'Innocent' student extradicted to Greek prison hell under EU arrest warrant

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-warrant.html

A student and four of his friends are facing years in a Greek prison after a holiday turned into a nightmare. Ben Herdman, 20, was due to start his final year studying business at Brighton University soon. Instead he and his friends were extradited this week, accused of attacking a man outside a nightclub in Crete two years ago and leaving him in a coma. They were flown to Athens yesterday. Lawyers for the five claim the case against them is 'ridiculously weak', but they were powerless to prevent the extradition as the Greek authorities used the controversial European Arrest Warrant to force them to stand trial.

They are likely to spend up to 18 months in a squalid Greek prison until their case is heard, and face ten-year sentences if found guilty.

Last night the mother of one of the young men warned: 'Parents, be very afraid – this summer it could be your sons wrongly accused yet you'll be powerless to stop their extradition and immediate detention.' Mr Herdman – whose Brighton University tutors describe him as 'an exceptional student' with a 'charming and engaging personality' – claims he was more than 100 yards away when the attack happened in Malia in June 2008. Another of the five, 22-year-old George Hollands, was asleep in his hotel room. They claim they were targeted by police because they were on holiday with a sixth British man – Joseph Bruckland – who witnesses say was involved in a fight with the 29-year-old victim, Rob Hughes, a semi-professional footballer from Bromley, Kent.

Mr Bruckland, a 20-year-old carpenter from Hookwood, Surrey, is facing a separate extradition hearing next month and also denies the allegations. Mr Herdman, who lives with his parents in Worth, near Crawley, West Sussex, said he was 'appalled' by what happened to Mr Hughes, who needed three life-saving brain operations after the attack. But before leaving for Athens yesterday, he added: 'Being extradited for something I had nothing to do with and facing 18 months in a foreign prison until I get the chance to prove my innocence is terrifying.'

Mr Herdman was with Mr Bruckland and three of the other accused – Curtis Taylor, 20, Daniel Bell, 21, and 20-year-old Sean Branton, all from Horley, Surrey – before the attack. They were walking back to their hotel at around 5am when an argument started with a group of Mr Hughes's friends. Mr Herdman, who is planning a career in IT, said he carried on walking because he did not want to get involved in any trouble. Minutes later a fight broke out and Mr Hughes was gravely injured. Two days later, Mr Bruckland was identified by a witness as he sat on the beach with his five friends. All six were questioned but released without charge.

A year later, the Greek authorities asked the six to return for further questioning after a campaign by the victim's family. The suspects' British lawyers advised them not to go as the Greek authorities refused to disclose the allegations against them. They were arrested by British police in December last year after European Arrest Warrants were issued. Mr Herdman's father, Mike, a 55-year-old independent financial adviser, said: 'I've always told my sons to walk away from any trouble and that's what Ben did. Witnesses have verified this. 'If the police had done their job properly two years ago they could have identified who did this and justice would have been done. Instead, a lot of innocent people are being put through hell.'

Mr Hollands, a plumber from Reigate, Surrey, said: 'The only reason I'm involved is because I was on the beach with Joseph Bruckland when a witness pointed him out. Anyone who happened to be on the beach at that moment would be in the same boat as me now.' His mother Vanessa said: 'How many more young innocent British lads like George will be banged up across Europe before the Government shows some mettle and gets to grips with the failings of the European Arrest Warrant? 'Parents, be very afraid – this summer it could be your sons wrongly accused yet you'll be powerless to stop their extradition and immediate detention. 'When did this country become so feeble in failing to stand up for the rights of its own?' Karen Todner, of Kaim Todner Solicitors, who is representing the five, said they were being jointly charged with the attack despite witnesses – including friends of the victim – stating that only one man was involved.

The same applies to the case of Gary McKinnon of whom US authorities demand he be sent over despite the fact he is not at all the type of person who meant any malice - if anything the US and the Pentagon should hire him to expose holes in their software, i'm sure they'd rather McKinnon be keeping the system safe rather than Chinese hackers looking at military secrets and software.

The notion of 'innocent until proven guilty' and the ancient idea that you are accountable to the courts of the British monarch seems all but dead after years of erosion by the last Labour government and now the coalition government - the same government that harps on about civil liberties so much. According to the comments on the article, the German doctor who killed a patient cannot be put on trial here so yet again it is one rule for Europe and another for the United Kingdom.

This lad should not be sent to Greece unless the Greek authorities can find enough sufficent evidence to charge him to the levels of UK justice, not Greek justice. As far as I understand the EU Arrest Warrant and the EU Investigation Order - even if the act you 'committed' while in an EU country is not a crime here, you are sent back to that country and the British government has no power to prevent it.

The British Government and courts are powerless to protect anyone who becomes the subject of a European Arrest Warrant.

In addition, the accused is denied the right to challenge the warrant before he or she is spirited overseas. The warrant was agreed by EU leaders including Tony Blair and introduced in 2004. Labour ministers signed up in the belief it would speed justice and improve relations between EU countries. Last year, 1,032 Britons were extradited abroad to face trial but just 98 foreign nationals were brought here to face criminal charges.

But far from rowing back the powers handed to foreign courts, the coalition Government has just extended them. Last month Home Secretary Theresa May signed up to the European Investigation Order, the partner to the European Arrest Warrant. It allows foreign police to travel to the UK and take part in the arrest of Britons, place them under surveillance, monitor bank accounts and demand DNA samples.

It is time we start standing up for our own people.

Thoughts?

[alexxxxx]

don't liken this to the american situation because that's an even worse treaty than this, very very one sided.

my thoughts are that if he's found guilty it's a good thing. the case is 'weak' says the defence lawyers - surprise surprise. and 'wrongly accused' - leave that to the courts to decide, not the mother of the accused.

imagine the fury if someone wasn't allowed to be extradited here.

[-:Undertaker:-]

don't liken this to the american situation because that's an even worse treaty than this, very very one sided.

my thoughts are that if he's found guilty it's a good thing. the case is 'weak' says the defence lawyers - surprise surprise. and 'wrongly accused' - leave that to the courts to decide, not the mother of the accused.

imagine the fury if someone wasn't allowed to be extradited here.

My problem is that people can be taken to other countries even if the UK government does not wish that/our courts do not have a real say in the matter. Our courts and Police teams should investigate the case first and then make the decision on whether or not there is sufficent evidence to extradite the person/s to the country requesting (or ordering as is the case with the EU). The US treaty is wrong and so is the EU one - why doesn't this country get some backbone and stop pandering to both the EU and the US(?). The student in this story could be guilty as hell and I have no way of knowing whether he is guilty or not - however it should be innocent until proven guilty and at the discretion of British courts and the British government.

[alexxxxx]

My problem is that people can be taken to other countries even if the UK government does not wish that/our courts do not have a real say in the matter. Our courts and Police teams should investigate the case first and then make the decision on whether or not there is sufficent evidence to extradite the person/s to the country requesting (or ordering as is the case with the EU). The US treaty is wrong and so is the EU one - why doesn't this country get some backbone and stop pandering to both the EU and the US(?). The student in this story could be guilty as hell and I have no way of knowing whether he is guilty or not - however it should be innocent until proven guilty and at the discretion of British courts and the British government.

if you actually read this report it's quite interesting. it also shows that the DM has fiddled about with its figures a LOT and also shows that some cases have been thrown out by UK courts.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...pi3vXK2cJo4xnw

[-:Undertaker:-]

if you actually read this report it's quite interesting. it also shows that the DM has fiddled about with its figures a LOT and also shows that some cases have been thrown out by UK courts.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...pi3vXK2cJo4xnw

'The Commission's report'

The same Commission (I presume the Brussels commission) that has unelected communists/fraudsters and criminals within it, including its former commissioner for 'Justice, Freedom and Security' Jacques Barrot (only stepped down in February this year) who is a convicted fraudster - so you'll excuse me if I don't take its report or its figures all that too seriously. That report also states that;

"The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is now widely used to secure the arrest and surrender of suspected criminals across the Union. The EAW has a key role to play in the fight against terrorism and in bringing those accused of serious crime to justice."

http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-n...arrest-warrant

The link following also shows the apparent low quality of European courts and the shame trials that take place, possible thanks to the European Arrest Warrant which has no concern for 'innocent until proven guilty' and the ancient habeas corpus which was the foundation stone of democracy and liberty in this country. Often you have claimed to be for civil liberties, but just like the Con-Dem government it doesnt seem to apply to that of your European dream.

[alexxxxx]

'The Commission's report'

The same Commission (I presume the Brussels commission) that has unelected communists/fraudsters and criminals within it, including its former commissioner for 'Justice, Freedom and Security' Jacques Barrot (only stepped down in February this year) who is a convicted fraudster - so you'll excuse me if I don't take its report or its figures all that too seriously. That report also states that;

"The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is now widely used to secure the arrest and surrender of suspected criminals across the Union. The EAW has a key role to play in the fight against terrorism and in bringing those accused of serious crime to justice."

http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-n...arrest-warrant

The link following also shows the apparent low quality of European courts and the shame trials that take place, possible thanks to the European Arrest Warrant which has no concern for 'innocent until proven guilty' and the ancient habeas corpus which was the foundation stone of democracy and liberty in this country. Often you have claimed to be for civil liberties, but just like the Con-Dem government it doesnt seem to apply to that of your European dream.

no, read the whole thing. it's by the EU committee of the house of lords, which includes details of the commission's report.

and what youve said at the bottom is a bit of a sweeping statement.

[Technologic]

Because the guy is obviously telling the truth, i mean if he was guilty he would totally admit it. There's always more than the daily mail side to the story....

[MrPinkPanther]

There's always more than the daily mail side to the story....

Agreed. I mean we all know candle lit dinners give you cancer. I'm against extradition in many cases for example in the case of Gary McKinnon where he has a disorder that will not be adequately taken into account by US courts and the offence itself was not committed within the US. However imagine this was the other way around, imagine a British person got stabbed by Greeks to within an inch of his life outside a London pub. Would you be happy for these Greeks to be sent home? I sure wouldn't. This case should be held in a Greek court and it is they who should make the decision, not only was the offence committed in Greece but it was also against a Greek person, there is no reason it should be held in Britain.

[-:Undertaker:-]

no, read the whole thing. it's by the EU committee of the house of lords, which includes details of the commission's report.

and what youve said at the bottom is a bit of a sweeping statement.

Which is why I stated that if it is on the Commissions report then I take it with a pinch of salt. The report is nothing more than a document piling glory on the European Union and the European Arrest Warrant whilst addressing concerns of the Commission itself. The bottom part of my reply was a sweeping statement indeed - you are against banning clothes [burka] but all for foreign countries banging people up for a possible 18 months without British authorities being consulted.

Because the guy is obviously telling the truth, i mean if he was guilty he would totally admit it. There's always more than the daily mail side to the story....

Nobody has said he is innocent, however Mail aside (because the Mail has nothing to do with the case) it is interesting and probable that this lad is innocent when you consider;

Karen Todner, of Kaim Todner Solicitors, who is representing the five, said they were being jointly charged with the attack despite witnesses – including friends of the victim – stating that only one man was involved.

Would you like to be hauled off to a foreign country to jails of which Amnesty International condemns for a period of months, even over a year which is possible without even being charged or taken to court? no, you wouldn't.

Agreed. I mean we all know candle lit dinners give you cancer. I'm against extradition in many cases for example in the case of Gary McKinnon where he has a disorder that will not be adequately taken into account by US courts and the offence itself was not committed within the US. However imagine this was the other way around, imagine a British person got stabbed by Greeks to within an inch of his life outside a London pub. Would you be happy for these Greeks to be sent home? I sure wouldn't. This case should be held in a Greek court and it is they who should make the decision, not only was the offence committed in Greece but it was also against a Greek person, there is no reason it should be held in Britain.

The Mail reports health-scare stories just like the Liberal Democrats, the Times, the Guardian and numerous other left leaning sources report 'reports' of mass death and the end of the world via global warming - not exactly on the high horse here when it comes to scare-media tactics.

I agree the case should be in a Greek Court, what I am against is the idea that he can be detained for a large amount of time without the trial taking place and that the British authorities have no power to stop this European Arrest Warrant even if British authorities felt that not enough evidence was being provided by the Greek police. If it were the other way around, I would expect British authorities to provide sufficent evidence to the Greek authorities before a decision was made on extradition by the Greek authorities - not the automatic and wrong way in which the European Arrest Warrent operates.

As usual, so much for your own 'Liberal' 'Democratic' viewpoint.

Mentioning the new European Investigation Order which is quite interesting and which both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have agreed to; heres a quick summary of some of the new sweeping powers that our government is surrendering; http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-n...w-two-deported - and afterall, they are our rights they are surrendering.

[MrPinkPanther]

The Mail reports health-scare stories just like the Liberal Democrats, the Times, the Guardian and numerous other left leaning sources report 'reports' of mass death and the end of the world via global warming - not exactly on the high horse here when it comes to scare-media tactics.

How you can equate candle lit dinners or facebook giving you cancer to the human created speeding up of global warming which is backed by the vast majority of Scientists is beyond me. Its not scare mongering, it's scientific theory which we need to respond to because if it does prove to be true then by then it will be too late.

I agree the case should be in a Greek Court, what I am against is the idea that he can be detained for a large amount of time without the trial taking place and that the British authorities have no power to stop this European Arrest Warrant even if British authorities felt that not enough evidence was being provided by the Greek police. If it were the other way around, I would expect British authorities to provide sufficent evidence to the Greek authorities before a decision was made on extradition by the Greek authorities - not the automatic and wrong way in which the European Arrest Warrent operates.

The British authorities do have power to stop the extradition of this man, extradition is only carried out after their approval. Once again, British law is above EU law. Whilst EU law is often called "supranational" it isn't because the UK can refuse to go along with any part of it that it wishes, nothing can stop British law which is ALWAYS sovereign.

As usual, so much for your own 'Liberal' 'Democratic' viewpoint.

This is neither undemocratic nor illiberal because UK law isn't a democratic process, judges aren't elected by the people nor are juries unlike some other countries.

If you're going to turn this into a 'party political' thread then please explain to me Lord Pearson's lack of understanding about even the most basic of UKIPs policies?

Mentioning the new European Investigation Order which is quite interesting and which both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have agreed to; heres a quick summary of some of the new sweeping powers that our government is surrendering; http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-n...w-two-deported - and afterall, they are our rights they are surrendering.

Step 1 for a legitimate summary. Link to a completely independent and unbiased view of the order. Under no circumstances link to a political parties website. Thanks.