Pros and cons of the EU? And what is your opinion of it?

[The Don]

I think this is the right forum, I am against the EU, I can't really see how it benefits us, anyone who is pro EU, can you shed some light on the pro's of it?

what are the pros and cons of the EU? I'll post some con's...

• The EU plans to take nation states and create a political superstate.
• The European Arrest Warrant means that a Brit can be accused of a crime that is not an offence in Britain, be arrested by foreign police at his home in Britain, and be held in a foreign jail pending trial under a code of justice that disregards habeas corpus
• The EU is against Britain's Common Law. The Common Law protects both freedom and prosperity, yet the EU wants to get rid of it.

Habeas Corpus definition - A writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is good you brought in the habius corpus issue - a very important part of this country and our idea of democracy, sadly it is threatened by the European Union with the likes of the European Arrest Warrant (more on police and security powers in todays Mail which you may have already read).

I am assure you somebody in this thread will go onto 'oh but we need the EU for our trade' - yes we do, and the EU needs us also. However you do not have to be in the European Union to trade with it, just as we do not have to be a part of the United States to trade with them either.

Any pros there are (seriously cannot think of any as it stands) are outweighed by the fact of the cost, lack of sovereignty and the very fact that we could create any of that legislation in our own parliament suited to our own needs and not those of Europe.

The European Union and its federalist dream will be the biggest issue of the next few decades, I can assure you.

(a vague PAN-European video showing the divide I list below, many will just not (refuse) to accept the democratic majority and its view)

This is simply democracy vs bureaucracy.

[alexxxxx]

the resident ukip guys are here but i'll say the pros and be done with it:

-guaranteed free movement of people, people move to spain, france, germany without any sort of restrictions and we have had relatively low-skilled people to fill vacancies here
-free trade of goods and services without tax
-rights for delays on european airlines
-university co-operation and the eurasmus scheme for university students where students can spend a term/year of their course abroad
-restrictions and regulation of multinationals to guard against price-fixing
-european standards and regulations (often then taken as standards elsewhere) in terms of goods and products meaning that countries cannot put up artificial barriers to entry for foreign firms
-EU standard driving license to stop the requirements of having to get translations of driving licenses when in certain countries
-EHIC to allow for free or cut-priced treatment at hospitals whilst abroad
-funding re-allocated to areas and development ignored by national government
-better co-operation between national governments when thinking up strategies for global and pan-euro issues, leading to better allocation of resources
-european safety standards on a variety of things from cars to buildings
-joint scientific research

+manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more.

cons:

-obviously some waste
-problems with accountability in the comission
-public generally unaware about what the EU does
-some countries which use the euro probably shouldn't

[-:Undertaker:-]

the resident ukip guys are here but i'll say the pros and be done with it:

-guaranteed free movement of people, people move to spain, france, germany without any sort of restrictions and we have had relatively low-skilled people to fill vacancies here

We could move to Europe before the European Union came into being, if anything it turns parts of Spain into 'mini-Englands' much to the resentment of the locals along with allowing Britain to open up to far too many immigrations from Eastern Europe (last government predicted 13,000 would come, turned into hundreds of thousands).

-free trade of goods and services without tax

This is possible with seperate treaties between nations minus the cost of the European Union.

-rights for delays on european airlines

This would be possible via national parliamentary legislation and would not undermine British sovereignty.

-university co-operation and the eurasmus scheme for university students where students can spend a term/year of their course abroad

Students can go abroad to numerous countries that are not in the European Union, a scheme like this would exist always whether or not it has 'the EU' or its horrendus flag printed above it.

-restrictions and regulation of multinationals to guard against price-fixing

Nothing national parliaments cannot do themselves, again undermining our sovereignty.

-european standards and regulations (often then taken as standards elsewhere) in terms of goods and products meaning that countries cannot put up artificial barriers to entry for foreign firms

The EU often competes in trade wars against the United States as it has a long French history of wanting to rival the United States and the United Kingdom - again nothing we could not do in our own parliament regardless (and without the hefty cost).

-EU standard driving license to stop the requirements of having to get translations of driving licenses when in certain countries

People go to numerous countries and dont seem to have that much of a problem, sinking low down the list here.

-EHIC to allow for free or cut-priced treatment at hospitals whilst abroad

Against the wishes of national parliaments and at the cost of the taxpayer, again undermining British sovereignty.

-funding re-allocated to areas and development ignored by national government

Where national government spends its money is up to national government, the money that goes into these schemes regardless is UK taxpayer money anyway just with a blue flag printed above it saying 'funded by the EU' when it was not - the British taxpayer has funded it not the EU.

-better co-operation between national governments when thinking up strategies for global and pan-euro issues, leading to better allocation of resources

We have NATO and a range of organisations for this, more to the point the EU has got past this stage where its not 'lets discuss the issues' its 'do as I say' where the EU itself directs Europe, not the democratically elected governments of Europe.

-european safety standards on a variety of things from cars to buildings

British safety standards in British measurement systems suit us perfectly fine thanks, and have done for many years.

-joint scientific research

The EU is not needed for that and has mostly nothing to do with scientific research.

cons:

-obviously some waste

I will go into just a tiny fraction of it for you as you've not listed it;

- The EU President (unelected is on more than President Obama or Prime Minister David Cameron.
- The EUs audits have not been checked for over a decade with billions (possibly into hundreds) missing.
- Corruption (Mandelson or Barroso and the Russian metal tycoon on the yacht).
- Over 1,000 eurocrats on more than Prime Minister David Cameron.
- £400 million just the other day which went to a dance group and a burping group.
& various more which can be found on UKIP/Open Europe and various other sites.

-problems with accountability in the comission

- Not elected.
- Many are communists who formerly worked in the Soviet Union.

Oh what the hell here they all are;

-public generally unaware about what the EU does

Correct, British politicians (including former Prime Minister Ted Heath) have lied and lied about what this is really about. Although thankfully we did have the truth in later years from Heath in which he said that when he took us into the EEC he knew it was about creating a United States of Europe.

-some countries which use the euro probably shouldn't

The greek economy in ruins thanks to the European and Greek elite forcing her into joining its monopoly currency, Spain/Italy and Ireland titter on the edge and still they continue with this bizzare project to force Europe to federalise.

Not to add the enormous costs (which are due to rise this year despite the fact we have a massive debt as a nation);

- £100 - £120 billion is the cost to UK business thanks to EU regulations.
- Direct membership costs stand at estimated £8 billion to £16 billion.

It is also important to take note to anyone reading and especially to Don, that alexxxxx is a self-confessed EU federalist who wants the European Union to replace the United Kingdom, the Kingdom of Spain and all the European nation states. Anyone must ask themselves in the name of democracy; why have this lot never asked for us to vote on this project? although not that it would matter because they made Ireland vote twice until they gave the 'right answer' whilst refusing [the pro-EU British government] to give the British people their promised referendum.

[hah]

Largest economy in the world: 16.447 trillion dollars (US:14.226 trillion dollars)

Largest exporter in the world: 1.925 trillion dollars (US: 1.057 trillion dollars)

Inflation rate: 1% (US: 2.2%)

Public debt: 73.6% of GDP (US: 88.9%)

Most development aid: 83.56 billion dollars (US: 26.01 billion dollars)

Most competitive corporations: 163 Global 500 corporations (US: 140), including the world leaders in Aerospace and Defense (EADS), Airlines (Lufthansa, Air France-KLM), Apparel (Christian Dior), Banks (ING, Dexia, HSBC, BNP Paribas, Banco Santander), Building Materials (Saint-Gobain, CRH, Lafarge), Chemicals (BASF), Electronics (Siemens), Energy (E.ON, GDF Suez, Rwe), Engineering and Contruction (Vinci, Bouygues, ACS), Food and Drug Stores (Carrefour, Metro, Tesco), Food Products (Unilever), Insurance (Allianz, Assicurazioni Generali, AXA), Mail and Freight Delivery (Deutsche Post), Metals (Arcelor Mittal, ThyssenKrupp), Mining (Rio Tinto, Anglo American), Automobile (Volkswagen), Communications Equipment (Nokia), Petroleum Refining (Royal Dutch Shell), Railroads (Deutsche Bahn, SNCF), Shipping (A.P. Moller-Maersk Group) and Utilities (EDF, Enel, Veolia) as well as the world's leading research institutions (CNRS, CERN) - all of them ranking above the largest American companies. European products are also universally recognised as being the best in the world in almost every area.

And all that while working less than almost any other people in the world. Which brings me to my next point:

The best quality of life in the world (in some cases behind some small non EU European countries), and also the most opportunity for success: universal health care and education (and also the best in the world), most democratic governments and personal freedoms, best infrastructure, least crime, best preservation of the environment... (14 of the world's 30 most livable cities, the first American one being Honolulu at 31st).

Finally, it has by far the richest cultural heritage in the world: Europe created history's greatest civilisation, which dominates the world today, and conquered almost the entire globe. While all its members share a strong common heritage and set of values - more than enough for a strong political union - each member also has a full blown national culture, its strengths adding to the success and diversity of the union, and its weaknesses made irrelevant thanks to the security provided by the union.

The European Union, first entity of its kind, has an almost unlimited potential for expansion in all fields. There is no doubt which will be the dominant power of the 21st century.


inb4 "the EU is not a country and never will be". In case you don’t know, the EU already has a common constitution, government (executive branch, parliament, supreme court), currency, no internal borders etc, and it’s only 17 years old.
Also inb4 "bawwww 27 countries uniting it's not fair!", except for former colonies, every country in the world was created through the unification of smaller countries.
Also inb4 "derp Greece", that crisis was far less severe than what happened all over the US, including in California, and it ended up being an opportunity to strengthen European unity.

[flatface]

The main "pro" is peace and security. Were these countries to be kept outside, then ancient enmities and a rise in nationalism could spark regional conflicts. Any disputes between say the Czech Republic and Hungary could be settled diplomatically within the EU. There is also a feeling that more than a decade after the fall of communism, Central and Eastern Europe can be reunited with its Western neighbours.

The inclusion of the ten countries will also increase the number of people that are in the European market by 75 million to more than 450 million, making Europe economically comparable to the United States. Existing businesses will be able to take their products and services to these countries without any major obstacles. UK businesses, which have been investing heavily in many of these countries, are expected to add up to £2 billion to the UK's gross domestic product.

[hah]

Undertaker, do you have proof that the EU is hiding millions of euros? that it is being used for corruption? it all seems like speculation to me

[-:Undertaker:-]

inb4 "the EU is not a country and never will be". In case you don’t know, the EU already has a common constitution, government (executive branch, parliament, supreme court), currency, no internal borders etc, and it’s only 17 years old.

Ahh right so earlier on in 'your' post, you said it was a democratic organisation - yet you have just now said (or the stuff you have pasted has just said) that it is a nation/country. How strange really, because the Commission is not elected (which passes 94% of EU legislation with the parliament only passing 4%) nor is the EU President Herman Van Rompuy who has executive powers and attended the G8 summit.

Something that is not elected by the electorate is not democratic.

Also inb4 "bawwww 27 countries uniting it's not fair!", except for former colonies, every country in the world was created through the unification of smaller countries.

Natural unification, artificial unification covers; the United Kingdom (will split and is showing signs), the Soviet Union (has split), Yugoslavia (has split with a bloody war to finish it off) and Czechslovakia (has already split).. not to mention Nazi Germany.

Also inb4 "derp Greece", that crisis was far less severe than what happened all over the US, including in California, and it ended up being an opportunity to strengthen European unity.

Indeed it did strength the European Union because it enacted emergency laws to effectivly take over Greece and her economy. This is yet another point about the EU, that is always wants more power for itself all the time despite the fact the people of Europe do not want the European Union to have more power for itself.

So sex, do you want a federal Europe even though the vast majority of Europeans do not?
(would appreciate a real answer this time rather than copied statistics/a copied answer about the largest economies in the world which have nothing to do with this subject).

Undertaker, do you have proof that the EU is hiding millions of euros? that it is being used for corruption? it all seems like speculation to me

The EU has not had its audits signed off for over a decade because the auditors refuse to sign them off - why? ask yourself. If the books are clean and there is nothing to hide with no money missing, then why are the audits not being signed off?

[Moh]

Been part of the EU means cheaper travel to other counties within the EU, less taxes on trading within the EU, cleaner oceans/rivers, cheaper phone calls.

They're the only benefits we really have, the rest are for developing counties and corrupt governments.

[hah]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.