The BNP - Good or Bad?

[Catzsy]

They'd be very similar, it all depends how it'd pan out and how each party would respond to proportional representation. UKIP and other parties miss out on a mass of votes at normal elections because they know how the FPTP system works and theres little chance of changing anything anyway with that system in place so they either vote for the opposition (Labour or Conservative) or dont bother voting at all - thats how the Lib/Lab/Con keep their monopoly on power and if you remove that then they are fully exposed.

The Conservatives would be in deep trouble and Cameron would most likely be thrown overboard to avoid UKIP rising above them, Labour would be struggling for votes and would have to rely on votes from Scotland/Liberal Democrat supporters just to stay with its head above the waves. They are proposing a referendum be held on election day this year anyway to decide the voting system, whether the new system will be a proper and fair system and whether it remains in place until the next election is a big question.

Sorry would have to agree to disagree on this one. My belief is that voting patterns are different for the two elections as they are for local elections.
Usually one protests about the other. In any event no main parties are going to vote for a system that puts them at that sort of disadvantage.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Sorry would have to agree to disagree on this one. My belief is that voting patterns are different for the two elections as they are for local elections.
Usually one protests about the other. In any event no main parties are going to vote for a system that puts them at that sort of disadvantage.

People vote in elections on national issues mainly so if the PR system did come in, voting patterns would change i'm pretty sure. Those who are voting Tory just to unseat Labour would think "hey hang on, theres alternatives" and the same goes for left wing voters aswell. Rather than going by tactical voting as a lot of people do now (even my parents have in the past voted Liberal Democrat to keep Labour out); they would be voting for who they truly feel is best - hence the European 2009 Election Results (UK). The bulk of England is to the right, and if people voted by whom they support then UKIP would certainly grow. As I said earlier, even when the Tories had a right-wing candidate UKIP still managed to cause great harm to the Tories by losing them 20 - 30 seats.

Of course, although according to the news Brown is pledging a referendum to be held at the next election to decide the voting system. It would pass if it does come to that, but the next election wont be held by the PR system so it'd only be the next election which would be affected and if the Tories get in, they could simply scrap any changes the referendum did make and the same for Labour.

[Bun]

i know this is meant to be about the skinheads in suits but why won't you just accept that UKIP only attract the small popularity that they get because people see them as a sole proposal group (i know they're not) and only those who are euro sceptic voted ukip, where everybody who voted labour, lib dem, tory et al. are pro-europe?

[-:Undertaker:-]

i know this is meant to be about the skinheads in suits but why won't you just accept that UKIP only attract the small popularity that they get because people see them as a sole proposal group (i know they're not) and only those who are euro sceptic voted ukip, where everybody who voted labour, lib dem, tory et al. are pro-europe?

Because the election results say otherwise.



On the European Union itself, opinion poll after opinion poll shows the British people do not want to be a part of the European Union and want withdrawal - the same goes for a number of countries around Europe. UKIP will not have any major breakthrough (although Farage could very well win against Bercow) in this election because of the FPTP system. Its not even disputable that UKIP are not popular, they came second in the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 and are estimated to have lost the Tories 20 to 30 seats in 2005. That figure will increase this year due to David Cameron, believe me if you read the comments from the bottom of the Telegraph or Daily Mail (both Tory base papers) then you will see that UKIP and the BNP are going to get quite a good percentage in the General Election but thanks to our voting system, that will most likely turn into 0 seats for both of them.

UKIP has the EU as its main policy and attracts people because of that for the reason that the European Union creates an estimated 75% of our laws. Without leaving the European Union, no government we elect can ever make any real changes because they are bound by the EU, its courts and its commission of whom have never been elected by the British people or the people of Europe.

[Bun]

Because the election results say otherwise.



On the European Union itself, opinion poll after opinion poll shows the British people do not want to be a part of the European Union and want withdrawal - the same goes for a number of countries around Europe. UKIP will not have any major breakthrough (although Farage could very well win against Bercow) in this election because of the FPTP system. Its not even disputable that UKIP are not popular, they came second in the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 and are estimated to have lost the Tories 20 to 30 seats in 2005. That figure will increase this year due to David Cameron, believe me if you read the comments from the bottom of the Telegraph or Daily Mail (both Tory base papers) then you will see that UKIP and the BNP are going to get quite a good percentage in the General Election but thanks to our voting system, that will most likely turn into 0 seats for both of them.

UKIP has the EU as its main policy and attracts people because of that for the reason that the European Union creates an estimated 75% of our laws. Without leaving the European Union, no government we elect can ever make any real changes because they are bound by the EU, its courts and its commission of whom have never been elected by the British people or the people of Europe.

cut the 75% uk law crap, you're starting to sound like your party leader. you just amplified my point, ukip got 16.5 percent because 16.5 percent of the electorate voted them for their 'main policy', cos let's be honest, that's the only reason people vote them. that means 83.5 percent did not vote them because they support eu. and regarding the general election i am fine with euro sceptic toffs to switch to ukip cos i would rather see labour in power than the conservatives.

[-:Undertaker:-]

cut the 75% uk law crap, you're starting to sound like your party leader. you just amplified my point, ukip got 16.5 percent because 16.5 percent of the electorate voted them for their 'main policy', cos let's be honest, that's the only reason people vote them. that means 83.5 percent did not vote them because they support eu. and regarding the general election i am fine with euro sceptic toffs to switch to ukip cos i would rather see labour in power than the conservatives.

Actually the only study which was properly conducted was by the German government (a country comparable to Britain in terms of size and governance) and they found that 84% of German laws were made by the European Union. Therefore its not crap as its also been analysed by experts on the EU such as Daniel Hannan, Lord Pearson and Nigel Farage who have come to that conclusion and not done as what you have done, which is inprint everything the Labour Party stands for into your mind because the chances are you were most likely brought up to support the Labour Party. If the Labour Party became anti-EU tommorow then theres little doubt in my mind that you'd also swap aswell. On the reason they voted them, Conservative voters do not vote on one issue. The general election is looming and everything David Cameron 'stands for' is putting the Tory base off, UKIP policies are very very Conservative and therefore attract voters.

The majority of this country support the death penalty being brought back, does that mean people voted based on that? - no they did not hence why the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats all got votes. I know Labour supporters who would support the death penalty 100%, Labour doesnt want to introduce it yet they still vote Labour. As I said before, the Daily Mail and the Telehgraph (the tory CORE VOTE) comments are really for UKIP now and even the BNP. People like the idea of holding referendums on issues, people like the idea of smaller state, people like the idea of the British government ruling Britain as opposed to the European Union.

You totally ignored everything i've said on the reason why we need to switch to proportional representation and the terms of tribal voting and are barging full steam ahead into something that you are only having a go at because you cannot seem to accept that UKIP are actually well supported and did better than the Labour Party in the polls which were PR (fair) and not FPTP (not fair). Here is another fact you may not like; the Conservative Party got more votes in England in 2005 than the Labour Party did and Labour are only in government now thanks to Scottish seats. If you are so sure that the British people support the idea of the European Union, surely you wouldn't object to the idea of a referendum on our membership of the European Union?

On the reason with the European Union, just because somebody supports a certain party does not mean they support everything that party stands for. Infact the Labour Party, many in the Labour Party were always against the EEC not to mention the European Union and remain so to this day. Everyone single opinion poll conducted over the European Union issue has come back as the British people want to withdraw. Now you can delude yourself otherwise, and by doing so follow the Labour Party like a headless chicken or you can accept that fact. Its your call.

On the toffs part, wow a Labour supporter using class war to win over their 'point' - very original!

[Bun]

Actually the only study which was properly conducted was by the German government (a country comparable to Britain in terms of size and governance) and they found that 84% of German laws were made by the European Union. Therefore its not crap

there you go again, fine a new song to sing

as its also been analysed by experts on the EU such as Daniel Hannan, Lord Pearson and Nigel Farage who have come to that conclusion and not done as what you have done, which is inprint everything the Labour Party stands for into your mind because the chances are you were most likely brought up to support the Labour Party.

no, i've never been forced to agree with something i don't, i agree with a lot of labours' policies, forgive me if that doesn't allow me to be a labour supporter

If the Labour Party became anti-EU tommorow then theres little doubt in my mind that you'd also swap aswell.

no, i wouldn't, i'm very much for the EU (and please don't use this line as an excuse to bring back the 70-80% of UK law nonsense)

On the reason they voted them, Conservative voters do not vote on one issue. The general election is looming and everything David Cameron 'stands for' is putting the Tory base off

init tho it's mint

UKIP policies are very very Conservative and therefore attract voters.

that's fine by me, i don't mind if they have a little bit of glam this may cos it'll be short lived

The majority of this country support the death penalty being brought back, does that mean people voted based on that? - no they did not hence why the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats all got votes.

well yeah that's because capital punishment isn't a key policy from any of the main parties, which all have the same views on it anyway

I know Labour supporters who would support the death penalty 100%, Labour doesnt want to introduce it yet they still vote Labour. As I said before, the Daily Mail and the Telehgraph (the tory CORE VOTE) comments are really for UKIP now and even the BNP.

yeah and the sun, will probs turn quite a few working class labour into tories

People like the idea of holding referendums on issues

fine for me, who's this 'people'?

people like the idea of smaller

again with the 'people', you really shouldn't do that

people like the idea of the British government ruling Britain as opposed to the European Union.

see above for the first bit ^, and the british government does rule britain, c'mon stop playing dumb

You totally ignored everything i've said on the reason why we need to switch to proportional representation and the terms of tribal voting and are barging full steam ahead into something that you are only having a go at because you cannot seem to accept that UKIP are actually well supported and did better than the Labour Party in the polls which were PR (fair) and not FPTP (not fair).

i didn't read the bit about pr sorry it looked boring. like i said ukip were just a bandwagon vote in the eu elections for the euro sceptics, nothing more. oh and even though i support PR, (even tho FPTP loves labour init (l)), FPTP is fair. if you don't like the rules, don't play the game

Here is another fact you may not like; the Conservative Party got more votes in England in 2005 than the Labour Party did and Labour are only in government now thanks to Scottish seats.

yeah well last time i checked westminster was the british government, not the london assembly, so surely that's okey cokey yeh?

If you are so sure that the British people support the idea of the European Union, surely you wouldn't object to the idea of a referendum on our membership of the European Union?

i'd welcome it with open arms, it would educate britain as lets be honest, britain is xenophobic

On the reason with the European Union, just because somebody supports a certain party does not mean they support everything that party stands for. Infact the Labour Party, many in the Labour Party were always against the EEC not to mention the European Union and remain so to this day. Everyone single opinion poll conducted over the European Union issue has come back as the British people want to withdraw. Now you can delude yourself otherwise, and by doing so follow the Labour Party like a headless chicken or you can accept that fact. Its your call.

HAHAAH, ironic isn't it? sure you ain't got your mate nigel on speed dial, or do you just pray for him at night?

On the toffs part, wow a Labour supporter using class war to win over their 'point' - very original!

got nothing against the upper class, as long as they aren't conservatives s****, yeh that was a joke before you go ape...

[Adamm]

Misunderstood.

Edited by iAdam (Forum Super Moderator); Please do not post pointlessly.

[-:Undertaker:-]

there you go again, fine a new song to sing

That all you have to say?

no, i've never been forced to agree with something i don't, i agree with a lot of labours' policies, forgive me if that doesn't allow me to be a labour supporter

Oh I very much think you do, because your quick to dish it out but when somebody replies you dont seem to want to actually respond properly to their points.

no, i wouldn't, i'm very much for the EU (and please don't use this line as an excuse to bring back the 70-80% of UK law nonsense)

Oh really, very interesting.

that's fine by me, i don't mind if they have a little bit of glam this may cos it'll be short lived

If the Conservatives go back to the right then UKIP would disband and i'd go back to supporting the Conservatives, along with many others. Until then, UKIP will grow just like the SNP did in Scotland over a period of 50 years. UKIP has grown even faster in its short history.

well yeah that's because capital punishment isn't a key policy from any of the main parties, which all have the same views on it anyway

Indeed it isnt, but people still vote for them. UKIP used to be very one-base with just the European Union being a core policy, of course they have retained that but thats another reason why they are considering renaming themselves the Independance Party - for the independance of the individual.

yeah and the sun, will probs turn quite a few working class labour into tories

Aww poor Labour, the whole world is against it!

fine for me, who's this 'people'?

You know, the public?

again with the 'people', you really shouldn't do that

Why not? - people are sick of government interferance in almost everything.

see above for the first bit ^, and the british government does rule britain, c'mon stop playing dumb

No it does rule Britain and thats fact because not even the great Labour Party denied it when on QT, more of our laws are made by the commission as opposed to our parliament and government. The sad fact is that while our government does have the power to say no to i'm sure what you consider are great policies the EU comes up with such as; what the definition of a pig is, how big a kiwi should be in millimetres before its illegal for a shop to sell it and what type of lightbulbs we should be allowed - it doesnt.

i didn't read the bit about pr sorry it looked boring. like i said ukip were just a bandwagon vote in the eu elections for the euro sceptics, nothing more. oh and even though i support PR, (even tho FPTP loves labour init (l)), FPTP is fair. if you don't like the rules, don't play the game

FPTP is not fair, otherwise right now we'd have UKIP and the BNP sitting in the House of Commons right now as their share of the votes means that they deserve representation. You surely know this because you support PR yourself.

yeah well last time i checked westminster was the british government, not the london assembly, so surely that's okey cokey yeh?

..and the Lond Assembly has what to do with this?

i'd welcome it with open arms, it would educate britain as lets be honest, britain is xenophobic

Pleased to hear that, wouldnt go as far as that though; afterall the majority of us go on holiday. I always find it strange how Labour supporters label anyone whos against immigration/the European Union as racist or xenophobic.

HAHAAH, ironic isn't it? sure you ain't got your mate nigel on speed dial, or do you just pray for him at night?

The thing is, I haven't been taught what to believe in by my relatives because i've swapped political views many times, I even supported the Liberal Democrats once. Stop it with the jokes by the way, i'm rolling on the floor in hysterics.

got nothing against the upper class, as long as they aren't conservatives s****, yeh that was a joke before you go ape...

Seems pretty driven into you by the looks of it, afterall; WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!

[MrPinkPanther]

You keep saying the vast majority of the public don't support LabConLib despite the fact that they clearly do. You can't just keep making things up. You say they only vote for them because of FPTP and they know UKIP won't get in yet:

• The vast majority of the population aren't aware of the flaws in first past the post
• Hell is going to freeze over before the liberal democrats get into power and yet they get WAY more votes than UKIP

The European elections are TOTALLY different to General Elections and don't blame it on the electoral system. Liberal Democrats ALWAYS perform worse in European Elections because some people aren't too keen on their Europhile attitude and equally some are keen on UKIP because of their Eurosceptic attitude. By your logic the liberal democrats should perform better in EU elections because the electoral system benefits more and yet they dont.

The vast majority of posts that I have seen by you have been ill informed and you seem to think that if you repeat yourself it suddenly becomes right. IF we had had a General Election at the same time as the EU election UKIP would NOT be in opposition.