BNP membership list forced closure

[-:Undertaker:-]

The part in bold is absolutely ludicrous and extremely sexist & offensive. You sound like somebody from the 1950s. I will never take you seriously again - I really thought you were more intelligent and open minded than that despite us disagreeing on political issues.

You need to put things into perspective a bit here. All women short lists, not that there are many, are legal and therefore not racist as that is illegal. Men, women of all age, creeds races who want to stand for parliament can put themselves forward . There is no bar. If you were applying for a job nobody can guarantee it for your local area - it is no different in politics. If anybody is that keen they will go for a constituency that is free.

I can see that i'm now dealing with a Marxist who just cannot accept reality. Let me ask you this; are the vast majority of builders for example men? are the vast majority of air hostesses female? - the answer is yes. Politics has always been more of a male career, that doesnt mean that women shouldnt be allowed in or discriminated against just because they are women but its a fact that men with louder voices are more politically minded just as they are more minded on football. In a pub you will hear men talking about football and politics - subjects such as that. In a salon for example you will most likely hear women talking about fashion & men - that is the world we live in and it is reality. No it is not all women and it is not all men. You discriminate based on gender and race - I do not. Therefore you are calling me the very thing you are yourself.

They are legal yes, Apartheid was also legal under the Union of South Africa law - does that make it right, matter settled? - no it does not. You say there is no bar but I have just been arguing with you over the very fact that you support barring men and white people in favour of ethnic groups and women to ensure what you call a 'parliament that represents the country' - that is not democratic nor is it right. You go on calling the BNP racist and whatever other words you may like to call them just as you use them openly against me; but the fact is you, the main parties and the BNP are all toeing the same line and i'm not; people should be judged/elected on what their ability is and not who they are.

[Catzsy]

If I am a Marxist who cannot accept reality may I ask what you are? I will leave the rest of the forum to judge your last post as I cannot believe anybody could spout such arrogant nonsense which belongs in a men's club in the 1950s

[-:Undertaker:-]

If I am a Marxist who cannot accept reality may I ask what you are? I will leave the rest of the forum to judge your last post as I cannot believe anybody could spout such arrogant nonsense which belongs in a men's club in the 1950s

I and the rest of the world must be living on a different planet then because you must see women in pubs talking about football/politics just as much as men and you must see men in salons getting their nails done while talking about boys and fashion. So in future do not call me or anyone else on this forum a sexist because it is you who supports discriminating based on somebodies gender or race for that matter, not me or the majority. Accept reality because sterotypes dont come from nowhere. So please do answer the rest of my post because you appear to have no response to;

- the fact that you support judging people based on their race/gender or sexuality which by definition is sexism/racism.
- the fact that you appear to think because something is in law it is right (so was Apartheid right?)

Tell me why because i'm a white male I should be barred from standing for election as a LAB/CON candidate in my local consituency? - I didnt choose my skin colour or my gender, why should I be barred from standing in a democratic election because of something that was out of my control? - Can I also ask; do you see as many women builders as male builders? (or am I just being the typical 1950s sexist :rolleyes

[Catzsy]

Tell me how many other forum members support your arguments in this thread? I do not claim to talk on behalf of the rest of the world like you do. Professions like nursing, police, flight attendants ceased being the domain of a single sex many years ago. I don't think you are sexist I believe from what you have written in this thread that you are sexist. Views like yours are so outdated it makes me cringe. What on earth has bodybuilding got to with anything relevant in this thread but there are plenty of women bodybuilders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_bodybuilding

There is nothing stopping anybody as I have said before in this thread putting themselves forward for election in any consituency they choose and if there is another person selected they can stand as an independent if they are so parochial that it has to be their home town.

The sexual discrimination act was passed by MPs who were in the majority white males - just the category that you complain being discriminated against so at least they can see a point to it even if you can't. For hundreds of years the males of the country took up all positions of any power and that act was passed to redress the balance. It is now the 21st century where women have an equal place in society and deserve some sort of equal representation in our parliament which has been denied to them for centuries. It was voted in by a majority of men until 2030. In the normal workplace I would agree with you it should be the best man or woman for the post. Also the English Womans Cricket Team and English Womens Rugby Team are world champions so it looks like yes you are totally out of date with present day living as that would have been unheard of years ago. South African law has nothing to do with the United Kingdom law. Yes of course Apartheid is wrong but it is a very, very weak example to support your case. I have a question for you. Do you support the BNP in any way at all?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Tell me how many other forum members support your arguments in this thread? I do not claim to talk on behalf of the rest of the world like you do. Professions like nursing, police, flight attendants ceased being the domain of a single sex many years ago. I don't think you are sexist I know from what you have written in this thread that you are sexist. Views like yours are so outdated it makes me cringe. What on earth has bodybuilding got to with anything relevant in this thread but there are plenty of women bodybuilders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_bodybuilding

Right ok lets get this straight; the definition of sexism is the belief that one sex is inferior to another. Now where have I implied or said that in this thread, would you like to point it out Rosie?;- as for flight attendants and nursing, they are still a mainly female dominated profession and there is nothing wrong with that. Politics on the other hand remains a male dominated profession just like building does. You on the other hand wish to rank somebody higher than somebody else based on their sex (electoral shortlists) thus you are the sexist.

There is nothing stopping anybody as I have said before in this thread putting themselves forward for election in any consituency they choose and if there is another person selected they can stand as an independent if they are so parochial that it has to be their home town.

As I have said before and time and time again; if the Conservative or Labour parties put a ethnic/women policy in my local area, I would not be able to stand as I am a white male. Thus that is discrimination and is barring people from standing due to the colour of their skin or their gender. Did I choose or can I change my gender or colour of skin? - no I cannot, therefore it is discriminating in a racist/sexist manner against myself. Just like the BNP discriminate against black people by barring them from joining the party.

The sexual discrimination act was passed by MPs who were in the majority white males - just the category that you complain being discriminated against so at least they can see a point to it even if you can't. For hundreds of years the males of the country took up all positions of any power and that act was passed to redress the balance. It is now the 21st century where women have an equal place in society and deserve some sort of equal representation in our parliament which has been denied to them for centuries. It was voted in by a majority of men until 2030. In the normal workplace I would agree with you it should be the best man or woman for the post. Also the English Womans Cricket Team and English Womens Rugby Team are world champions so it looks like yes you are totally out of date with present day living as that would have been unheard of years ago.

No I cannot, these people were elected Rosie. They didnt gain their positions in the way which you deem fit which is through not ability but through what gender you are/what skin colour you are a part of. Men are more politically inclined, now i'm not saying all of them are and would never say that. It is just like nursing and maternity, men are not as inclined/interested whereas women are interested and the same goes for social care which is a female dominated sector. It is fact, just accept it. Theres not an evil white male-dominated Empire out to get you;- its just who we are. As for equal representation that is possible with the currenct system where you vote for somebody you deem fit. We now have a situation where women/black people are being chosen not because they are the best for the job but because they are black/a woman. That does not create a fair parliament, its creates a parliament which is based on race/gender and not democracy.

My aunty has a black friend, he was offered a position in the police because he was black. He declined because he wanted the job based on what hisd ability was, not on what the colour of his skin is. You on the other hand hate the idea of fairness and thus pretend to be a champion of equality when in reality you are anything but. Its just a complete joke when people such as yourself label the BNP racist.

South African law has nothing to do with the United Kingdom law. Yes of course Apartheid is wrong but it is a very, very weak example to support your case. I have a question for you. Do you support the BNP in any way at all?

You backed up your 'point' by saying "its law" - my point is that because something is law doesnt make it not racist/sexist or wrong. South Africa had Apartheid as its law yet I dont suppose you agree with that do you? - on the BNP no I do not support the extremes although I think they have more honour than the main parties put together because at least they dont pretend like you do not to discriminate. They discriminate and had it out in the open, the main parties on the other hand discriminate but have the cheek to call the BNP racist/sexist.

If I supported the British National Party then I would have them in my signature would I not.

Anyhow you still have not answered my question which is; Tell me why because i'm a white male I should be barred from standing for election as a LAB/CON candidate in my local consituency? - you justify to me why I am not worthy to stand because of the colour of my skin/my gender.

[Catzsy]

These are your sexist remarks:

The reason why many women may not be in parliament is because politics isnt much of a womens thing and thats a fact. Just like nursing or flight attending is not much of a mens thing.
Politics has always been more of a male career, that doesnt mean that women shouldnt be allowed in or discriminated against just because they are women but its a fact that men with louder voices are more politically minded just as they are more minded on football. In a pub you will hear men talking about football and politics - subjects such as that. In a salon for example you will most likely hear women talking about fashion & men - that is the world we live in and it is reality. No it is not all women and it is not all men

These opinions are not only outdated but very patronising of the modern women.

I say again there are not 'black' shortlists. You seem to think it is fair that because of history when women were denied entry to the House of Commons because of discrimination of previous generations then they should not be given the chance to 'catch up' a bit? If a male is denied selection from your local constituency because of an all women shortlist then he is not much of a man to 'throw his toys out of the pram' and shout 'discrimination' and quite frankly I am sure that any man wishing to stand for election would understand the reason for it and not have such superficial, narrow minded views. There are plenty of constituencys in the UK to stand for election and there is always the opportunity if they feel they are the 'best man for the job' to enter as an independent. If you feel that I am sexist to believe this then you are entitled to your opinion but Parliament has decided on this issue and there are no protests on the streets of Britain because of it. I like to think we live in an enlightened age where just because males are the majority in most positions of power not because of a deficiency in the make up of women but because of historic discrimination against ' the weaker sex' that most males can see the logic of trying to make our Parliament more representative of the society it serves. What problem is there in that? There is a huge difference between them and the BNP. There is nothing racist about this policy although you have viewed it as sexism which cannot be said of the BNP whose only interest is to serve indigenous white people.

[-:Undertaker:-]

These are your sexist remarks:

These opinions are not only outdated but very patronising of the modern women.

So you often hear of football being discussed by women in salons? - well i'm impressed. That still doesnt answer the fact that i'm not suggesting women are inferior to men so you still have yet to tell me how I am sexist?

I say again there are not 'black' shortlists. You seem to think it is fair that because of history when women were denied entry to the House of Commons because of discrimination of previous generations then they should not be given the chance to 'catch up' a bit? If a male is denied selection from your local constituency because of an all women shortlist then he is not much of a man to 'throw his toys out of the pram' and shout 'discrimination' and quite frankly I am sure that any man wishing to stand for election would understand the reason for it and not have such superficial, narrow minded views.

No, you wanted fairness and you got it. You cannot now you have fairness, turn that around and do exactly the same to men as they often did to women in the past. Why? - because that defeats the point of fairness. At the moment if you have a candidate shortlist which is open to all; people wont decide on your colour, your sex or sexuality because they will decided on who is best for the job. If a woman is best for the job then they will elect her, if a black man is best for the job then they will elect him and if a white man is best for the job then they will elect him. What do you not get about that concept?

If you make it so that the only choice is a black/woman candidate and exclude white males then that is not fairness and you are being racist and sexist. I loathe the idea that somebody is chosen based on whether they are a man, gay, black, a woman or any other factor. Racism and sexism is wrong whether it comes from the state or on the streets. You can call me narrow minded all you want, the fact is that more lads like football because they do, more women like fashion because they do, more men like politics because they do, more women are flight attendants because they are, more men are builders because they are and so on. You can see it, call me narrow minded, from the 1950s and whatever else all you want - you know its a fact of life and I know its a fact of life.

There are plenty of constituencys in the UK to stand for election and there is always the opportunity if they feel they are the 'best man for the job' to enter as an independent. If you feel that I am sexist to believe this then you are entitled to your opinion but Parliament has decided on this issue and there are no protests on the streets of Britain because of it

In other words, you think I am not worthy to stand as my local candidate as a Labour or Conservative MP because i'm white and i'm a male? - that is racist and sexist. How would you react if I stated that I dont agree with black people standing as my local Tory MP and my comeback to you would be 'well they can stand as an independant' - although I suppose the BNP could also use an excuse similar to the one you have come up with which would be 'join another party' - of course you still consider them racist despite the fact you are both identical except for which skin colour you discriminate against.

I like to think we live in an enlightened age where just because males are the majority in most positions of power not because of a deficiency in the make up of women but because of historic discrimination against ' the weaker sex' that most males can see the logic of trying to make our Parliament more representative of the society it serves. What problem is there in that? There is a huge difference between them and the BNP. There is nothing racist about this policy although you have viewed it as sexism which cannot be said of the BNP whose only interest is to serve indigenous white people.

Most males and women cannot see the logic in being racist/sexist to others for them to gain a office of state when did not earn that place. Ann Widdecombe is a prime example, shes disgusted at the fact that its patronising to women that they need legislation to make it somewhere and you should be too. As a woman you want to be treated fairly, yet that doesnt seem to apply because you believe the male opposition should be removed. That is not fairness. In relation to the BNP; they say they wish to represent the indigenous white people and that is their justification for a ban on banning black/asian people. On the other hand you say you wish to represent the black/asian/women minorities and that is your justification for a ban on white males.

Can you not see how hypocritical that is?

[Catzsy]

If you cannot see how sexist your views are then I give up, quite frankly. If you feel that centuries of discrimination
against women can be undone in a couple of decades when the majority of men in parliament agreed to all women shortlists until 2030. Women do have not achieved 'fairness' yet it is an ongoing and will be an ongoing aim for decades to come. No woman or man can earn their place on selection they can only earn their place by being elected and doing the job then they will be voted out if they don't do it properly. I am not representing anybody - it was an act of parliament passed. Because you disagree with it does not make it wrong. It is not hypocritical to support this point of view and be against racism. I do not think you are hypocritical to hold your views as I can see you genuinely believe them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If you cannot see how sexist your views are then I give up, quite frankly. If you feel that centuries of discrimination
against women can be undone in a couple of decades when the majority of men in parliament agreed to all women shortlists until 2030. Women do have not achieved 'fairness' yet it is an ongoing and will be an ongoing aim for decades to come. A woman or earn their on selection they can only earn their place by being elected and doing the job then they will be voted out. I am not representing anybody - it was an act of parliament passed. Because you disagree with it does not make it wrong. It is not hypocritical to support this point of view and be against racism. I do not think you are hypocritical to hold your views as I can see you genuinely believe them.

Tell me where I have implied that women are inferior to men (because thats the definition of sexism).

As for hypocritical, yes it is hypocritical. You slate the British National Party for not allowing black membership yet deem it perfectly fine for the Conservatives and Labour to bar white males from standing in a candidate shortlist election. The BNP discriminates against black and asian people, you do so against white males - what makes you so much better and morally higher than them?

The answer is that you are just as bad for judging somebody on the colour of their skin/the sex they belong to.

[jrh2002]

The BNP list is open.

I must say you cant want anti racism and anti sexism and then support lists that back women and minorities of course we want it fair for everybody but on merit and not on stupid lists because doing this is what is turning people towards the BNP. Yes there was lots of racism years ago but we are over that now in most cases but this stupid attitude by giving things to ppl because of race and sex is pushing the country back years.