls on Thursday, June 23

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Government ministers including Priti Patel, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Gove are backing Britain leaving the EU

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Originally Posted by Daily Mail

David Cameron today confirmed the EU referendum that will determine the future of Britain and define his career will take place on June 23. Following a landmark Cabinet meeting that lasted more than two hours, the Prime Minister addressed the nation in Downing Street.

But within minutes of the speech, six of Mr Cameron's Cabinet ministers appeared at a Vote Leave rally to sign on to the campaign against the Prime Minister. Commons leader Chris Grayling said Mr Cameron's deal had failed to secure power over Britain's borders or allow the Government to strike trade deals around the world - insisting a 'sovereign country should be able to do that'.

And Justice Secretary Michael Gove said he had wrestled with his conscience but had to back Brexit despite the Prime Minister's view. Mr Cameron told Britain today: 'You will decide and whatever your decision I will do my best to deliver it. 'The choice is in your hands but my recommendation is clear: I believe that Britain will be safer, stronger and better off in a reformed European Union.'

Despite his plea, six of Mr Cameron's top team - Culture Secretary John Whittingdale, Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers, Justice Secretary Michael Gove, Commons Leader Chris Grayling, Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Employment Minister Priti Patel - went directly from Cabinet to the Vote Leave campaign headquarters.

The group literally signed on to the Brexit campaign by autographing a huge Vote Leave placard.

Mr Gove released a statement running to more than 1,500 words explaining the reasons behind the 'most difficult decision of my political life'. He said: 'I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.

'If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time. 'But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives.

'Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.'

Mr Gove continued: 'Far from providing security in an uncertain world, the EU’s policies have become a source of instability and insecurity.

'Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria.'

And he concluded: 'This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to leave an EU mired in the past and embrace a better future.'

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June the 23rd. Let's make it our independence day.

Well done to the cabinet ministers putting their convictions before their careers. It's likely one of those ministers will become PM after the vote.

No news yet on Boris Johnson but his close friend Michael Gove has backed an exit as has the Deputy Mayor of London.

Thoughts?

Update: another endorsement for the Leave campaign.

The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), the largest party in Northern Ireland, has just announced it is backing British independence from the EU.

http://www.mydup.com/news/article/fo...sR_QN8.twitter

LOOKING FORWARD TO ALL THIS FREEDOM COMING OUR WAY

I agree with leaving the EU it offers nothing constructive for the generations to come.

just registered to vote to protect my own country from the backlash and dire consequences if the UK decides to leave :) #stay

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Originally Posted by wixard

just registered to vote to protect my own country from the backlash and dire consequences if the UK decides to leave :) #stay

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same :)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0VT0F8

lol

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Originally Posted by scottish

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0VT0F8

lol

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Hahahaha. Didn't Dan tell us a while back that this wouldn't be the case?

To be fair why would the SNP ever not say that

But yeah that's still 16 in the cabinet for staying

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Originally Posted by scottish

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0VT0F8

lol

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SNP want every excuse to be independent.

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Originally Posted by Bionic...

I agree with leaving the EU it offers nothing constructive for the generations to come.

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What about making our own free trade deals with India, China, Australia, Brazil, Canada?

We are going to leave. It's just a question of do we do it now and grab the opportunities or later on.

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Originally Posted by wixard

just registered to vote to protect my own country from the backlash and dire consequences if the UK decides to leave :) #stay

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you're so right. imagine if we ended up like Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Canada or Australia. Absolute hell!

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by scottish

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0VT0F8

lol

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@The Don;

An independent Scotland joining the EU would mean it'd be legally obliged to join the Euro.

Nicola Sturgeon gonna get the Scots to vote for that? Dream on. :P

To be fair Britain has been in decline for years ... it always did fine before it joined the EU. I don't know enough about it if I'm honest. Boris Johnson has also joined the 'Leave the EU' party.

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Originally Posted by Zak

To be fair Britain has been in decline for years ... it always did fine before it joined the EU. I don't know enough about it if I'm honest. Boris Johnson has also joined the 'Leave the EU' party.

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Britain has been on the decline since the end of WW2, joining the EU had nothing to do with our decline.

I don't see us as in decline. @Zak; @The Don;

We're the world's 5th largest economy, UN SC member, number one financial centre and the only European country expected to remain in the G10 by 2050.

One of the reasons I want to leave the EU is because I want us to be signing trade deals with India, China, Brazil, Canada, Australia, Malaysia.

http://www.ezimba.com/work/160222C/e...9781206500.jpg

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

We are going to leave. It's just a question of do we do it now and grab the opportunities or later on.

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"or later on" - sounds like you are slightly worried we may not leave in June hence you will be asking for another referendum like the SNP keep doing about Scottish independence.

I like how you quoted the minority - 6 cabinet ministers campaign to leave. Not the majority of the cabinet who are campaigning to stay.

@abc;

I've said before that as the Eurozone moves closer together Britain is going to have to leave. They're pushing for an EU army, shared EU financial institutions like a Treasury and Britain clearly isn't going to take part in them. Not to mention the fact it is falling apart anyway just look at the Eurozone + Schengen. It is moving in a direction that is clearly unacceptable & unsuitable for us and as shown in the 'renegotiations' there's no changing it from the inside. It's just not for us.

My logic is that let us leave now rather than in ten years because that way we'll get a head start in signing Free Trade Deals with the likes of the Commonwealth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35626621

Mayor of London Boris Johnson backs Britain to leave the EU

Mayor of London Boris Johnson is to campaign to leave the EU in the UK's referendum, BBC understands https://t.co/XLXM0QCmDX

— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) February 21, 2016

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbwN7IJW8AAv6oB.jpg

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Originally Posted by BBC News

Breaking: Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson is to campaign for Britain to leave the EU.

The MP's decision comes as ministers began campaigning over the UK's EU membership, after PM David Cameron called a referendum for 23 June.

Mr Johnson is expected to confirm his decision in a statement later and set out his reasons in a Telegraph column.

A statement from Mr Johnson, the MP for Uxbridge and Ruislip South, is expected at about 17:00 GMT, following days of speculation about which side he would back.

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Staying in EU makes UK more vulnerable to Paris-style attacks, cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith tells BBC https://t.co/Morvmrl1xg #EUref

— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) February 21, 2016

Conservative candidate for mayor of London @ZacGoldsmith to vote to leave in #EUref, his team confirms https://t.co/Ptb8WJKvTo

— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) February 21, 2016

He's making a statement live on television right now.

The Secretary of State for Justice, Dominc Raab MP, has also backed the Leave campaign today.

The Deputy Mayor of London has backed Leave and Zac Goldsmith MP (the candidate to replace Boris as Mayor) has also backed Leave.

Well done Boris.

Urgh slippery weasel using the EU referendum as platform for leadership campaign rather than his principles.

Here's his statement from a few moments ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRjl4biSmZ4

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Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

Urgh slippery weasel using the EU referendum as platform for leadership campaign rather than his principles.

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risky though for them backing Leave.

Apparently George Osborne has been threatening MPs (like Savid Javid who wanted out) if they don't back Remain then their careers will be over when he's PM.

Big problem for George now though because looks like Boris could be Prime Minister this summer. :D

Yes he's a slippery weasel too but at least he's going with what he actually thinks on the issue!

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Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

Yes he's a slippery weasel too but at least he's going with what he actually thinks on the issue!

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Boris has hinted towards Leave before though, just usually he said he wanted reforms as many Tories did but obviously now we can all see it can't be reformed.

I wish Corbyn, McDonnell, May, Javid and others would say what they really think though. They're all known to want to Leave in private.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

@abc;

I've said before that as the Eurozone moves closer together Britain is going to have to leave. They're pushing for an EU army, shared EU financial institutions like a Treasury and Britain clearly isn't going to take part in them. Not to mention the fact it is falling apart anyway just look at the Eurozone + Schengen. It is moving in a direction that is clearly unacceptable & unsuitable for us and as shown in the 'renegotiations' there's no changing it from the inside. It's just not for us.

My logic is that let us leave now rather than in ten years because that way we'll get a head start in signing Free Trade Deals with the likes of the Commonwealth.

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IF (and when) we get to that stage then we can look at our membership again then. But right now there is no point in assuming things. We should vote now based on the current situation.

You keep mentioning countries such as Switzerland and Norway however your OUT team mention that "none of the country-based models would work for the UK". You fail to point out that "Norway and Switzerland have to abide by many EU rules without any influence over how they are formed and have to pay to access the single market.".

By being in the EU at least we will have some influence over the EU rules, however the countries you use as examples have zero influence. Is this what you want, the UK to lose influence? If we have a clean break from the EU we would then have to renegotiate all trade deals which could take several years with no guarantee that they would be better for us than what we currently have. Even after we finally have renegotiated with the countries, there would be tariffs set on our exports while having to still meet the EU standards, which means our exports would no longer be considered competitive. Anyone will agree that this is NOT good for our economy or jobs.

"The attractiveness of the UK as a place to invest and do automotive business is clearly underpinned by the UK's influential membership of the EU," said a KPMG report on the car industry. The financial services sector, which employs about 2.1 million people in the UK, also has concerns about a British exit. "The success of the UK financial services industry is to a large extent built on EU Internal Market legislation. To abandon this for some untried, unknown and unpredictable alternative would carry very significant risks," said global law firm Clifford Chance in a report by think tank TheCityUK.

The fact of the matter is, we do not know if we really will be better off outside the EU. Leaving is based on a lot of IF's. If renegotiation's go badly after an exit or we end up being worse off in the long run, all UKIP and people like Dan will do is blame the government for being poor negotiators and try to free themselves of all blame for supporting the OUT campaign. Staying in we know exactly what we are getting.

The EU vote has very little impact on me. The result will not/should not affect me, however I believe staying in will have a greater benefit for the British people and economy. I will be voting to stay in.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Big problem for George now though because looks like Boris could be Prime Minister this summer. :D

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I didn't realise Cameron was resigning this summer?

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Originally Posted by abc

I didn't realise Cameron was resigning this summer?

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If Britain leaves the EU after he's publicly backed the remain campaign he'll look incredibly weak.

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Originally Posted by The Don

If Britain leaves the EU after he's publicly backed the remain campaign he'll look incredibly weak.

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Yes but I do not think it will lead him to resign.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

We are going to leave. It's just a question of do we do it now and grab the opportunities or later on.

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"Britain has given away control of immigration within the EU to the EU, and retains the power only to control non-EU immigration.This has led to huge disparities where Commonwealth citizens with family in Britain struggle to obtain visas whilst EU citizens with little link with the UK can automatically work here"

This should be the priority if you ask me

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Originally Posted by abc

IF (and when) we get to that stage then we can look at our membership again then. But right now there is no point in assuming things. We should vote now based on the current situation.

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No, you assess it on where it has gone and where we know it is going.

In 1975 we were promised it would only be a trading club and look at the monster it has grown into.

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Originally Posted by abc

You keep mentioning countries such as Switzerland and Norway however your OUT team mention that "none of the country-based models would work for the UK". You fail to point out that "Norway and Switzerland have to abide by many EU rules without any influence over how they are formed and have to pay to access the single market.".

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I haven't actually said we would have to join the EEA or EFTA but those are two choices certainly. I actually favour EFTA/Bilateral FTAs rather than the Norway model but all are preferable to EU membership. The argument you make though in relation to EU law is a false argument anyway as it would be like arguing to become a province of China in order to have a "say" in Chinese market rules. Or a state of America. All countries which trade with one another have to abide by each others rules just as American companies have to abide by British safety standards.

Besides all this Britain would be able to negotiate a much better deal than Norway or Switzerland. They've got good deals and they're happy with them.

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Originally Posted by abc

By being in the EU at least we will have some influence over the EU rules, however the countries you use as examples have zero influence. Is this what you want, the UK to lose influence? If we have a clean break from the EU we would then have to renegotiate all trade deals which could take several years with no guarantee that they would be better for us than what we currently have.

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I keep hearing this influence argument yet as shown time and time again what has this supposed influence ever got us? Cameron went to the EU with some pretty basic and small reforms and came back with virtually nothing, showing just how much "influence" we have in the EU. Nilch.

As for exports, what rot. Our companies have to meet American, Chinese, Indian standards when they trade too.

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Originally Posted by abc

Even after we finally have renegotiated with the countries, there would be tariffs set on our exports while having to still meet the EU standards, which means our exports would no longer be considered competitive. Anyone will agree that this is NOT good for our economy or jobs.

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False. The World Trade Organisation (WTO) forbids revenge tariffs.

In any case, even small tariffs won't be erected. Do you think German car manufacturers are going to let Angela Merkel potentially put tens of thousands of German workers out of work by making trade with Britain harder to do? 5 million jobs in Europe depend on UK trade, they won't hurt themselves.

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Originally Posted by abc

"The attractiveness of the UK as a place to invest and do automotive business is clearly underpinned by the UK's influential membership of the EU," said a KPMG report on the car industry. The financial services sector, which employs about 2.1 million people in the UK, also has concerns about a British exit. "The success of the UK financial services industry is to a large extent built on EU Internal Market legislation. To abandon this for some untried, unknown and unpredictable alternative would carry very significant risks," said global law firm Clifford Chance in a report by think tank TheCityUK.

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I could quote thinktanks and economists saying exactly the opposite.

The EU is actually a danger to the City with excessive regulation. The City is successful because of low taxes and low regulation, not the EU lol.

Is the financial centre of Hong Kong in the European Union? Is Singapore? Is New York? Is Dubai? Is Jeddah?

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Originally Posted by abc

The fact of the matter is, we do not know if we really will be better off outside the EU. Leaving is based on a lot of IF's. If renegotiation's go badly after an exit or we end up being worse off in the long run, all UKIP and people like Dan will do is blame the government for being poor negotiators and try to free themselves of all blame for supporting the OUT campaign. Staying in we know exactly what we are getting.

The EU vote has very little impact on me. The result will not/should not affect me, however I believe staying in will have a greater benefit for the British people and economy. I will be voting to stay in.

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Staying has more ifs and dangers.

If we stay we face being trapped in a club where the Eurozone constantly outvotes us.
If we stay we face losing our UN Security Council seat as we'll be under pressure to merge the UK-FR seats into an EU seat.
If we stay we face the threat of terror attacks due to the EU's inability to control its borders.
If we stay we face being sucked into an EU army which they are intent on building.
If we stay we face tighter regulations on the City of London which would mean business moving to Frankfurt.
If we stay we face more bailouts for the Eurozone countries.
If we stay we face an even bigger bill as countries like Bosnia and Turkey join.
If we stay we face having to overhaul our entire legal system changing from common law to European law.
If we stay we miss out on signing Free Trade Deals with growing economies like China, India, Brazil and South Africa.
If we stay we face being dragged into more conflicts in Eastern Europe as seen with the game of Russian roulette over Ukraine.

Leaving would...

Return sovereignty to parliament so British law is made by our elected Commons.
Allow us to sign FTAs with growing economies like India, China and Australia.
Improve relations between Britain and the EU as we wouldn't be standing in the way of their integration.
Give us back control of our own waters so British fishing fleets aren't competing in our own waters with European fleets.
Have us improve and build on relations with the Commonwealth and use it as a forum for global trade negotiations.
Give us the ability to control our borders and immigration which we currently cannot do.
Save us billions every year in membership fees.
Allow us cheaper goods such as food as we wouldn't then be forced into paying more for say French goods.
Help developing countries in Africa by signing FTAs with them as well as bringing our shopping costs down.
Develop closer relations with Switzerland, Iceland and Norway meaning other EU countries which also want out have a strong alternative.

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Originally Posted by Bionic...

"Britain has given away control of immigration within the EU to the EU, and retains the power only to control non-EU immigration.This has led to huge disparities where Commonwealth citizens with family in Britain struggle to obtain visas whilst EU citizens with little link with the UK can automatically work here"

This should be the priority if you ask me

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Indeed the entire immigration system is absurd when it comes to the EU.

A criminal from Slovakia has an automatic right to come to Britain yet a Canadian faces red tape. It is upside down.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No, you assess it on where it has gone and where we know it is going.

In 1975 we were promised it would only be a trading club and look at the monster it has grown into.

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What a complete lie. The words "ever closer union" have always been an integral part of the EU and its predecessors, even before the UK joined. To claim anything otherwise is a complete lie.

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Originally Posted by The Don

What a complete lie. The words "ever closer union" have always been an integral part of the EU and its predecessors, even before the UK joined. To claim anything otherwise is a complete lie.

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I mean we as in the public.

We were told this...

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“There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

Prime Minister Edward Heath, television broadcast on Britain’s entry into the Common Market, January 1973

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And meanwhile the Foreign Office wasn't telling us the truth...

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Originally Posted by FCO internal memo

“the ultimate creation of a European federal state, with a single currency. All the basic instruments of national economic management (fiscal, monetary, incomes and regional policies) would ultimately be handed over to the central federal authorities. The Werner report suggests that this radical transformation of present Communities should be accomplished within a decade”. (PRO/FCO 30/789)

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And we're still not being told the truth in public now either by those wanting to keep us in as to where this thing is heading.

Britain doesn't want to be in a federal Europe so why not accept this and leave now in favourable conditions rather than leave ten years down the road.

Tbh it's all wrong and we need a new system hence the referendum i guess
y'all idiots better not jeopardise the future of this country

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

My logic is that let us leave now rather than in ten years because that way we'll get a head start in signing Free Trade Deals with the likes of the Commonwealth.

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I have no firm stance one way or the other but if the EU is really trying to become an exclusive socio-corporate bloc would they not try to put up barriers against a lot of trading deals anyway whether we stay or not? And if that's really the case rather than just a scary conspiracy theory would it not then mean that leaving will set us fully against the EU trading group and give us a great many more countries that we can't trade with at all compared to the few further afield that we'd be more open to?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

What about making our own free trade deals with India, China, Australia, Brazil, Canada?

We are going to leave. It's just a question of do we do it now and grab the opportunities or later on.



you're so right. imagine if we ended up like Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Canada or Australia. Absolute hell!

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@The Don;

An independent Scotland joining the EU would mean it'd be legally obliged to join the Euro.

Nicola Sturgeon gonna get the Scots to vote for that? Dream on. :P

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i'm irish love! republic x

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

I have no firm stance one way or the other but if the EU is really trying to become an exclusive socio-corporate bloc would they not try to put up barriers against a lot of trading deals anyway whether we stay or not? And if that's really the case rather than just a scary conspiracy theory would it not then mean that leaving will set us fully against the EU trading group and give us a great many more countries that we can't trade with at all compared to the few further afield that we'd be more open to?

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I don't get it sorry? I'll try answer what I think you're asking. They're basically building a state of which the Eurozone will be the beginnings of but they won't stop trading with other countries, they can't afford to cut other countries off including Britain. We'd be able to sign a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the EU itself as a bloc... it currently signs FTAs on our behalf but they're often not very free market (due to French opposition and having to take into account all 28 member states provisions) and they're very slow at completing them. I think the last time I checked tiny Switzerland has signed more FTAs than the EU.

Britain on the other hand is much more pro-free market and along with our legal system and outlook matching that of the Commonwealth we'd be able to sign FTAs with India, Bangladesh, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc quite quickly I would think. When the world's 5th largest economy and largest financial centre in the world is free and able to sign FTAs there will be a queue to sign with us. And our deals will be quite extensive/open across all economic sectors.

Does that answer what you mean? :P