Has Britain Declined? [ENDS 20/06/2010]

[Grig]

Has Britain Declined?

ENDS: 20/06/2010

This debate may sound broad, however is quite intriguing when putting your mind to it. Britain in the 19th/ early 20th century could be defined as a a large empire with colonies across the world and could be even classed as a term known as 'super power' with it's empire stretching across the globe. Many manufacturing goods were produced there and the 'Made in Britain' was a symbol to many good such as cars, clothes etc. Britain also used to be strong economically and had a pretty high level of social values, whilst now binge drinking, lack of respect, obesity, teenage pregnancy etc. is at sky high levels.

However, some may dismiss the claim saying it is simply the media over-exaggerating the problems within Britain. Statistically, Britain has become of the wealthiest nations (in terms of per capita) in the world. This includes a high standard of living and education, low corruption, a generally stronger economy and personal freedoms that are not enjoyed by nearly 95% of the world's population. Some even claim that Britain has simply been overshadowed by America, which after the Second World War became the focus of the world, or the "super power" of the world. They argue that is is simply a transitional process, where the torch is passed from country to country; may it be the Britain, USSR, USA and even China in the near future.

Anyway, now it is your chance to debate, what do you think. Do you really feel that Britain has fallen into a deep dark hole or does it still hold a powerful status in the world today?

[MrPinkPanther]

I'll start the ball rolling.

Britain saw a decline throughout the 20th century for numerous reasons. Although the decline began towards the start of the 20th century it was after World War II when Britain began to lose its world power status. It was crippled by debt and having just defeated fascism it was now clear that it would be impossible and hypocritical to hold onto the Empire. However once Britain let go of the Empire it was not yet ready to find its place in the world. We believed too strongly in the power of both our country and the commonwealth, we still had delusions that we were a power to match the USA and Russia. It is because of this that we didn't join the EEC (The foundations of the EU) and quickly began to fall behind the rest of Europe, by the time the Government realised that this had happened we were locked out after the 1957 Treaty of Rome. Although we eventually joined in the 1970s we had missed out on the kind of economic miracle that Europe had experienced putting us at a huge disadvantage. Despite all this I do believe Britain remains a significant power in the world, once it realised it couldn't compete with America it found its place in Europe and as it stands today Britain is around 20th in terms of GDP per capita. This is not something to be snuffed at however it clearly indicates although a significant power Britain isn't the world leader it once was.

[smiffy70]

i think we still have a little bit of reputation but today the desicsions tht our government are making and waht the youths are doing is destroying it, Take things like the recession. we were fine then this comes along and it seems ever since then our econmy has gone into trumoil we need to get out of this hole fast

[MrPinkPanther]

i think we still have a little bit of reputation but today the desicsions tht our government are making and waht the youths are doing is destroying it, Take things like the recession. we were fine then this comes along and it seems ever since then our econmy has gone into trumoil we need to get out of this hole fast

The thing is in terms of the recession everywhere has been hit, not just Britain. Its called the Global Financial Meltdown for a reason . In fact several European countries are in it worse than us who are often considered to be our main competitors.

[Banana Pancakes]

Britain maintains a powerful status but one that is far lower than that of the 18th century, at the turn of the industrial revolution. Britain was the super-power, the powerhouse of the world, it's empire spanned half the globe, bringing in huge arrays of different produce; gold, spices etc. There was no army that could match Britains, with troops from tens of different colonies fighting under the flag. However, come back to present day and there is a declining Britain, a Britain that is suffering, both socially and economically. There is no doubting the causes, the First world war was no help to Britain, with the country taking huge loans from America to finance the war and with the result of the great depression, the economy was down and people were struggling to live. With the formation of the league of nations, Britain had to drop most of their colonies and were no longer the rulers but instead 'mandates' of these areas. With the rise of the USSR (Soviet Union), Britain was falling further and further behind other countries in Europe, countries such as France and Germany. Today Britain is still seen as the super-power of Europe with Russia but with globalisation, countries such as India and China are coming into the equation and with far bigger populations, pushing Britain back. However, Britain remains a major power, it is sixth in the GDP statistics of 2009 but lies 700% adrift of the United States. There is no doubt that Britain has declined but has this been to a large extent? Well the answer is obviously no.

[MrPinkPanther]

Britain maintains a powerful status but one that is far lower than that of the 18th century, at the turn of the industrial revolution. Britain was the super-power, the powerhouse of the world, it's empire spanned half the globe, bringing in huge arrays of different produce; gold, spices etc. There was no army that could match Britains, with troops from tens of different colonies fighting under the flag. However, come back to present day and there is a declining Britain, a Britain that is suffering, both socially and economically. There is no doubting the causes, the First world war was no help to Britain, with the country taking huge loans from America to finance the war and with the result of the great depression, the economy was down and people were struggling to live. With the formation of the league of nations, Britain had to drop most of their colonies and were no longer the rulers but instead 'mandates' of these areas. With the rise of the USSR (Soviet Union), Britain was falling further and further behind other countries in Europe, countries such as France and Germany. Today Britain is still seen as the super-power of Europe with Russia but with globalisation, countries such as India and China are coming into the equation and with far bigger populations, pushing Britain back. However, Britain remains a major power, it is sixth in the GDP statistics of 2009 but lies 700% adrift of the United States. There is no doubt that Britain has declined but has this been to a large extent? Well the answer is obviously no.

The thing is todays world powers are not like those of the 18th Century, then power was judged by how much land a country occupied wheras now its judged by a countries economy. Todays world powers are simply incomparable to those of a hundred years ago, Britain has just failed to make the transition from a Land Power to an Economic one. The real question is how countries such as China and India will dominate in the future, their economies are going through the economic boom that Britain had a hundred years ago and faster. China has accomplished what took Britain 100 years in just 25, it really is astonishing.

I don't know if you knew this but the GDP charts I suspect you are looking at are skewed primarily because of Americas population and country size. For a better indication of a healthy economy you should look at GDP per capita or even wealth distribution. Here countries like Switzerland perform better because although they are small countries, for their population size they are incredibly prosperous:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al)_per_capita

What may surprise you and others is that the height of the British empire was not in fact, as you say, the 18th Century but it was in 1922. After the First World War Britain occupied nearly a quarter of the worlds land mass. An impressive feat for a country that has just fought, what was then, the biggest war in history.

[Jordy]

Firstly can I just say this is a rubbish debate, I've never known anyone dispute that Britain has declined and this is an enormous subject involving history over the past 300 years, the empire, two world wars, membership of the EU and all the politics and wars in between. I'm also struggling to disagree with any of the posts above, they're very good in content and recite the history perfectly, can't argue with that.

After World War II the torch was no doubt passed to the USA, which although was involved with Cold War with the Soviet Union, it always had the edge (Moon landings and nuclear weapons superiority for example) and eventually 'won' when the Soviet Union collapsed in the early 90s. Right now there seems to be two fairly equally weighted super powers, militarily speaking the USA still has the edge but China's grasp on economics is enormous and the USA is very reliant on this.

The UK remains a world power today because of it's history, mostly including monarchy and it's large military spending which I believe is second or third in the world, for a tiny island like ours that is enormous. Most importantly though it maintains a seat on the UN Security Council allowing it a veto along with the other world powers and is one of the few countries with nuclear weapons. Politically I think it has little influence these days however, the US seems to ignore it and within the EU, Germany has more power and the UK shares about as much power as France and Italy, despite generations before we were far more powerful than them. As the monarchy is inevitably phased out by Australia, Canada, the European Union and an ever more powerful government I think we will really lose our place in the world and the super power status the UK had in the 19th century and early 20th century will be forever forgotten. We will still continue to be a successful country I've no doubt, the country has a fantastic infrastructure whereas all these upcoming world powers do not but our influence/power will decline. Our increasingly strained relationship with the US is also a reason for us becoming a less powerful nation, the US is not as powerful as it used to be and Obama seems struck on further damaging the relations left by Bush/Blair.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Britain declined because of two reasons; World War II and socialism.

The mix of the rise of the United States, a unified German Empire (later the Third Reich) made our advantage slip away in time. The World War (II) only hastend the decline in this part leaving us with the immense strain of debt and a loss of appetite for Empire and imperialism - the truth is that the horrors of war in Asia and the idea that the government of the day was spending time fiddling with the colonies was viewed as wrong whilst the country was destroyed. The rise of nationalism in these countries also deepend the decline which made it impossible for Britain to continue with Empire whilst at the same time being drawn into the new Cold War in which the danger was that the nationalists in the colonies would join with the Soviet Union and create something worse than a domino effect; a mass changeover.

The fact is that socialism also brought the Empire down, whilst it is true that our Empire was biggest after World War I this was only because of the mandates and default governing going to the leading power which was Britain at that time. It started mainly from the 1880s onwards where socialism slowly crept into the system with nationalisation of companies such as the East India Company and the train lines. This [rabid socialism] was continued to the 1970s which left Britain behind as the 'sick man of Europe' - the EEC did not create an economic miracle, it was always the intention of the EEC (later EU) to become a unified superstate and Ted Heath (British PM) knew this very fact but used the excuse that the EEC would open up the economy and help the United Kingdom when it simply did not.

Britain has declined but we are still an Empire just in smaller terms than what we once were, with the reforms of Thatcher we gained our ground again and remained a Great Power and still remain as that to this day. However the damage inflicted on us by continous left wing governments and the European Union and beginning to threaten and weaken this country and its main asset, the financial sector. The whole concept of the European Union was and is to rival the United States and absord Britain within - they have remained jealous of the anglo-american bond throughout history (especially the French). We can remain a Great Power if we continue with Thatchers economic which are similar to those in South Korea, China and various other developing nations or we can go down the road of socialism again which will destroy what we have left.

[MrPinkPanther]

it was always the intention of the EEC (later EU) to become a unified superstate and Ted Heath (British PM) knew this very fact but used the excuse that the EEC would open up the economy and help the United Kingdom when it simply did not.

Thats sheer speculation. The EU began as the coal and steel community after the war. The idea was that with the larger countries of Europes resources for war pooled (coal and steel are the two key required elements) another war could not break out like either of the two world wars. This eventually evolved into a total economic and then part political union. Do you honestly think the French wanted to form a political union with the German people? The very same people who had organised the industrial slaughter of the French population just years earlier? I think not.

Britain has declined but we are still an Empire just in smaller terms than what we once were, with the reforms of Thatcher we gained our ground again and remained a Great Power and still remain as that to this day. However the damage inflicted on us by continous left wing governments and the European Union and beginning to threaten and weaken this country and its main asset, the financial sector. The whole concept of the European Union was and is to rival the United States and absord Britain within - they have remained jealous of the anglo-american bond throughout history (especially the French). We can remain a Great Power if we continue with Thatchers economic which are similar to those in South Korea, China and various other developing nations or we can go down the road of socialism again which will destroy what we have left.

I don't deny that Thatcher did had what had to be done for the British economy (although her methods were heavy handed but lets not get into that) but the de-regulation of the City of London was a colossal mistake. People began to take bigger risks, endangering the whole economy. It led to the temporary "Lawson Boom" but as usual with artificial booms a bust followed which nearly destroyed Majors 1992 electoral campaign (which he had to borrow money to win by the way). The long term effects were even more disastrous, it allowed the build up of unregulated toxic assets so when the recession bit, Britain was affected more than various other worldwide economies and which is one of the primary reasons our banking sector nearly collapsed.

[Banana Pancakes]

The thing is todays world powers are not like those of the 18th Century, then power was judged by how much land a country occupied wheras now its judged by a countries economy. Todays world powers are simply incomparable to those of a hundred years ago, Britain has just failed to make the transition from a Land Power to an Economic one. The real question is how countries such as China and India will dominate in the future, their economies are going through the economic boom that Britain had a hundred years ago and faster. China has accomplished what took Britain 100 years in just 25, it really is astonishing.

I don't know if you knew this but the GDP charts I suspect you are looking at are skewed primarily because of Americas population and country size. For a better indication of a healthy economy you should look at GDP per capita or even wealth distribution. Here countries like Switzerland perform better because although they are small countries, for their population size they are incredibly prosperous:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al)_per_capita

What may surprise you and others is that the height of the British empire was not in fact, as you say, the 18th Century but it was in 1922. After the First World War Britain occupied nearly a quarter of the worlds land mass. An impressive feat for a country that has just fought, what was then, the biggest war in history.

But in 1922 we weren't the most powerful nation, the United States was. Whereas at the time of the industrial revolution, no one came close to matching Britain. There's no doubting China and India's astronomical growth, with their huge population obviously they're going to develop at a far quicker rate than that of Britain.