Monarchy or Republic

[UKIP]

I expect the government to read through the material, debate freely, listen to their constituents concerns and not be influenced by what the Guardian, The Daily Mail, The Telegraph, Sky News and BBC News say. The media is to inform the public NOT to inform the MPs of the public. The referendum vote in the house of commons was not close to passing, with many conservatives against it, including K Clarke.

The EU is seen as a safety net to Iceland, a union that will help them if they fail, again.


What are you on about!? It's called a FREE MARKET. A FREE MARKET. That's what the whole EU is ABOUT. It's about removing barriers of trade and services between nations. UKIP know f-all about the economy and what's best for trade. They just appeal to old-romantics. The EU is our biggest trading partner because of our membership. It is the largest single economic market in the world, larger than the USA. A truely free-market world wouldn't have borders at ALL. A Planned or Controlled Economy is wear there is no private business and the government determines who produces, in what quantity and where it goes. Who is going to set up a factory in the UK where there is no-one to trade with. THINK IT THROUGH.

One of the only things that isn't very free about it is the CAP, which is done to protect farmers' livelihoods. If we didn't have the CAP there wouldn't be enough food to go around! The world-price for food is TOO LOW for farmers in this country to compete with. There would be no milk and no break without CAP.


The BNP were polled yesterday at 4% of the vote. UKIP higher, but behind the Greens, Lib Dems etc. It isn't a large majority at all. Why do you think the 'Big 3' get in so much. It's because they are VOTED IN and you can't accept that. The Daily Mail doesn't speak for the nation, votes do.


No it doesn't! The tax DOESN'T out way it at all. Infact, it increases wealth. When new roads are built in a new area, the local economy grows and grows. It's called careful spending, to trigger an economic phenomenon known as the Multiplier Effect.


In my eyes, it's a better system.


They were removed because it's called negotiation. Someone tries to sell you a dirty car, then you say 'clean the car before i buy it, add 6 months insurance and get rid of the dints' and then you get the deal. You aren't buying the dirty car anymore, you're buying a slightly different version, a better version.


Technically, they aren't the same thing. They voted on the constitution, where this is the Lisbon Treaty. Quite a lot of it is the same, but not 100%. I guess the French and Dutch Government thought it was different enough to not warrant a Referendum.


If UKIP poll more than 50% of the vote in June, maybe we'll have a case to leave the EU, as that would be a majority.

Your using the media argument again to defend your views, people buy newspapers because they appeal to their own views. I read the Daily Mail because I choose to, it agrees with my views and therefore I buy it. It is very simple, unless you'd like to start restricting the press in which case we're really entering a socialist state.

The EU is seen as a safety net to Iceland, that still doesn't hide the fact we and most other countries do not agree or want the EU.

Your making it out as if we didn't trade with Europe before the EU was set up, again it is just more 'EU-if we weren't in the EU we would collapse' nonsense. The EU isn't a free market, if it was a free market it wouldn't have restrictions on prices and produce, therefore it is a command economy. It is centrally planned and fisherman and farmers do not like it one bit, hence the decimation of British apple farms in the 1970's overnight and the French fishing protests only a few weeks back. I have thought it through, and I think the farmers and fishermen who actually do the work rather than faceless eurocrats know what is best, don't you?

More rubbish about restrictions helping us, i'm sorry but it doesn't wash at all. I do not see non-EU countries not having enough food because they are not in the EU. The EU restricts our farming and fishing, therefore if we left we could grow our own, how its supposed to be done and has been done long before this faceless organisation was set up.

Why are they not higher? - because of PR it is simple as that. Those who do not vote are either fed up with the main three and see no point in voting because thanks to our FPTP system it is virtually impossible for UKIP and other parties to get a foothold. Who mentioned the Daily Mail here, it seems that is the only argument you have left now is to attack the Daily Mail, then again, it is one of the most popular newspapers in this country which goes to show, people agree with what they are reading.

The economic miracle you point to, is that the Soviet Union or 1970's Britain, or even North Korea? - yes they are doing/did excellent aren't/didn't they, starving population with economics which eventually led to their collapse. You would love us to go through the 1970's again, and then, just maybe, you'd realise what high tax does to a countries economy. If you would like to see business leave this country and have a repeat of mass strikes, rubbish piling up on the streets, power cuts and dead bodies rotting in the morgues then your thinking the right way.

If its called negotiation when is our negotiation going to come from the EU on whether we even want to be in the EU? - its not called negotiation, its called spin doctoring, the same thing but dressed up differently.

Various people, even supporters of the two reform proposals have admitted they are the same thing, just dressed up in a different way. The French and Netherlandral governments did not hold a referendum this time because the EU wouldn't want it and they themselves know it would fail yet again. If the EU want to be free and negotiate, then they are welcome to come anytime and bring a referendum to the people of Europe asking whether we even want to be in this waste of time, good for nothing, controlling and near-dictorial so called 'union'. Of course it will never happen because they know it will lose and they will continue to hide behind the same 'we elect MP's to make our decision' argument that you yourself are so keen on using.

Yes maybe we'll get some more UKIP/other parties into there and even Westminister with some backbone, infact instead of waiting for a 50% majority in the European Parliaments, heres a better idea put forward by your own party in the 2005 General Election; hold a referendum.

[Caution]

This is how I see it right.

The UK Monarchy has been around for many many years, it's been passed generation to generation within the Royal Family. Yes, we pay tax money towards keeping them there; but people really don't realise how much work they actually do carry out. Because they don't do a lot.:S

HM Queen Elizabeth II is the head of what, 53 Commonwealth Naitons? Thats pretty impressive considering many people "don't want a Monarchy" but yet, the still choose to have her as Head of State. She's 84 next year, she's been Queen since the age of 25. She's given up so much just to take the title; let alone the Duties & other things that she has to carry out as Head of State. Her Maj has attended EVERY single Trooping The Colour since it began; compaired to Queen Victoria (who only attended 1 in her whole life) it's amazing.

I wouldn't want to do her job, yeah you'd have everyone salute you every day, bow down to you or whatever but surely it'd get boring. You'd have to watch what you do, be careful of what you say, make sure you say the right things; wear the right things, eat the right things, look like a Monarch etc etc. The list goes on and on.

If we get rid of the Monarchy, LOADS of things go with it. For instance; United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen Ireland... what would that be? The Republic of Great Britian? The title of Royal would dissapear from everything; Royal Navy, Royal Air Force, Queens Colour Squadron RAF, Royal Fleet Air Arm... the list goes on. It'd cause so much hassle just to get rid of the Royal Family. Think, they'd have to become a normal citizen again? Dames, Sir's, Lords, Saints, OBEs, MBEs, KBEs, they'd all dissapear as they're awards from a Monarch. It's rediculous, the list is endless.

What a shame!:rolleyes: You're correct, it is ridiculous how there are people living in a palace paid for by citizens hard earned cash.

I hope to god that this country has some sence still left in here somewhere. The country has gone mad. I'd love to see the Monarchy remain throughout my entire lifetime, and through my Grandkids etc. It's part of what makes me proud to be British, not Welsh or Scottish or English...

I lol'd, I personally would hate to be classed as a 'Brit', despite the fact I sadly am. It's probably because the National Anthem says 'Rebellious Scots to crush' BRITISH.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!

Those are my beliefs and I'm aware haven't took any political considerations into it, so flame me. I don't want to be classed as a Brit and sing the national anthem which says Scots should be crushed.

[alexxxxx]

Your using the media argument again to defend your views, people buy newspapers because they appeal to their own views. I read the Daily Mail because I choose to, it agrees with my views and therefore I buy it. It is very simple, unless you'd like to start restricting the press in which case we're really entering a socialist state.

The media is there for the people. If you choose to read the in-factual, nazi-supporting, 'let's make up a story and hope we don't get sued' daily mail, then I guess it's your choice. But I'd argue that reading a newspaper because it appeals to your views is a terrible practice as it doesn't educate yourself about the world in a neutral way. I read the Guardian, Metro (Daily Mail Sister-Paper), Daily Mail Online, Telegraph and Independent Online. A mixture. Don't be stupid, under the 'socialist state of the 1970s when there was rubbish on the streets, dead people left to rot and those pesky unions controlling the country I believe freedom of the press was still allowed.

Your making it out as if we didn't trade with Europe before the EU was set up, again it is just more 'EU-if we weren't in the EU we would collapse' nonsense. The EU isn't a free market, if it was a free market it wouldn't have restrictions on prices and produce, therefore it is a command economy. It is centrally planned and fisherman and farmers do not like it one bit, hence the decimation of British apple farms in the 1970's overnight and the French fishing protests only a few weeks back. I have thought it through, and I think the farmers and fishermen who actually do the work rather than faceless eurocrats know what is best, don't you?

More rubbish about restrictions helping us, i'm sorry but it doesn't wash at all. I do not see non-EU countries not having enough food because they are not in the EU. The EU restricts our farming and fishing, therefore if we left we could grow our own, how its supposed to be done and has been done long before this faceless organisation was set up.

The USA uses subsidies and uses similar schemes to the EU to keep farmers in business and to keep the price of food high. THE USA ARE COMMAND ECONOMY TOO? OMG COMMUNISMMMMM. It needs to be done. If it was left to the free market food prices would fall through the floor, putting people out of business. Alot of farmers rely on EU subsidies to keep them afloat, without them they would leave the business. My parents' friend run a farm and they can barely keep afloat now.

Say a car manufacturer is looking to build a new factory in Europe. They narrow it down to Germany, France or the UK. Suddenly, the UK pull out of the EU and France puts up import taxes on cars coming into their country from non-EU states. Oh, I guess they'll build the cars in Germany or France now, seeing as the added expense of tax. Less jobs for the UK, less consumption, less jobs etc. Downward spiral. The EU fines countries who defy their free-trade. Like when France banned British Beef imports, even though there were no problems with it. The EU saw this as a protectionist measure and fined them.

Why are they not higher? - because of PR it is simple as that. Those who do not vote are either fed up with the main three and see no point in voting because thanks to our FPTP system it is virtually impossible for UKIP and other parties to get a foothold. Who mentioned the Daily Mail here, it seems that is the only argument you have left now is to attack the Daily Mail, then again, it is one of the most popular newspapers in this country which goes to show, people agree with what they are reading.

Ridiculous statement. It's not low 'because they're fed up,' it's low because 'no-one wants to vote for them.'

The economic miracle you point to, is that the Soviet Union or 1970's Britain, or even North Korea? - yes they are doing/did excellent aren't/didn't they, starving population with economics which eventually led to their collapse. You would love us to go through the 1970's again, and then, just maybe, you'd realise what high tax does to a countries economy. If you would like to see business leave this country and have a repeat of mass strikes, rubbish piling up on the streets, power cuts and dead bodies rotting in the morgues then your thinking the right way.

If you know anything about economics, which I'm starting to feel like you know very little, and I don't know that much, apart from an A at AS Level because it's noticed by EVERY GOVERNMENT NOW. It's not a socialist thing, although a bit Keynesian, but it does work to stimulate growth in aggregate demand and therefore real GDP.

If its called negotiation when is our negotiation going to come from the EU on whether we even want to be in the EU? - its not called negotiation, its called spin doctoring, the same thing but dressed up differently.

You do have your say, every time you, or your parents, tick 'conservative' on the ballot. They are pro-EU, maybe they don't like some of the things they say, but ultimately they are pro-EU.

Various people, even supporters of the two reform proposals have admitted they are the same thing, just dressed up in a different way. The French and Dutch governments did not hold a referendum this time because the EU wouldn't want it and they themselves know it would fail yet again. If the EU want to be free and negotiate, then they are welcome to come anytime and bring a referendum to the people of Europe asking whether we even want to be in this waste of time, good for nothing, controlling and near-dictorial so called 'union'. Of course it will never happen because they know it will lose and they will continue to hide behind the same 'we elect MP's to make our decision' argument that you yourself are so keen on using.

They are similar with a lot of the text exactly the same word-for-word. I haven't read the constitution or the lisbon treaty so I don't know what the differences are.

Who dictates? Who dictates? This isn't like the USSR where Russia was the one in control. This is a union between nations, a voluntary union, where the presidency switches between nations. We had it fairly recently and it is the czech's turn now.

Yes maybe we'll get some more UKIP/other parties into there and even Westminister with some backbone, infact instead of waiting for a 50% majority in the European Parliaments, heres a better idea put forward by your own party in the 2005 General Election; hold a referendum.

Who said I'm a labour supporter? You've been assuming this all the way through? I'm actually siding with LibDems at the moment, Pro-EU, against ID cards, Freedom Bill. As Edward Davey of the LibDems said "This is a treaty which genuine Euro-sceptics should be coming to praise - not to bury." because it makes is easier for people to actually leave the EU.

[.:Admiral:.]

Monarchy or Republic

Where in that sentance does it say anything about the EU, or if you want to leave the EU? If you wanna argue about the flaiming EU, make another thread. Stop having a little hissy fit about some poxy stars on a flag and start thinking about your own country first.

[alexxxxx]

Monarchy or Republic

Where in that sentance does it say anything about the EU, or if you want to leave the EU? If you wanna argue about the flaiming EU, make another thread. Stop having a little hissy fit about some poxy stars on a flag and start thinking about your own country first.

Eh mate. Why don't you just leave this thread? It was Undertakers to begin with, and turned into a debate, which veered off into another topic. UKIP is Undertaker.

It's not all about the EU anyway this debate, some of it is about other topics.

Cheers.

[.:Admiral:.]

Yeah but most of what your saying is. Don't call me Mate either, won't get you very far.

I was just pointing out a fact that most people would have realised if they were following it?

[UKIP]

The media is there for the people. If you choose to read the in-factual, nazi-supporting, 'let's make up a story and hope we don't get sued' daily mail, then I guess it's your choice. But I'd argue that reading a newspaper because it appeals to your views is a terrible practice as it doesn't educate yourself about the world in a neutral way. I read the Guardian, Metro (Daily Mail Sister-Paper), Daily Mail Online, Telegraph and Independent Online. A mixture. Don't be stupid, under the 'socialist state of the 1970s when there was rubbish on the streets, dead people left to rot and those pesky unions controlling the country I believe freedom of the press was still allowed.

The USA uses subsidies and uses similar schemes to the EU to keep farmers in business and to keep the price of food high. THE USA ARE COMMAND ECONOMY TOO? OMG COMMUNISMMMMM. It needs to be done. If it was left to the free market food prices would fall through the floor, putting people out of business. Alot of farmers rely on EU subsidies to keep them afloat, without them they would leave the business. My parents' friend run a farm and they can barely keep afloat now.

Say a car manufacturer is looking to build a new factory in Europe. They narrow it down to Germany, France or the UK. Suddenly, the UK pull out of the EU and France puts up import taxes on cars coming into their country from non-EU states. Oh, I guess they'll build the cars in Germany or France now, seeing as the added expense of tax. Less jobs for the UK, less consumption, less jobs etc. Downward spiral. The EU fines countries who defy their free-trade. Like when France banned British Beef imports, even though there were no problems with it. The EU saw this as a protectionist measure and fined them.

Ridiculous statement. It's not low 'because they're fed up,' it's low because 'no-one wants to vote for them.'

If you know anything about economics, which I'm starting to feel like you know very little, and I don't know that much, apart from an A at AS Level because it's noticed by EVERY GOVERNMENT NOW. It's not a socialist thing, although a bit Keynesian, but it does work to stimulate growth in aggregate demand and therefore real GDP.

You do have your say, every time you, or your parents, tick 'conservative' on the ballot. They are pro-EU, maybe they don't like some of the things they say, but ultimately they are pro-EU.

They are similar with a lot of the text exactly the same word-for-word. I haven't read the constitution or the lisbon treaty so I don't know what the differences are.

Who dictates? Who dictates? This isn't like the USSR where Russia was the one in control. This is a union between nations, a voluntary union, where the presidency switches between nations. We had it fairly recently and it is the czech's turn now.

Who said I'm a labour supporter? You've been assuming this all the way through? I'm actually siding with LibDems at the moment, Pro-EU, against ID cards, Freedom Bill. As Edward Davey of the LibDems said "This is a treaty which genuine Euro-sceptics should be coming to praise - not to bury." because it makes is easier for people to actually leave the EU.

Your doing it again, the "nazi supporting Daily Mail" - as far as I know we don't have tributes to Hitler and the Third Reich in the Daily Mail. That was the 1970's, the winter of discontent and so forth. That is why we were known in Europe as the sick man of Europe. If you made me read one thousand Guardian newspapers I still wouldn't believe anything in it, because its a left wing newspaper which constantly shows Global Warming in a biased matter.

That is one country, therefore they do wholely what benefits the United States of America, whereas the EU does whats best for the whole of the European Union, rather than the United Kingdom. You just said it yourself, if America can use suitable farming control then why can't we, that has completly destroyed the argument for farm and fisheries control from the EU, let alone also handing over sovereignty as well as billions and billions to a union people don't even want to be in. I watched a program in which many farmers stated that overnight from joining the pre-EU farms closed instantly as cheaper prices from EU imports brought the prices of apples, tomatoes crashing through the roof.

If a car company wants to build a car company in Europe which they seldom seem to do now, they would mostly likely pick Germany due to it being the main industrial power in Europe, not because it is in a red-tape burocratic EU.

That is not free-trade, that is breaking so called EU-law which is a disgrace. I'm sorry but France has every right as a sovereign country to ban any imports it wishes even if I disagree with their decision.

It isn't a ridiculous statement, it is perfectly true. That is why voting figures for the three main parties is very low because people are fed up with them and if they vote for another party it is likely to make little difference.

Who said I needed an A Level in economics to know a simple common sense fact about business and socialism, you only have to look towards the Soviet Union, North Korea, Peoples Republic of China under Mao to see what socialism has done.

They simply don't, as we live in Liberal Democrat and Labour strongholds (I don't even think the Conservatives bother standing here) so if we voted Conservative or any other party which didn't win that seat, it would be a wasted vote. That is why the FPTP system is wrong and doesn't reflect the number of votes compared with the number of seats.

It may be a voluntary union, but its not democratic as it hasn't asked us the simple question of whether we want it to exist or not, and you have ignored the fact that the treaty has been turned down by three countries so far via referendum, and only because they had a referendum which reflects the publics opinion and not the political elites opinion.

The Czechs have the presidency now, and at a good time aswell because their excellent President Klaus I believe he's called, is trying every measure to stop this Lisbon treaty going ahead and good on him, if only we had someone with a backbone like him in our government and across Europe, because we know as soon as that happens the EU is finished, exactly why the EU was over the moon when Margaret Thatcher resigned from office.

The Liberal Democrats can bang on about the EU as much as they want, the party is socialism with a smile and its well known for it. It appears that the only argument for signing is now some 'pullout' clause, so i'd ask why do we need to sign up and sign away more sovereign powers for some pullout clause which the EU knows will most likely never be used.

Who dictates? - the European Commision and the European Parliament, its very simple. They can tell Westminister Parliament to pay a fine, or to implement more red tape/laws - that is dictation.

You've previously said you are a Labour supporter in the past. Anyways, as I have said previously, you cannot justify the EU as at any time when it has been put to a public vote is has been turned down, that is why this time the only country which held a referendum was the country which legally had to hold a referendum over it - doesn't that just show what the EU is like, it cannot and refuses to take 'NO' for an answer.

Monarchy or Republic

Where in that sentance does it say anything about the EU, or if you want to leave the EU? If you wanna argue about the flaiming EU, make another thread. Stop having a little hissy fit about some poxy stars on a flag and start thinking about your own country first.

Don't get involved then, very simple. Discussions like the one me and alex are having are far better than comments like the one you have just posted which is intended to stir up an argument.

[Bun]

there's just one thing i don't understand about UKIP. if they are so imposed to the EU, why do they still sit in it, reaping the benefits? even standing for the election is hypocritical enough.

[.:Admiral:.]

The Government need to sort themselfs out first anyway, before they even start to worry about the Country that they lead. Bunch of muppets.

[UKIP]

there's just one thing i don't understand about UKIP. if they are so imposed to the EU, why do they still sit in it, reaping the benefits? even standing for the election is hypocritical enough.

To defend British interests for the meantime, then they can build on leaving the European Union. The decision was taken many years ago by UKIP to involve itself rather than distance itself from the issue. It isn't hypocritical, they are fighting for us in that parliament, better than the other three are doing, mainly the Liberal Democrats and Labour.