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Originally Posted by
FlyingJesus
Cool story, and I never said that Ireland should leave the EU but you seem to think I'm a supporter of that idea for some reason. Let's try asking AGAIN: how is it that asking Ireland to leave the EU is terrible but asking NI to leave the UK somehow isn't? That's all I'm getting at here, your inconsistency
first of all, NI wouldn't be leaving the UK
second of all, I never said I supported it so what point are you trying to make exactly?
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Originally Posted by
-:Undertaker:-
So you agree with myself, the Tory Party and the DUP that any splitting Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom by remaining in the Customs Union/Single Market via a backstop is completely unacceptable? If so, we are in agreement.
If it was temporary as a means to an end? Sure, but obviously not on the cards.
I feel like the most appropriate thing would be another referendum specifically for NI, given that NI did technically vote to to remain. Obviously this would never happen for the intevitable backlash elsewhere.
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It was said prior to the referendum that a Leave vote would result in a surge in Scottish independence, instead we've had the opposite effect. I have always said that EU membership weakens larger countries such as Britain, Spain and Italy because it encourages smaller breakaway states in that instead of looking to London/Madrid/Rome they can look to Brussels. Once Britain is out of the EU, the debate will drastically change: it will be Scottish Nationalists and Irish Republicans who will have to argue for leaving the UK Single Market, UK Customs Union, joining Schengen and adopting the Euro currency.
I said outright it was pure speculation and the opposite could happen, however looking at the figures the referendum had little impact. It was pretty consistently no before and after the referendum bar a brief surge immediately after in favour of yes, which might actually be more down to DC resigning. It will be something to assess later down the line.
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Post-Brexit it could go either way depending on what we decide. We could adopt policies totally the opposite to what I want, and I could see it all go to pot. But I didn't vote Brexit to get solely what I want - I voted it so the country can get what it wants.
For example, EU rules in regards to the Single Market curb a lot of what a Corbyn-style government would want to do in terms of business freedom. That's something I am in agreement with the EU on. But how wrong would that be of me, to use a foreign power to overrule my fellow Britons who have elected a (crazy) Marxist government. It's all about legitimacy in my eyes.
Lots of coulds and shoulds basically, no actual substance. Fundamentally, you have just made completely contradictory points to show Brexit is a good thing to the individual who looks at this economically.
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We're bent over the barrel by French farmers because we're locked into a system where we have a small % of votes, QMV, other nations generally back France and Germany as the drivers of the project, and where the ECJ then enforces it whether we like it or not. That's not to say our governments' haven't been pathetically weak as well.
Outside of that system, we sign FTAs on our own. It'll be entirely our choice whether to sign these FTAs. If America, Japan or China demand unacceptable terms, then we simply don't sign an agreement with them. It really is that simple. Flexibility.
Are you talking about the EU Parliament here? Curious to see what numbers you're actually looking at. I'm looking at some LSE study for the Council which does put us at the end, but actually Germany isn't far off us so you must be looking at something else.
Also we have the joint 3rd most seats with Italy. France has 1 more than us, presumably because of how France overseas territories are still technically France. Germany is on 99 going down to 96. In the context of other member states, that's pretty high and if you can argue that winning an election with a plurality by a few percent, or that winning a referendum by <4% is a significant majority, then I think it's fair to say the 9.7% we have is pretty darn big.
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I haven't got figures but you can apply the logic to any number of things. I've read before how as a result of EU procurement in defence, we've paid a fortune for less than reliable military equipment when the American stuff was half the price and far superior. It's this mixing of European federalist politics that has poisoned our economic thinking. The EU is political, not economic; always remember that.
When have we done this? The only example I can think of is Maggie Thatcher buying US helicopters instead of from BAE (a UK company). We have tonnes of US equipment and we, along with other European countries, purchased (and possibly contributed to?) the notably infamous F-35 from them (which, by the way, has been surrounded by all sorts of controversy regarding poor design/management). Literally just google it and see how much equipment we get from the US.
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I don't make any assumptions, like I said I have ideas and opinions as to how Britain should run itself once independent but that isn't my decision alone to take. We could make a huge mess of it, correct. But I would rather make a mess of it ourselves than be run from abroad. Besides, generally I think good governance comes from independent, medium-sized nation states.
Yes, you did make a poor assumption. You assume in some relevant case scenario fruit will be cheaper, yet the EU already has a lot of FTA with countries meaning cheap food from non-EU countries.
Also does this mean you're hoping for the splitting of the USA, China and other non-medium states? Or would that then make us large states so we just endlessly break up?
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I asked two remainer friends who were arguing for reform, and asked what reforms would you propose that would stand a chance of being accepted and adopted by the European Union. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
A directly elected President and a change from the voting system they have in place, which I'm not a huge fan of personally.
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They're using Ulster as a crowbar to keep us tied to the continental system. Politics 101.
Or maybe they're simply acting on behalf of a member state who doesn't want the violence and death?
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It matters because in any democratic system it is important that people generally understand the concept so the democratic process is transparent. This is true in the Westminster system: you have the Crown, and HM Government appointed from Parliament. The European Union system on the other hand was always intended to be complex, as it helped hide what was being created. I have studied this for years and I still cannot fully grasp it. It's *designed* to be that way as it avoids accountability.
Not to be offensive, but just because you don't understand something doesn't make it complex.
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Indeed, which is why I now believe the solution is No Deal.
cool have fun in Spain
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Originally Posted by
Zak
I don't understand the pessimism? I know very little about this stuff but things aren't getting better?.. surely it's time to change direction?
I've spoken with a lot of the older generation, ones that fought for what we have. I saw no fear, they genuinely think that leaving the EU will be best for this country. You can't tell me my Granddad (90) doesn't have my interests at heart? Or Norman (97), a family friend, doesn't have his grandchildren and great-grandchildren's interests at heart?
In the nicest way possible, just because they may have their interests at heart doesn't actually mean they understand it or that it's right. You don't just change direction in the hope you don't drive into a lake, you look at a map first and that's actually a lot of peoples problems. The whole process was started with no clear direction from government, and there really is still no clear direction to this day.
