The BNP - Good or Bad?

[Seatherny]

Who went up to someone's family members and said they did not do anything heroic, brave and fought for what's right? :S

Hang on a second... I thought you were talking about the holocaust??? Now it seems (even more) that you're just twisting even your own words to try and scrape together a valid argument.

The fact is, freedom of speech gives someone the right to choose not to believe that something we believe as a historical event, did not happen. It has nothing to do with approaching and abusing anybody or anything. Honestly mate, just give up.

Anyone who denies the holocaust is doing it. Its like me going "hey 9/11 never happened". "hey London tube didn't really get bombed. it never happened".
Now suppose you lost someone in the London bombings, you wont mind if someone kept denying the terrorist attacks which killed your family?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Anyone who denies the holocaust is doing it. Its like me going "hey 9/11 never happened". "hey London tube didn't really get bombed. it never happened".
Now suppose you lost someone in the London bombings, you wont mind if someone kept denying the terrorist attacks which killed your family?

No we wouldn't really care, because in life we don't agree with a lot of things but we get by with it. Its called reality.

[Seatherny]

No we wouldn't really care, because in life we don't agree with a lot of things but we get by with it. Its called reality.

You say its called reality but what you say is NOT how you will react in that situation.
If you lose someone you loved alot to a terrorist attack e.g. London bombings, or the holocaust and someone constantly denied it on nation TV, you WOULD care. EVERYONE would. You wont just go "I don't really care if people deny what happened to him/her".
Now that's called reality.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You say its called reality but what you say is NOT how you will react in that situation.
If you lose someone you loved alot to a terrorist attack e.g. London bombings, or the holocaust and someone constantly denied it on nation TV, you WOULD care. EVERYONE would. You wont just go "I don't really care if people deny what happened to him/her".
Now that's called reality.

That is reality, because while i'd strongly disagree with them/think they were a muppet for their views - I realise I live in a democracy.

[Seatherny]

That is reality, because while i'd strongly disagree with them/think they were a muppet for their views - I realise I live in a democracy.

But you said you wouldn't care.
There is a difference between not caring what someone says and disagreeing with them.

You may say you won't care, but believe me, if it did, you won't be happy at all. Say someone bombs Liverpool tomorrow, kills millions of people and I say "meh it never happened." etc, you are saying you wont care? Sure.

[Black_Apalachi]

Anyone who denies the holocaust is doing it. Its like me going "hey 9/11 never happened". "hey London tube didn't really get bombed. it never happened".
Now suppose you lost someone in the London bombings, you wont mind if someone kept denying the terrorist attacks which killed your family?

That's not what he was saying though. He was saying it was the same as going to a funeral and laughing. Even though your examples are slightly more relevant, it could still be argued that the holocaust wasn't broadcast all over the world on TV as it happened.

Anyway to answer your question, obviously I would mind if someone treated my family like that if I were in that situation. HOWEVER I would accept their point of view because I would realise I only gain the right to freedom of speech if I allow others to express it themselves. Even though I'd feel anger and pity towards them, the point is (as I've been saying for about 15 pages) is that they have the right to believe that if they want.

[Ardemax]

Laughing at a funeral is different to somebody questioning the existance of the gas chambers/the numbers killed in a historical event.

It's the same disrespect tbh. If someone denies the holocaust then they're going against whoever died in it.

Who went up to someone's family members and said they did not do anything heroic, brave and fought for what's right? :S

Hang on a second... I thought you were talking about the holocaust??? Now it seems (even more) that you're just twisting even your own words to try and scrape together a valid argument.

The fact is, freedom of speech gives someone the right to choose not to believe that something we believe as a historical event, did not happen. It has nothing to do with approaching and abusing anybody or anything. Honestly mate, just give up.

It's funny how in one post you target me, don't let me reply, then tell me to give up.
Some "democracy" this is.
Jews and anyone against the state in World War 2, were mass murdered. They had to die because someone wanted world domination. They died for us. They didn't die because they wanted to, I think that's obvious.

It may be morally wrong in your opinion but its somebody elses opinion and they should be allowed to air it. If people believe in the holocaust then they do, if people don't believe in the holocaust then they dont - simple as that. On the media, the media is not paid by the ruling elite to target one man (well then again there is the BBC/Guardian). I'm afraid people know the truth and we don't need the nanny state to tell us otherwise.

Actually I entered this discussion saying that to make it illegal to deny the holocaust would be against freedom of speech, since then i've had you, SauravG and Ardemax (no suprise there) try to prove something against me, when infact it appears that all along we've agreed on the same thing.

That, again, is your opinion. I think Labour is stupid, dilusional and I think the European Union is an insult to all those who died in world war II, however instead of saying point blankly 'they/he is wrong' - I debate it and prove my point. Instead of insisting on a witch hunt against Nick Griffin, why don't you and everyone else actually prove him wrong for once.

..but the sad truth is that Nick Griffin has more of a moral backbone than the ruling Lib/Lab/Con elite, thats why they are all so terribly afraid to debate with him.

No it isn't the same, stop pretending its anywhere near the same.

So the European Union is an insult, but deniers of the holocaust are perfectly fine?

Answer me honestly, if your close relatives were killed in gas chambers, you wouldn't be upset? (You said you wouldn't care?) So if someone went up to you and said they didn't die there, it's all a joke, they lied to us all and it's a complete fake, then decided to mock you because you still believed it happened. Are you honestly not going to care?

[Black_Apalachi]

... It's funny how in one post you target me, don't let me reply, then tell me to give up.
Some "democracy" this is.
Jews and anyone against the state in World War 2, were mass murdered. They had to die because someone wanted world domination. They died for us. They didn't die because they wanted to, I think that's obvious. ...

What? :S
1. How did I target you?
2. I can't stop you replying.
3. I said give up because you keep repeating the same rubbish and won't accept an explanation for the argument against it.
4. Once again I will state that I do not dispute the occurrence of the holocaust.

[Ardemax]

What? :S
1. How did I target you?
2. I can't stop you replying.
3. I said give up because you keep repeating the same rubbish and won't accept an explanation for the argument against it.
4. Once again I will state that I do not dispute the occurrence of the holocaust.

Well it sounded by you saying "Give up." and that I should drop my arguement I thought that was targetted at me, my bad.

I'm sorry, but repeating the same rubbish?

Isn't anyone guilty of that aswell? oh yeah..

[-:Undertaker:-]

But you said you wouldn't care.
There is a difference between not caring what someone says and disagreeing with them.

You may say you won't care, but believe me, if it did, you won't be happy at all. Say someone bombs Liverpool tomorrow, kills millions of people and I say "meh it never happened." etc, you are saying you wont care? Sure.

How can I make this anymore clearer?

I would not like it but I would accept that I live in a democracy and people have a right to freedom of speech.

It's the same disrespect tbh. If someone denies the holocaust then they're going against whoever died in it.

Wrong, laughing at a funeral is not the same as believing the holocaust was exaggerated.

It's funny how in one post you target me, don't let me reply, then tell me to give up.

Some "democracy" this is.
Jews and anyone against the state in World War 2, were mass murdered. They had to die because someone wanted world domination. They died for us. They didn't die because they wanted to, I think that's obvious

Do not imply that others on this forum are undemocratic, you support the European Union and want holocaust denial to be made illegal, so you are not in a very strong position when it comes to democracy.

So the European Union is an insult, but deniers of the holocaust are perfectly fine?

The European Union is an insult to democracy, yes. What is your point?

Answer me honestly, if your close relatives were killed in gas chambers, you wouldn't be upset? (You said you wouldn't care?) So if someone went up to you and said they didn't die there, it's all a joke, they lied to us all and it's a complete fake, then decided to mock you because you still believed it happened. Are you honestly not going to care?

I shall say it again;I would care, but as I live in a democracy I would also accept that people have different views to mine.