Business/Foreign Workers

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well, on the basis you despise immigration on the basis it artificially lowers wages, surely you must therefore be in favour of an ever increasing minimum wage - as it means that no amount of immigration can continually lower wages.

There's no connection between the two - see what I said to @FlyingJesus;

Mass immigration I would end (as is happening) so there wouldn't be this problem.

oh my god what? NO

this just shows how uninformed you all are!

i'm a european citizen and i'm also irish, no worker visa is NEEDED

even if we take being european out of the equation, ireland and the UK have an agreement where both can work and move freely between the countries since the 1920s, however with the UK leaving europe we're in the process of trying to reestablish it and we're not too sure what will happen since Ireland will still be in the EU therefore there are border issues.

If the border becomes an issue with checkpoints then so what?

I keep hearing you go on about this but I don't quite understand why?

Fallon has announced this isn't happening.

A win for the majority.

The majority!? What planet are you living on... did you pay any attention to the polling on this?

The Home Secretary and the Education Secretary (who was just on Peston an hour or two ago) say otherwise.

But yeah I thought you were in favour of the free market Dan rather than imposing specific levels of wages on businesses and letting government dictate how private companies can work

I haven't said I support a specific level of wage on business though. I simply said that business shouldn't be able to artificially depress workers wages by an endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. In normal market conditions, wages would rise naturally if the cost of living (for Britons) wasn't worth working for the wage hence the employer would then be forced to raise his wages.

If a farmer is paying £6.50 an hour in Kent to package products and no British people are applying then he should be raising his wage (as most businesses have to do) to get staff. Instead, he simply hires Poles and Lithuanians.

[wixard]

one country is going to be in the EU and the other country will not be for the first time since the agreement, how is that so hard to comprehend?

it predates the EU but that doesn't mean it's set in stone

for someone so invested you should probably read up on it, UK-irish bilateral trade is huge and nobody has given any answers


this might help you

http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/10/06/...lly-need-them/

[dbgtz]

To me, a business should ultimately be allowed to employ whoever they want. I'm not a huge fan of companies being forced to publish this kind of data as it doesn't really serve much other than "muh representation" or some shite and will probably just be used as a political tool.

[AgnesIO]

There's no connection between the two - see what I said to @FlyingJesus;

Mass immigration I would end (as is happening) so there wouldn't be this problem.



If the border becomes an issue with checkpoints then so what?

I keep hearing you go on about this but I don't quite understand why?



The majority!? What planet are you living on... did you pay any attention to the polling on this?

The Home Secretary and the Education Secretary (who was just on Peston an hour or two ago) say otherwise.



I haven't said I support a specific level of wage on business though. I simply said that business shouldn't be able to artificially depress workers wages by an endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. In normal market conditions, wages would rise naturally if the cost of living (for Britons) wasn't worth working for the wage hence the employer would then be forced to raise his wages.

If a farmer is paying £6.50 an hour in Kent to package products and no British people are applying then he should be raising his wage (as most businesses have to do) to get staff. Instead, he simply hires Poles and Lithuanians.

Perhaps British workers should stop feeling so entitled to a middle class lifestyle, and earning what the job is worth?

I'm not asking for people to be poor, but your logic is flawed as British workers simply don't want to do jobs that they view to be 'below them'.

If they can't get a job doing anything else, they shouldn't have the choice to take nothing.

YouGov surveys aren't truly representative, either; they do a good job, but ignore a vast amount of the population as they are only done online, aren't they?

[FlyingJesus]

If a farmer is paying £6.50 an hour in Kent to package products and no British people are applying then he should be raising his wage (as most businesses have to do) to get staff. Instead, he simply hires Poles and Lithuanians.

Yeah because it's a free market. Which you claim to support. You either do or don't, a "yes except..." answer isn't a yes, and being FORCED to raise wages is not in the interests of a free market and 100% is an introduction of specific wage levels. There's nothing artificial about what people are paid, and there's nothing normal about making businesses block people from working because they're willing to do it for less

[-:Undertaker:-]

one country is going to be in the EU and the other country will not be for the first time since the agreement, how is that so hard to comprehend?

it predates the EU but that doesn't mean it's set in stone

for someone so invested you should probably read up on it, UK-irish bilateral trade is huge and nobody has given any answers

this might help you

http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/10/06/...lly-need-them/

I am aware of the past agreements which have been effectively superseded by European Union agreements. And this has what to do with us because to seem to be complaining about it in every thread it comes up? The Republic of Ireland remains in the European Union and thus is subject to the Single Market and the Freedom of Movement principle: the United Kingdom no longer will be having voted to Leave. It's pretty clear what that means. You'll be subjects to the constraints of Brussels and we won't be.

The answers will come once your masters in Brussels have decided for you. That's not our problem or fault is it?

Perhaps British workers should stop feeling so entitled to a middle class lifestyle, and earning what the job is worth?

I'm not asking for people to be poor, but your logic is flawed as British workers simply don't want to do jobs that they view to be 'below them'.

If they can't get a job doing anything else, they shouldn't have the choice to take nothing.

What's really so hard to understand about this issue? British workers have families, mortgages, quality of life and rents to pay for. Therefore, for a British worker to work it must therefore be WORTH it in financial terms. If an employer is struggling to hire staff in the unskilled sector in an area of high unemployment, then the employer is not offering enough.

Now then I am sure you point out how Polish men will do the work. Of course. And that's because they don't have families to pay for here, they don't have mortgages to pay for, they don't have any quality of life other than working and sleeping and their rent is very low given how they'll sleep 6 to a room in bunk beds.

So is your answer for Britons to start competing with Poles in living conditions like that?

YouGov surveys aren't truly representative, either; they do a good job, but ignore a vast amount of the population as they are only done online, aren't they?

Typical from someone who doesn't like the results of a scientific poll to question it.

The majority support this measure and just because your social media feed or the Guardian comments page say otherwise is irrelevant. There's many topics and issues in polling that I find conflict with what I believe but I don't then go to rubbish it and claim to still be championing majority opinion just because me, my friends and all the comments on the Daily Mail said so.

Yeah because it's a free market. Which you claim to support. You either do or don't, a "yes except..." answer isn't a yes, and being FORCED to raise wages is not in the interests of a free market and 100% is an introduction of specific wage levels. There's nothing artificial about what people are paid, and there's nothing normal about making businesses block people from working because they're willing to do it for less

Where did I say forced to raise wages or blocking people? Misunderstanding here what I am saying.

I am not for artificial measures such as a minimum wage or raising a minimum wage. But I am also not for artificial measures such as importing huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe who'll work in second world living conditions for a pittance wage. Now how's that against my free market principles? I'm very free market: with controlled borders.

[FlyingJesus]

Where did I say forced to raise wages or blocking people?

If British people aren't willing to work for a measly wage then an employer in a natural market would be forced to up his wages in order to find staff to do the work

Again nothing "natural" about it, and if you want to force this situation, you're for forcing wage increases against the free market

But I am also not for artificial measures such as importing huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe who'll work in second world living conditions for a pittance wage

How is someone's real living condition artificial? Unless a person is literally enslaved then working what you're willing to work for the wage you're willing to receive is 100% what the free market is about, not saying to businesses "ok but you can't hire them because I don't want you to"

[Inseriousity.]

Fallon didn't say it wouldn't be happening:

UK companies will not be told to list or name foreign workers they employ, the government has said.
Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon told the BBC: "This is not going to happen" but said firms could be asked "simply to report their numbers".
That data could help identify skills gaps or be a factor in deciding whether to grant firms more visas for overseas workers, a government source said.

Wasn't that always the policy? Admittedly, I didn't listen to Rudd's speech but I always thought it was going to be a reporting of the numbers/percentage of foreign workers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37600566

[-:Undertaker:-]

Again nothing "natural" about it, and if you want to force this situation, you're for forcing wage increases against the free market

It isn't forcing anything.

Look. When we talk about markets and free markets, unless you're a total anarchist we're talking about our own in this country to which our rules, ways and people apply mostly. Countries are like cells: you have an outer wall and that outer wall is the end of your internal market. Now having total access to other countries in terms of immigration is an artificial addition to our market given how it essentially extends a right that usually comes with British nationality to tens of millions of other people in Eastern Europe. That's only come about since 2004. So you've essentially got a situation where our internal market has been opened up to tens of millions of workers from other markets where the wages and living conditions are vastly different but they now have the unrestricted right to come here.

That's aritificial. It's like if we took your "ha got you on the free market" idea to the extreme (anarchy) then we'd saying we should abolish all product safety checks on imports from Africa and South America "becuz the free market" well no because by dropping all checks and balances on outside forces you then cease to have a market and you have total anarchy.

How is someone's real living condition artificial? Unless a person is literally enslaved then working what you're willing to work for the wage you're willing to receive is 100% what the free market is about, not saying to businesses "ok but you can't hire them because I don't want you to"

For the reasons I explained to @AgnesIO;

If proponents of open borders are arguing that British workers should compete and live in the conditions that Polish workers do (6 to a room, no quality of life, working round the clock) then I say go right ahead.

But to me there's more than worshipping the market and GDP. There's such a thing as our society.

[FlyingJesus]

So in your world anything that's not the way it was in the past is artificial, ignoring the fact that it's entirely real and not nearly as made up as your idea that everyone from Poland sleeps like sardines