Germany to push for EU Army *AFTER* British referendum

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e90a080e-1...#axzz47Wzb4nDt

Germany to push for EU Army

Germany delays the push for an EU Army - that would end the Royal Navy, British Army and RAF - until after the British June referendum

Germany is to push for progress towards a European army by advocating a joint headquarters and shared military assets, according to defence plans that could ricochet into Britain’s EU referendum campaign.

Although Berlin has long paid lip-service to forming a “European defence union”, the white paper is one of the most significant for Germany in recent years and may be seized by anti-integration Brexit campaigners as a sign where the bloc is heading.

Initially scheduled to emerge shortly before the June 23 referendum vote but now probably delayed to July, the draft paper seen by the Financial Times outlines steps to gradually co-ordinate Europe’s patchwork of national militaries and embark on permanent co-operation under common structures.

In this and other areas, its tone reflects Germany’s growing clout and confidence in pursuing a foreign policy backed by elements of hard power. Initiatives range from strengthening cyberwarfare abilities to contentious proposals to relax the postwar restrictions on army operations within Germany.

“German security policy has relevance — also far beyond our country,” the paper states. “Germany is willing to join early, decisively and substantially as a driving force in international debates . . . to take responsibility and assume leadership”. Jan Techau, a former defence official at Carnegie Europe, said: “This is the time of a new Germany. This is probably the first time a German defence white paper is something like important.”

At the European level, the paper calls for “the use of all possibilities” available under EU treaties to establish deep co-operation between willing member states, create a joint civil-military headquarters for EU operations, a council of defence ministers, and better co-ordinate the production and sharing of military equipment.

“The creation of a European army is a long way off, but it is a strategic necessity to implement important steps to pave the way towards it now,” wrote Roderich Kiesewetter, a Bundestag foreign affairs committee member, in a recent paper. Berlin is aware that its call for more European defence — long a bugbear of British Eurosceptics — could inadvertently resonate in the UK referendum campaign. Although publication was first expected in early June, this has been delayed to July, according to people familiar with the process.

Liam Fox, former UK defence secretary and Brexit supporter, said that “many in the European project see Nato as an impediment to ever closer union”.
Mr Fox added: “Their every instinct is to move towards European defence co-operation. The problem is that while they are unwilling to spend money, it is a dangerous fantasy that diverts money away from Nato.”

The end of our own independent armed forces and the end of a thousand years of independence. How much more clearer do they need to spell it out before some will wake up and smell the coffee? Even worse, they're delaying pushing ahead with it until AFTER the British referendum.

As my Dad said a few weeks ago... if we do vote to Remain inside, imagine how badly we're going to be treated once they know we're not going to withdraw. They're going to take us for the ride of our lives: both in terms of how much we have to pay in and how many powers they can seize.

Of course @abc; & @The Don; will tell you that I can't debate, I am just making it all up, you should ignore me and that it's just a trade bloc.

Thoughts?

[scottish]

that would end the Royal Navy, British Army and RAF

it wouldn't though would it.

At the European level, the paper calls for “the use of all possibilities” available under EU treaties to establish deep co-operation between willing member states, create a joint civil-military headquarters for EU operations, a council of defence ministers, and better co-ordinate the production and sharing of military equipment.

[-:Undertaker:-]

it wouldn't though would it.

That's the beginning. They're aiming for the creation of a European army through closer initial integration measures like you quoted.

My evidence?

"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of the common defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides." - The Treaty of Lisbon, Article 42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...s_provided_for

The creation of a single European armed land force, air force and naval force is already at prototype stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...ion#Membership

Angela Merkel calls for the creation of a European army

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...gotiation.html

European Commission President Juncker and the German Defence Minister call for an EU army (2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31796337

All this is much the same as the way the single currency (Eurozone) was formed. It was not created immediately, but firstly by steps to peg each European currency to the next so that the next stage would be monetary union. This was known as the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...Rate_Mechanism

The European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) was a system introduced by the European Economic Community on 13 March 1979, as part of the European Monetary System (EMS), to reduce exchange rate variability and achieve monetary stability in Europe, in preparation for Economic and Monetary Union and the introduction of a single currency, the euro, which took place on 1 January 1999.

Now tell me Scot, when the German Chancellor/Defence Minister/Foreign Office/EU treaties & Commission President are all saying it is going to happen and I am simply repeating what they are saying is going to happen, it seems strange for you to post here as though I and the Financial Times are making it up.

Do you know something the rest of Europe does not yet know?

[FlyingJesus]

I don't like the idea of it either way but it definitely looks and sounds a lot more like having a general command for joint EU measures rather than any suggestion of getting rid of anyone's military

The creation of a European army is a long way off

- your own post

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't like the idea of it either way but it definitely looks and sounds a lot more like having a general command for joint EU measures rather than any suggestion of getting rid of anyone's military

That's how the EU always works, it is known as the salami slice method. We've already got intergovernmental NATO.... so why would they require this?

Once there's a joint command structure in place (under the command of whom I ask?) calls will follow to "streamline" the command centre and introduce Qualitied Majority Voting (QMV) by which it only needs a majority to take action. Next to follow will be merging the various national units to make it more "efficient". Then next we'll be told that - probably after a terrorist attack - for the good of security in Europe we need to "work together" more closely aka hand over control of the armed forces to the European Commission. It's the same arguments they gave for the Eurozone repeated all over again whilst they salami slice away at the power of national governments.

They're very serious about this and have been for a long time.

“The world needs a Europe that is capable of deploying military missions." - Former President of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso (September 2012)

“The European Union is a state under construction.” - Elmar Brok, Chairman of the European Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Affairs

“In the end, our goal must be a common European Army." - Wolfgang Schauble, German Foreign Minister (2015)

[FlyingJesus]

That's a hell of a lot of supposition

[-:Undertaker:-]

That's a hell of a lot of supposition

Hardly supposition when it is the people driving the project themselves. Merkel, Barroso and Schauble are hardly low-calibre politicians.

The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of the common defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. (TEU, Article 42)

The treaties have already legally paved the route to an EU army via a common EU defence policy just as the European Exchange Rate Mechanism did so for the European Monetary Union which exists today. Now they're also using the EMU to push ahead with banking, treasury, taxation and eventual political union.

In the academic literature it is commonly (and correctly) known as the 'rachet effect' by which more powers are gradually acquired resulting in the stated aim.

[FlyingJesus]

What when I say that's a lot of supposition I'm quite clearly on about your random predictions on how the future "will" go not the quotes at the end which don't include any predictions at all

[abc]

Military of the European Union already exists. Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union provides for substantial military integration within the institutional framework of the union. The paper has been delayed till after the referendum as it requires unanimous support of all member states and UK's position in the EU is current unclear, hence it is being delayed till after the EU referendum. This would not end the "Royal Navy, British Army and RAF".

What you do not realise is that 37 EU security missions have already been launched since 2003. Further the EU army will "establish deep co-operation between willing member states, create a joint civil-military headquarters for EU operations, a council of defence ministers, and better co-ordinate the production and sharing of military equipment" .... meaning it will not end the British Army, it will mean joint EU missions can be better organised meaning less resources are wasted and coordination will be better.

[-:Undertaker:-]

What when I say that's a lot of supposition I'm quite clearly on about your random predictions on how the future "will" go not the quotes at the end which don't include any predictions at all

My "predictions" are the stated legal aims of the European Union and what it alludes to in the legally binding treaties.

“The transfer by the States from their domestic legal system to the Community legal system of the rights and obligations arising under the Treaty carries with it a permanent limitation of their sovereign rights… against which a subsequent act incompatible with the concept of the Community cannot prevail”

(European Court of Justice Case 6/64)

I mean, the first part of the first ever treaty - the Treaty of Rome - could not be more clear. It states the very clear intention of "ever closer union".

- - - Updated - - -

Military of the European Union already exists. Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union provides for substantial military integration within the institutional framework of the union. The paper has been delayed till after the referendum as it requires unanimous support of all member states and UK's position in the EU is current unclear, hence it is being delayed till after the EU referendum. This would not end the "Royal Navy, British Army and RAF".[

Oh don't give us that rubbish. They're delaying it because they know like all EU power grabs it is not wanted and will damage their prospects of keeping us in.

What you do not realise is that 37 EU security missions have already been launched since 2003. Further the EU army will "establish deep co-operation between willing member states, create a joint civil-military headquarters for EU operations, a council of defence ministers, and better co-ordinate the production and sharing of military equipment" .... meaning it will not end the British Army, it will mean joint EU missions can be better organised meaning less resources are wasted and coordination will be better.

And what did I say? @FlyingJesus;

Next to follow will be merging the various national units to make it more "efficient".