EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[The Don]

Then you don't understand it as in the need of the Eurozone to act as one in the future in order to survive, as the report makes clear. In order to create these deeper unions for the Eurozone, they're going to have to vote together or else it won't work and they'll have to leave the Euro. That's the political reality of it. And Eurozone legislation will crossover (as it does now) into EU legislation hence why there isn't a separate European Commission for the Eurozone, or a separate parliament, or a separate Council of Ministers, or a separate Courts: nor are there any plans to do so. In essence, if Britain stays we'll be tying ourselves in closer and closer on a number of fronts with a project which is ultimately going to leave us as it becomes a state. How for example could Britain have Commissioners in the future without being in a federal Europe when the Commission would become the government of that federal state? It's incompatible. How can Britain possibly adhere to an ECJ of another sovereign state with a single legal system? It is impossible.

Given you accept it is moving towards political union and we are not, why not back leaving now on our own terms rather than have to leave in a decade or two?

Clearly you are the one who doesn't understand it if you think every eurozone member is going to have to vote in the same way on every piece of future legislation.

The five presidents report literally repeatedly says this isn't the case and you would know this if you bothered to read the report yourself rather than relying on the clearly sensationalised synopsis of it from voteleavetakecontrol

This does not mean that all Member States that share
the single currency are or should be alike, or that
they should follow the same policies. What ultimately
matters is the outcome: that all euro area Member
States pursue sound policies so that they can rebound
quickly from short-term shocks, are able to exploit their
comparative advantages within the Single Market and
attract investment, thereby sustaining high levels of
growth and employment

page 7

[-:Undertaker:-]

Thought one of the things you hated the most about the EU was the freedom of movement / lack of border control? Now you are saying we should have Freedom of Movement?

No.

I am saying that if you personally back Freedom of Movement but do not support the creation of a federal Europe and joining the Eurozone (as most Remainers will say), then on principle you should be voting Leave and then post-Brexit arguing for the EEA whilst I would argue for say the EFTA or an FTA. Democracy.

As with many aspects of the European Union, you have not go to be in it to still take part in them. Rather than vote Remain to stay in the whole EU project to protect your chosen favourite parts despite the EU inevitably moving to a destination which most of us do not want, it makes sense to vote Leave in this referendum and then advocate joining the EEA afterwards so you could keep say Freedom of Movement if that is what you wanted rather than straitjacket the entire country to the full works for another decade after which we will have to leave anyway (see my discussion with Akeam).

The options of joining the EEA, EFTA, an FTA or even something else would all be something we could decide as a country in the departure negotiations.

- - - Updated - - -

Clearly you are the one who doesn't understand it if you think every eurozone member is going to have to vote in the same way on every piece of future legislation.

The five presidents report literally repeatedly says this isn't the case and you would know this if you bothered to read the report yourself rather than relying on the clearly sensationalised synopsis of it from voteleavetakecontrol

page 7

Oh of course some of them can be renegade vote how they like, but will ultimately have to follow the outcome of the EZ votes thanks to QMV.

It'll start acting more as a bloc (and thus we [the UK] will be in a permanent voting minority) or else it'll disintegrate. My money is on disintegrate if I am honest as I think the chances of more extreme parties on both left and right gaining power is growing which will ultimately mean an unresolvable stand off. It's a powder keg waiting to go off which is all the more reason to leave now and escape the damage when it really does hit the fan. We've already seen how Greece, Spain, Portugal and others have been ruthlessly forced into accepting policies they otherwise would not have done with an elected government.

[The Don]

No.

I am saying that if you personally back Freedom of Movement but do not support the creation of a federal Europe and joining the Eurozone (as most Remainers will say), then on principle you should be voting Leave and then post-Brexit arguing for the EEA whilst I would argue for say the EFTA or an FTA. Democracy.

As with many aspects of the European Union, you have not go to be in it to still take part in them. Rather than vote Remain to stay in the whole EU project to protect your chosen favourite parts despite the EU inevitably moving to a destination which most of us do not want, it makes sense to vote Leave in this referendum and then advocate joining the EEA afterwards so you could keep say Freedom of Movement if that is what you wanted rather than straitjacket the entire country to the full works for another decade after which we will have to leave anyway (see my discussion with Akeam).

The options of joining the EEA, EFTA, an FTA or even something else would all be something we could decide as a country in the departure negotiations.

- - - Updated - - -



Oh of course some of them can be renegade vote how they like, but will ultimately have to follow the outcome of the EZ votes thanks to QMV.

It'll start acting more as a bloc (and thus we [the UK] will be in a permanent voting minority) or else it'll disintegrate. My money is on disintegrate if I am honest as I think the chances of more extreme parties on both left and right gaining power is growing which will ultimately mean an unresolvable stand off. It's a powder keg.

Each country will continue to vote in their own interest. The Eurozone has been around for a while now, countries aren't suddenly going to start automatically siding against the UK simply because it's not in the Eurozone.

[Mikey]

Received my card in the post the other day, also registering for some volunteering events next weekend! Can't wait to vote remain.



inb4 dan tries to convert you

For a good unbiased breakdown of everything look at:
https://fullfact.org/europe/

runs away from him

But thanks I'll have a look at the website you linked!

[-:Undertaker:-]

Each country will continue to vote in their own interest. The Eurozone has been around for a while now, countries aren't suddenly going to start automatically siding against the UK simply because it's not in the Eurozone.

It doesn't have to mean "siding up against" us it simply means if they have different needs/aims to us - which they do given they're going to be pushing for much closer integration and harmonisation before attempting political union - then it means we'll be constantly outvoted even if it is against our interests/destination. I do not see why we should be dragged in directions unsuited to us when we're going to have to leave in the end anyway.

Why not accept we are on differing paths and make inevitable break now on our terms rather than later on when it might not suit us?

[The Don]

It doesn't have to mean "siding up against" us it simply means if they have different needs/aims to us - which they do given they're going to be pushing for much closer integration and harmonisation before attempting political union - then it means we'll be constantly outvoted even if it is against our interests/destination.

Why not accept we are on differing paths and make inevitable break now on our terms rather than later on when it might not suit us?

Did you not read the quote I just posted straight from the report?

"This does not mean that all Member States that share
the single currency are or should be alike, or that
they should follow the same policies. What ultimately
matters is the outcome: that all euro area Member
States pursue sound policies so that they can rebound
quickly from short-term shocks, are able to exploit their
comparative advantages within the Single Market and
attract investment, thereby sustaining high levels of
growth and employment"

This magical eurozone voting bloc is a myth. Countries aren't required to vote in any particular way, and the five presidents report reaffirms this. The UK can quite clearly stay part of the EU without being subjected to further political integration (as we've been guaranteed), and without becoming some sort of minority due to this fabled eurozone voting bloc. Sorry to put an end to the false narrative you love to give.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Did you not read the quote I just posted straight from the report?

"This does not mean that all Member States that share
the single currency are or should be alike, or that
they should follow the same policies. What ultimately
matters is the outcome: that all euro area Member
States pursue sound policies so that they can rebound
quickly from short-term shocks, are able to exploit their
comparative advantages within the Single Market and
attract investment, thereby sustaining high levels of
growth and employment"

This magical eurozone voting bloc is a myth. Countries aren't required to vote in any particular way, and the five presidents report reaffirms this. The UK can quite clearly stay part of the EU without being subjected to further political integration (as we've been guaranteed), and without becoming some sort of minority due to this fabled eurozone voting bloc. Sorry to put an end to the false narrative you love to give.

The paragraph you've posted is meaningless fluff. Unless there's something put into the treaties aka legal guarantees such as reinstating the British veto across all QMV areas to guarantee otherwise then you're living on a hope and a prayer. The EZ will start voting as a bloc, it has to - and if any countries attempt to play renegade then we've all seen what happened with Greece and others when the EU, ECB and IMF imposed extreme austerity policies on them by threatening no more bailouts. If you could point out a legal guarantee and institutional changes to protect us then sure, but you cannot.

Do you really believe that the German and French political elites and Commission are going to let a populist government in say Greece block banking union when the very survival of the currency union and entire project itself depends on that being pushed through? It will steamroller onwards as always.

‘If it’s a Yes we will say “on we go”, and if it’s a No we will say “we continue”.’(Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Council)


“They must go on voting until they get it right.”
(Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission)


“I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,”
(French Prime Minister Raymond Barre)


“Let’s be clear about this. The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected.”
(Valéry Giscard d’Estaing)


“The ‘no’ votes were a demand for more Europe, not less.”
(Romano Prodi, former President of the European Commission)

In any case it still doesn't answer the ultimate which is that when political union is achieved we'll be out as the EU won't legally exist. So why stay?

[The Don]

The paragraph you've posted is meaningless fluff. Unless there's something put into the treaties aka legal guarantees such as reinstating the British veto across all QMV areas to guarantee otherwise then you're living on a hope and a prayer. The EZ will start voting as a bloc, it has to - and if any countries attempt to play renegade then we've all seen what happened with Greece and others when the EU, ECB and IMF imposed extreme austerity policies on them by threatening no more bailouts. If you could point out a legal guarantee and institutional changes to protect us then sure, but you cannot.

Do you really believe that the German and French political elites and Commission are going to let a populist government in say Greece block banking union?



In any case it still doesn't answer the ultimate which is that when political union is achieved we'll be out as the EU won't legally exist. So why stay?

That paragraph of "meaningless fluff" is directly quoted from the report you keep frequently mentioning and using as evidence. Well done on showing how poorly thought out your arguments are. You've been shown to be wrong on pretty much every argument you've made, this debate is done. Ciao

[-:Undertaker:-]

That paragraph of "meaningless fluff" is directly quoted from the report you keep frequently mentioning and using as evidence. Well done on showing how poorly thought out your arguments are. You've been shown to be wrong on pretty much every argument you've made, this debate is done. Ciao

The report is evidence in that it states where they intend to go - federal Europe - which is what I claimed. It doesn't mean it isn't also full of waffle.

Our government once commissioned a report in 2002 called the September Dossier if you recall, stating how they intended to go to war (which ultimately they did) and how the Iraqi regime was hiding Weapons of Mass Destruction. That was all waffle but alas the government still took us to war.

Please answer my last point than try and catch me out on language technicalities. It ruins what is an enjoyable discussion.

[-:Undertaker:-]

An interesting comparison table I have come across comparing EU status with EEA (Norway) status. In the event of a Leave vote I would prefer the EFTA or FTA option but if we are to find a middle ground for now I would be happy to settle for EEA with some changes. Rational remainers should be advocating EEA.

My main goal in this referendum is to simply halt & reverse the transfer of powers from Britain to the European Union. EEA status does that forever.

The above would exempt us from most of the political stuff (which we all mostly do not want on both sides) and guarantee social & economic co-operation.

What's not to like unless you advocate a federal Europe?