The BNP - Good or Bad?

[Ardemax]

Denying the holocaust isn't directly insulting anybody, people will get insulted but thats life, just like they wold get insulted by my view that the invasion of Iraq was illegal and wasted soliders lives for nothing.

..so yes, finally you are understanding the meaning of freedom of speech and that is doesn't work one way, it has to work both ways.

I'm agreeing with Flyduo here.

Although denying the holocaust doesn't seem like you're insulting anyone, you're actually insulting millions.

Think about it, you're family has been killed then some guy comes along and says it's nothing but lies.
Would you feel happy? No of course you wouldn't. You'd feel insulted because someone who obviously have no knowledge of WW2 has just said it.

This is where freedom of speech must be controlled.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Ok firstly Labour are NOT socialist anymore. Secondly it was mainly the conservatives that had an immigration policy based on race with politicians like Enoch Powell. Even if Labour did have one then why should they be banned, they don't now, if they still had it then I believe they should. I'd also like to point out that I am not a Labour supporter, I vote for the Liberal Democrats.

What about insulting the lives of 6 Million dead people who were unquestionably killed by the Nazis? Or how about their families who still exist today? How would you feel if all of your family and friends were ruthlessly massacred systematically in a "Death factory" and then a large group of people denied that they had died? You are frankly ignorant about the effects of events like this.

Enoch Powell was right, he warned of the conflicts and problems to come with immigration and he will be proved right in time, its already happened in France and it'll happen here. Multi-culturalism does not work if its not truly multi-cultural, allowing a whole area to become a sub-province of Poland is not multi-cultural. The immigration of post-war to around the 1980s was multi-cultural and it worked, however the immigration now is not working.

On the holocaust, i'd feel what anybody with any knowledge or value of democracy would feel, the holocaust happened but some people don't agree with that, just like I don't agree that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Those people in the death camps died because their freedom of speech/religion was taken away from them, let us please please not make the same mistake.

I'm agreeing with Flyduo here.

Although denying the holocaust doesn't seem like you're insulting anyone, you're actually insulting millions.

Think about it, you're family has been killed then some guy comes along and says it's nothing but lies.
Would you feel happy? No of course you wouldn't. You'd feel insulted because someone who obviously have no knowledge of WW2 has just said it.

This is where freedom of speech must be controlled.

Oh my god, well it isn't freedom of speech if its restricted! - the Holocaust is a historical event, just like the Cultural Revolution, the Khamer Rogue, 9/11, Boer Wars, World War I, World War II, Japanese invasion of Manchuria - ALL historical events, people have different opinions on them and should be allowed to state them - that is WHY we fought Adolf Hitler.

I wouldn't feel insulted, i'd feel they are wrong in their opinion but i'd accept it, because my family died because of freedom of speech/religion/seuxality being taken away from them. I'd feel proud and I do to a degree that we live or did live in a country which was different from Europe, a country in which you could voice your opinion without being slapped down by the state.

[Ardemax]

Oh my god, well it isn't freedom of speech if its restricted! - the Holocaust is a historical event, just like the Cultural Revolution, the Khamer Rogue, 9/11, Boer Wars, World War I, World War II, Japanese invasion of Manchuria - ALL historical events, people have different opinions on them and should be allowed to state them - that is WHY we fought Adolf Hitler.

I wouldn't feel insulted, i'd feel they are wrong in their opinion but i'd accept it, because my family died because of freedom of speech/religion/seuxality being taken away from them. I'd feel proud and I do to a degree that we live or did live in a country which was different from Europe, a country in which you could voice your opinion without being slapped down by the state.

You'd feel proud?

You'd actually feel proud that your families death was being called a lie, but you'd be proud because freedom of speech is so amazing?

[-:Undertaker:-]

You'd feel proud?

You'd actually feel proud that your families death was being called a lie, but you'd be proud because freedom of speech is so amazing?

Yes, because i'd live in a land in which they did not and died a horrible death for expressing their religion/freedom of speech, as I said before - I may not agree with the idea that the holocaust didn't happen but I agree with the idea of democracy and his right to state his opinion.

[Ardemax]

Yes, because i'd live in a land in which they did not and died a horrible death for expressing their religion/freedom of speech, as I said before - I may not agree with the idea that the holocaust didn't happen but I agree with the idea of democracy and his right to state his opinion.

But if you're saying that, then you haven't answered how you would feel?

[-:Undertaker:-]

It would depend on the person, personally i'd say to them it did happen and i'd want to correct them - but as I said, I respect their right to say what their take on this historical event is as that was the whole point in world war II, to defend democracy and stop more of these camps opening across Eurasia.

[Ardemax]

It would depend on the person, personally i'd say to them it did happen and i'd want to correct them - but as I said, I respect their right to say what their take on this historical event is as that was the whole point in world war II, to defend democracy and stop more of these camps opening across Eurasia.

Yes, they can decide what they take on the historical event, but I feel that they should at least admit that it did actually happen.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, because that is their belief that it didn't happen.

[Tash.]

I agree. If someone breaks OUR rules, they don't have the right to stay in OUR country. Simple.

Yeah. They passed through countries they could've stayed in.

So what you're actually saying in the top bit is that anyone who breaks the rules of Great Britain should be deported? I don't think so.

And at the bottom one, I hardly think that if you came from a war torn country and your life was in peril that you'd want to only be able to choose from a neighbouring nation to grant you sanctuary. I honestly think people need to at least attempt to put themselves in these peoples shoes before they say something so ignorant.

They just want us to be what we were in the olden days. Why should we let people in our country, use our NHS we fund, and give them benefits when we're in a financial struggle ourself.

It's a little like having a baby, think of this. Someone has a baby, starts bringing it up, then goes out of work. Unemployed. They have another baby, still unemployed, struggling with money. Then ANOTHER child, barely coping. We're taking on too much we can handle.

Kick them out, rebuild our economical background, get out of the recession, then maybe less-restrict the borders again.

Again, at the bold bit. That happens alot with 'british' people, infact in my experience this is alot more true with the white british population than any other. Immigrants often take jobs which nobody here actually wants and they take alot less money for it. Maybe we should look at our own 'british' population before we start to attack people who have emigrated here.

Granted, but if someone wants to believe a historical event didn't happen, that comes under freedom of speech. Otherwise you may as well say it should be illegal to deny that the birth of Jesus Christ ever happened.

The two things aren't comparable. There is no scientific nor pictoral evidence whatsoever that the birth of Jesus occured. There are eye witness accounts of the holocaust, soldiers of the Nazi party have even admitted to it. So to deny that it happened is ignorance at best. Freedom of speech is not there for people to hide behind when they want to have controversial opinions which can hurt others feelings. It is designed to allow someone to disagree with an opinion, not an actual historical fact.

Threatening someone and freedom of speech are totally different things, the British National Party have not threatened anyone. As shown by your first line which says anyone who sides with the BNP is in your words 'unstable' - shows yet again that if anybody dares disagree with the left they are automatically rascist, crazy, homophobic, xenphobic or evil.

I'm sorry but you wouldn't find it threatening to you and your life here in Britain if the BNP had a plan to 'voluntarily' repatriate you to wherever you descended? Even if you were infact born here, yet you happened to have foreign born parents? And even if they let you stay, if they wanted to 'voluntarily' move your parents out of the country? I don't think so.

That's called a dictatorship hunny.

Please don't be dense. Lack of freedom of speech is only one part of a dictatorship and its not the key one. A dictatorship controls every aspect of a persons life, not just what they say.

..then that quite simply means that you do not value freedom of speech just as Hitler didn't and that an opinion that is different to yours, in your opinion, should be banned/not permitted.

It doesn't. Hitlers opinions were based purely on that, he spread hatred through what he said. Nowhere did he say that an opinion different to his was wrong, he merely said it was wrong to deny that millions of people lost their lives unjustly and cruelly.

Denying the holocaust isn't directly insulting anybody, people will get insulted but thats life, just like they wold get insulted by my view that the invasion of Iraq was illegal and wasted soliders lives for nothing.

Yes it is, it's denying the fact that people's relatives (grandparents, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters etc) died in camps after being forced to work. It's insulting to their memory to deny this. In Germany today it is actually an offence punishable by a prison term to deny that the holocaust happened. I personally think that this is a bit extreme but thats how bad the German people feel about this event in their history. Do you not think that they'd deny this if they could? It doesn't exactly put them in a great light historically that they elected the person who incited such hatred.



And finally, my opinion. The BNP spread hatred and I think it's correct to liken them to the Nazi Party. They are blaming Britains current woes on one part of our society, when infact its probably got very little to do with it. They attract voters who have no actual knowledge of politics and who live in deprived areas of Britain which have been neglected so to me their similarities to the Nazi party are startling and frankly its frightening that they have been allowed the freedom to speak about such issues openly.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It may be considered an insult by those people, but why do you not understand that that is freedom of speech?

If somebody bans a historical opinion because they do not agree with it, that is dictorial, its not democratic and its not what we fought Adolf Hitler for.

..with replies like these, it really make me wonder why we even bothered.