Scotland: Should it become its own country?

[zombies]

i'm a scot and i'm voting no!

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not as it is currently planned for sure, the plan is an absolute mess and there is either no certainty or Salmond is essentially demanding the rest of the UK has to act in Scotland's best interest once it gains independence. The whole argument and reasoning for wanting independence is a whole load of crap too and anyone who buys into half of the arguments presented is a bit of a moron to be quite honest. I'd also rather see a federal UK (which would solve a hell of a lot of "issues" most pro-independence campaigners seem to have) before I see a broken UK.

See, as a Unionist i'd have to switch to supporting a independent Kingdom of England if a move towards devomax or federalism is made. Under a federal set up, we'd risk losing our unwritten constitution and we'd have the constitutional crisis potential whereby Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would be able to block legislation in a Federal Council/Senate despite being much smaller than England.

A system of federalism would basically mean England paying for the defence of everybody else. What's the point in the UK if it goes federal?

:rolleyes: :big_grin::big_grin::big_grin::big_grin::L:L:L:L:L :L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L :shifty:

Absolutely, and top historians agree and disagree with your blind anti-British hatred. No nation has ever made such a lasting impact on the world as Britain has, apart from the Roman Empire. That's the fact of world history.

I won't take lectures on Britain from somebody who lives in a country that still practices slavery (the caste system) in the modern world. And that reminds me of another great gift that Britain gave to the world, the abolition of slavery. Without us, it's very likely that slavery would still be practiced worldwide just as it is still practiced in modern India. Thanks for the reminder of another great gift Britain gave to the world

[dbgtz]

See, as a Unionist i'd have to switch to supporting a independent Kingdom of England if a move towards devomax or federalism is made. Under a federal set up, we'd risk losing our unwritten constitution and we'd have the constitutional crisis potential whereby Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would be able to block legislation in a Federal Council/Senate despite being much smaller than England.

Well when I said that, I was basically imagining each constituent country of the UK having evenly distributed power over each region rather than this unequal mess and having "MPs" only vote together on joint matters such as defence. The only constituent country, in my vision, that may have unequal power is Northern Ireland for reasons you can guess. The only problem I could see if this were have some sort of attempt at implementation is who writes it.

I've said before I'd rather there was no devolution altogether, but this is my preferred alternative.

A system of federalism would basically mean England paying for the defence of everybody else. What's the point in the UK if it goes federal?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but OK.

[FlyingJesus]

Alexander of Macedon, Barbarossa, the Achaemenid and Sassanid empires of Persia, the Ottomans, the New Kingdom of Egypt, none of these people shaped the world obv because it isn't taught in British schools and they didn't speak English

[-:Undertaker:-]

Alexander of Macedon, Barbarossa, the Achaemenid and Sassanid empires of Persia, the Ottomans, the New Kingdom of Egypt, none of these people shaped the world obv because it isn't taught in British schools and they didn't speak English

Did I dispute the influence and importance of these civilisations, nations or empires? No, I did not. All nations and civiliations should be proud of themselves and their culture - just as I am, and I won't be told or taught to be ashamed of my own country, it's culture and it's history by left wing white guilt theory. I'm damn well proud of our history and I stand for people lecturing me on how worthless/evil it is.

I have said many times in the past in regards to the EU for example that it's a disgrace that Germany is constantly made to feel ashamed of itself.

I've said before I'd rather there was no devolution altogether, but this is my preferred alternative.

Agreed.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but OK.

Because we could very well end up with bloc voting among the federal 'states' of a federal UK whereby England, with the largest population by far, could be outvoted on say defence despite the fact that it would be England mainly paying for defence.

In my view, if countries wish to make more or less most of their own laws then they should be independent.

[FlyingJesus]

Never said you should feel guilty about British history, although it was pretty hilarious that you condemned slavery and feudal caste systems while glorifying the empire

ps Britain didn't give the world the abolition of slavery

[-:Undertaker:-]

Never said you should feel guilty about British history, although it was pretty hilarious that you condemned slavery and feudal caste systems while glorifying the empire

Nobody claimed the Empire was perfect, but you have to weigh it up. It's true that Britain once practiced slavery across it's Empire - but it's also true that Britain abolished slavery rather early on in it's Empire... something very unique in world history as slavery had been common in the world until this point. It's true that British colonies did not have sufficent rights and lacked democracy for native people... but on the other hand it's also true that had Britain not conquered these areas, they would have not been granted English Liberty & Common Law (which makes a people more free than a democracy) and would not have ended up with Westminster democracy post-independence as many of them did but which many of them ruined within only a few years of Britain leaving.

ps Britain didn't give the world the abolition of slavery

Britain led the way in abolishing slavery seeing as Britain controlled the oceans. Indeed, British ships used to purposely target and board Spanish ships carrying slaves which we then freed. William Wilberforce and the efforts of others led to the abolition of slavery in the British Empire which de facto (due to it's size and coverage) abolished slavery around the world. It was those evil white people who abolished slavery across the world.

That is a good legacy from the British Empire.

[FlyingJesus]

That was to stop the slave trade, not slavery itself. Very different kettle of fish. America and Mexico beat us to actual abolition by quite a way

[The Don]

That was to stop the slave trade, not slavery itself. Very different kettle of fish. America and Mexico beat us to actual abolition by quite a way

Genuine question because i'm not clued up on this topic, why would they want to stop the slave trade? Obviously it's morally terrible but if they didn't want to stop slavery, why stop the trade itself?

[FlyingJesus]

Guess they realised it wasn't very nice to tear people from their homeland and send them halfway across the world to die but didn't want to give up their easy lifestyles