End of the Union? Great Britain sliding into a constitutional crisis

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...d-removed.html

The Disunion Jack: The national flag with Scotland removed

BRITAIN'S Union Flag could be stripped of its distinctive blue if Scotland votes for independence.

Nearly 400 years of history may be lost if the blue and white St Andrew's Saltire is removed. The UK would be left with an odd-looking white flag with two red crosses — the St George's Cross of England and Ireland's Cross of St Patrick. The revelation came as Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond and Deputy PM Nick Clegg clashed over Scots' independence yesterday.

Mr Salmond accused London of trying to "intimidate" Scotland as he arrived in Dublin for a British-Irish Council meeting. He told Irish radio: "Many people in Ireland will remember that sometimes people in leadership positions in big countries find it difficult not to bully small countries."

When the two men appeared at a press conference in Dublin later, Mr Clegg told the Scottish National Party leader not to be so "jumpy". Mr Salmond also invited David Cameron and Mr Clegg to formal talks on an independence vote. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister Martin McGuinness joked that the two sides could hold "peace talks" in Belfast. Education Secretary Michael Gove, a Scot, warned independence would change life in Scotland forever.

I feel so sad its coming to this, we must try everything we can to stop the end of the our nation which has started disintegrating because of the ridiculous Labour Party which brought in devolution in the first place as an attempt to hold power bases around the country when they got booted out of office.. and the Conservative and (& ridiculously named) Unionist Party which has failed to defend the Union and reverse devolution as it should have done.

Meanwhile, our real leaders and government who make 75% of our laws sit back in Brussels rubbing their hands with glee as the country breaks apart making it easier to absord into a new European superstate (see the maps the EU itself published, with Scotland as a 'Euro region' and Wales also, with England divided into Euro regions thus weakening national central governments).

I'm consider myself British and I feel British, i'd hate to see what I see as my nation break up and have its beautiful flag defaced, its Monarchy put at risk and its superb consititution in danger.

This post on the Telegraph sums it up;

For me (a Scot) the most disappointing thing about the pro-union arguments is that they portray the decision are one of pure convenience.

Of course there are many valid arguments about our place and influence in the world, finances and what-have-you.

But, for me, the first and foremost thing about the disaster of independence would be the destruction and loss of what I see as my culture and identity.

I am sure many Scots feel the same, yet this is never brought up in the discussion. The fact that WE are British, that the English & Welsh are our kith and kin, that our cultures and blood are so intermingled as to be one, but with different expression.

I am proud of my Scottish identity and history, but so too I am proud of my British identity and history.

Waterloo, Trafalgar and Rorke's Drift are no less romantic for me than Bannockburn or Stirling bridge.

Give me Tennyson any day over Burns.

I prefer roast beef and yorkshire pudding over haggis.

G&T over whiskey.

The Scotland of SNP myth is just that. Many Scots couldn't tell you the date of St Andrews day. No-one really knows any ceilidh dancing. Essentially no-one speaks Gaelic, or ever did. The Gaelic signage now in all (or most) Scots train stations are alien, bogus and laughable - pure propaganda. If you attempted to use the Gaelic station names to buy a ticket, the conductor wouldn't have a scooby what you were on about and you would be put off the train for taking the p*ss.

Kilts are very modern English invention, made for the purposes of the British Army. No-one wears kilts or tartan, except at the stereotypical "Brigadoon" style of Wedding. Very few had even heard of William Wallace, before Mel Gibson took an interest.

The Uk is the 5th richest country in the world.
It is a permanent member of the UN security council.
It has a permanent UN veto.
It is a prominent EU member, one strong enough not to be eclipsed by France and Germany.
It has far reaching and disproportionate influence, thanks to the Common wealth.
It is a nuclear armed power.
It has modern, strong competent and respected conventional armed forces.
It has a strong and stable independent currency.
Its language is the global language and influence of its culture far reaching.

As part of the UK, that's what Scotland has. Scotland would have literally none of this as a stand alone nation.

What are we to give it all up for?

Ba' Face Salmond his fishing boats and windmills, coupled with no global influence and subjugation from the EU?

Ye Gods. My Grandathers didnt fight in North Africa and Merchant Convoys for this.

Please can we hear more about our precious British identity and culture from the pro-union camp. Lets not pretend it is a mere argument of convenience.

Lets hear also of the global prominence, stability and security we would be throwing away, in favour of being an irrelevant and anonymous socialist basket case. I warn you, Scotland, there will be no spectre of Edward Longshanks / Maggie Thatcher / other favourite English bogey(wo)man to attribute our problems to.

If the battle is not fought decisively, the incompetence of the pro-union parties in Scotland could easily mean we destroy ourselves "by accident". I can easily see independence happening by default, simply because the pro-union politicians made an arse of their arguments.

How far the great have fallen, from a global Empire which is the largest the world had ever seen to the very nation that created that Empire possibly ceasing to exist.

Thoughts?

[Red]

I don't want to be Irish

[xxMATTGxx]

I've voted no and that they should stay in the United Kingdom. Also you can start bidding for Scotland on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISA...#ht_500wt_1156

[FlyingJesus]

It's so ridiculous, surely they don't really believe that they're stable enough as an independant economy? I predict that most of the Scots who vote yes on a referendum for this would, when asked why, have a reason such as "BECAUSE WE HATE THE ENGLISH" rather than anything that actually makes any sense

[cocaine]

scotland will not be able to stand alone as a country. if it were to vote independence, i assume that means they will not receive handouts from the (new) great britain? i do not see scotland as a country able to survive on its own. 2 months tops before it wants back in when the scottish realise they cannot live off exports of haggis

[-:Undertaker:-]

It's so ridiculous, surely they don't really believe that they're stable enough as an independant economy? I predict that most of the Scots who vote yes on a referendum for this would, when asked why, have a reason such as "BECAUSE WE HATE THE ENGLISH" rather than anything that actually makes any sense

Scotland could be a success as an independent nation, if it followed an economic model like Singapore and Hong Kong (both successful small nations/regions).

I feel that the argument must be waged on the merits, history and culture of our nation - from Waterloo to the Empire, from the Empire to World War II right to our unique constitution and values.

[cocaine]

Scotland could be a success as an independent nation, if it followed an economic model like Singapore and Hong Kong (both successful small nations/regions).

I feel that the argument must be waged on the merits, history and culture of our nation - from Waterloo to the Empire, from the Empire to World War II right to our unique constitution and values.

singapore and hong kong (independent respectively of 1965 and 1997) are located in areas where at the time were considered developing economies. the reason the two countries were able to grow rapidly was due to an economic concept known as the catch up effect, where emerging economics grow faster compared to advanced nature simply because they began with little and with a certain amount of investment suddenly had loads of stuff/produced a load of stuff within a certain amount of time. think about differences in wages rates, working conditions and the pure nature of industry in the far east. scotland on it's own would be considered developed since it is (or was) a part of Great Britain and so wouldn't experience such an effect.

[-:Undertaker:-]

singapore and hong kong (independent respectively of 1965 and 1997) are located in areas where at the time were considered developing economies. the reason the two countries were able to grow rapidly was due to an economic concept known as the catch up effect, where emerging economics grow faster compared to advanced nature simply because they began with little and with a certain amount of investment suddenly had loads of stuff/produced a load of stuff within a certain amount of time. think about differences in wages rates, working conditions and the pure nature of industry in the far east. scotland on it's own would be considered developed since it is (or was) a part of Great Britain and so wouldn't experience such an effect.

Singapore and Hong Kong developed because of low tax bases and a free market economy, something both Scotland and even the United Kingdom could mirror much better if they left the European Union, slashed back the state and lowered tax and regulation. Other examples of this include Chile (now the only developed nation in South America), the United Arab Emirates and even China (for example, compare China's amazing growth to sluggish growth in socialist India). Although unlikely in the short to medium term that Scotland would ever slash back its state and follow these models, it is unwise to both laugh at them and decieve ourselves that they would not be able to prosper as an independent nation when they could do so. It is no coincidence that the more free market the economy of a country is, the more prosperous and wealthy that country is.

If Scotland became independent and followed this path, there's no reason why it couldn't be a thumping success - and this comes from an ardent Unionist.

[cocaine]

Singapore and Hong Kong developed because of low tax bases and a free market economy, something both Scotland and even the United Kingdom could mirror much better if they left the European Union, slashed back the state and lowered tax and regulation. Other examples of this include Chile (now the only developed nation in South America), the United Arab Emirates and even China (for example, compare China's amazing growth to sluggish growth in socialist India). Although unlikely in the short to medium term that Scotland would ever slash back its state and follow these models, it is unwise to both laugh at them and decieve ourselves that they would not be able to prosper as an independent nation when they could do so. It is no coincidence that the more free market the economy of a country is, the more prosperous and wealthy that country is.

If Scotland became independent and followed this path, there's no reason why it couldn't be a thumping success - and this comes from an ardent Unionist.

sorry to correct you but while hong kong certainly does have a free market economic, singapore's is one of a state capitalist mixed economy. brazil's economy FAR outweighs chile's.. brazil has the 7th largest economy in the world. heck how could you completely disregard brazil? it's just one rank below britain's, which is 6th. you note that lower taxes provide for a prosperous economy, i'm not sure what taxes you mean? income tax? value added tax? corporation tax? haha

[-:Undertaker:-]

sorry to correct you but while hong kong certainly does have a free market economic, singapore's is one of a state capitalist mixed economy. brazil's economy FAR outweighs chile's.. brazil has the 7th largest economy in the world. heck how could you completely disregard brazil? it's just one rank below britain's, which is 6th.

Hong Kong and Singapore are not the same no, but they both have economic systems which are very free; free of high taxation & free of regulation. If an independent Scotland would be prepared to mirror these countries/regions more closely, then it too would be able to enjoy remarkable economic success - but that would mean an end to big government, something which is incredibly unlikely in the short to medium term.

As for the rest, I am not talking about where these places rank on the biggest economies list - i'm talking about wealth per person in each country. While Brazil is beginning to develop, its development has not yet reached the likes of Chile because of its late adoption and continuing adopting of free market economics whereas Chile quickly got through with this under the Pinochet regime during the 1980s. In very much the same way that the economy of China is bigger than that of the United Kingdom, yet per person we are much wealthier.

My overall point is, that it is unwise to delude ourselves and Scottish voters that 'Scotland couldnt be a success economically' when it could, however unlikely that may be at this moment in time.

you note that lower taxes provide for a prosperous economy, i'm not sure what taxes you mean? income tax? value added tax? corporation tax? haha

All taxes, whenever government taxes - it removes money from the real economy, the private sector. Likewise whenever the government regulates, it again removes money from the private sector.