iPhone - Good idea? [Closes 10/02/07]

[Joe!]

It needs to be bigger than 8gb then i think more people would buy it.

[HUGECOOL]

In a small group you can notice the problems "/ That's how some surveyors get the information with products, by analyzing small groups at a time to pick out the pros and cons. Say for example you take 6 people, 3 with one company and 3 with another. You tally the problems and get the outcome. Obviously you wouldn't count all of them globally, because it is a waste of effort and time, because in that time the information would become invalid if the product is updated.

Although the iPod is popular, it still means that each iPod is the same. If Apple let a completely trashed iPod go, they should have the brains to stop manufacteur to see if the whole batch has an error, as do most companies.

When you get reviews on an iPod, there are about 5 times more reports on it than a Zen, which would get one or two. This can indicate that an iPod is prone to more problems than a Zen (or other company). t's the fact that the iPod has more obvious flaws than a Zen.

A Zen is created to withstand day to day life. The iPod was designed to look pretty above most things "/

When you make claims like those, include the sources for your stats. Otherwise, I'd just be arguing on things you've seen or heard, but cannot actually show- which is what proof is about.

Now, the old iPod did fail (my 4G iPod had to be sent back 3 times, and I got a new one each time.). I won't say it doesn't, but in any instance, sources are still necessary for proof of stats. "/

In fact, I have a site I found that shows iPod reliability by generation and model. http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/ipodfailures.html

I never found one that showed a comparison in these results with another companies, but you probably have it since you included these in your argument.

Apple advertised the iPod at the right time to the right people, but it still doesn't mean the product is any better. Mc Donalds gets celebs, cartoons etc to appear on their products, doesn't mean the food is any better, obviously "/

Sony, Creative, Samsung and so on never needed to advertise, because they were already well known, which is probably where they went wrong.

Apple still has loads of battles go on, like this download issues where if you download from iTunes, you cannot play the music on any other MP3 player. They will always be known to some people for copying an idea from one company and effectively winning the battle by notoriously making up at the last minute that they used the technology for years, even though it hasn't. They will always be known to be designed impractical for most users. The only sturdy iPod which I liked was the iPod mini, because it was built nicely and noticebly didn't crash/break/snap like the replacement iPod nano "/Irrelevant to the argument.

No, other products in its time were better and cheaper (like Creative's Nomad Jukebox player, which my friend bought at the time because a store told him it was an iPod oO), but there was no actual market leader for that market. Which is how Apple became popular. They showed the public that mp3 players did have the upper hand over cd players and didn't have to look bulky and non-portable. As I said before, Apple was more than selling just another mp3 player. They sold a concept, and it was bought.

Wishful thinking on Microsofts part by the looks of it "/ And looking at reports from France and other European country, Apple doesn't believe in FairPlay with their "un-social" DRM "/ So if you want a song from iTunes, you have to go use another company. So Apple are just doing anti-competitive behaviour.

Reminds me of the whole US vs. Microsoft trials back in 98 concerning Explorer. "/

Before this, Apple had their own Microsoft Office called AppleWorks? They still have this I believe, but Apple knew it was crap so they knew what the next best thing was to do, get Microsoft Office, which is used globally by lots of people.

AppleWorks is the equivalent of Microsoft Works (oxymoron? ), which ships free with almost all Windows-based computers. Microsoft Office is the alternative suite that can be purchased separately as you would on a Windows PC in order to have documents that are compatible on both platforms. Although the Rich Text Format is also available on AW.

I don't even know how I got dragged into the OS argument, I only described the basic information that I know, but the argument developed and I got sucked into it.

Because you kept kept arguing about Mac OS flaws which you haven't actually experienced other than hearing about it, and we went from there. "/

He may know just about as you "/ You could study alot at home about Law and still achieve about as good knowledge as a Graduate. This is where Home School comes in. You can learn to do your GCSE's at hoome and still take the exam and pass with flying colours. So this argument is flawed "/

The only flaw I see here is your response, because I said the person correcting the graduate was a layman. A laymanis 'a person who is a non-expert in a given field of knowledge', so the person would not have a clue what they're talking about. "/

The point is, that Windows is better with what you can do with the system, while OS X is all down to how far you can go because Macs block off areas. More companies are capable of infinitely editting a Windows System to however they please, than what they can do with a Mac. Macs are harder to upgrade hardware wise than a Windows System.

And we've already agreed to that. "/ And I was talking about the O/S not the hardware they run on.

You don't need experience with something "/ So you're the sort that would drink acid just to know it can kill you? You can use reason in an argument, it is just as good as experience "/ And I've used someone else? No, I've gathered information from loads of people as sources to get an outcome for the argument and how they are run. Apple are an anti-competitive company who are trying to be the best by doing everything, which is actually against the law, by trying to control a whole consumer environment. Choice is what is needed, not everything being Apple Products "/

And I was speaking about experience in computer operating systems, not as a whole concept. "/ I said 'the subject at hand', referring to Windows vs. Mac. Apple just make less wasteful products. They attempt to get a hit product every time and don't make many iterations of that product unless its successful.

It's as simple as having common sense as to not touch stuff you don't know what you're doing. You have to be pretty thick if you see something and descide to delete it "/ And some users do play around with those folders, but they're normally advanced. Again, it is the users fault if they are dumb enough to delete stuff they have no idea what they're doing. If you don't know what it is, leave it. You can hide these folders away with proper administrative tools. It is, what theya re there for "/

So it is simple "/

Most people that buy computers have very slim knowledge of computers, let alone how to mange group policies and restrict access from certain tasks, so even if the user themselves delete the file, in the end its Microsoft's fault by making that file viewable to computer-illiterate people in the first place? Different things could be done to ameliorate this issue, one of them being just to provide the user an option to show or hide these folders based on their computer knowledge. "/ So the product is at fault in the end.

People are often told to get a proper working spyware and firewall on their computers, if they are dumb enough to ignore this, they probably deserved it and possibly have nothing important on the system in the long run worth protecting anyway.

I also read yesterday on my Wii that Vista comes with a built in Spyware program, which sounds interesting. But I will wait until all the bugs are fixed until I get it.

That's like saying that "a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place." "/

So you're never getting Vista?

Hardware is something a user would need for usability, productivity and out-of-the-box experience "/ Without it, you won't have anything to use, it would just be a blank screen "/ For example, RAM to speed up the computer which makes it faster to use and therefore increases productivity "/

The website compares the operating systems by buying machines of equivalent specs for both platforms so that the only the operating system is the only difference while performance will depend on how the o/s manages resources. "/

Vista systems can handle far more than 16GB of RAM, but it will costs alot and there is no where to put all the hardware into it. And I agree, delving into this which just be another "this system does roughly the same as this." So the argument which just turn into another argument which will get us off the original argument, which seems to be buried somewhere...

Yeah, that's why I said 8GB, since most motherboards only come with 4 memory slots, assuming each memory stick was 2GB each.

Loads of people press the first letter of the contact, the only person I know who doesn't is my mum, who does now because she spent ages looking for a contact and I told her to press the first initial "/ It does have quite a fast scrool action the iPhone, but it is still faster to just type the first letter of the contact in the long run. Especially if you have lots of contact. It will just be tiring and wasteful time, where you need to make that quick phone call:

"Agghh! I need to phone my nan!" *scrolls up* "Nope, that Barbara" *scrolls more* "Nope, thats Fred" *scrolls more* "Nope, that's Jess"

I could go on for ages, but you should hopefully get the point.

Since each name is listed alphabetically on the iPhone, and separated by big, bold blue lines, it wouldn't be difficult to fast-scroll to the letter and select the contact. oO

Not really? I never praised the Prada phones camera, I was praising the fact that it looks more impressive and has what the iPhone has (expect multi-touch screen) and it is coming out before the iPhone. I never said it was 100% better "/

When you said, "A product doesn't have to be better in every way to be completely better", that pretty much includes the iPhone (since it's still a product, or soon to be anyway), since it isn't completely better but improvements are made in some areas, and since your original argument (from many pages ago) was that the idea of Apple introducing a phone would be a terrible product just because it's from Apple (you argue about quality and audio formats).

So where did this argument come from? Were we agreeing to the same thing but discussing it as if we weren't?

We were arguing on that we agreed, it looks like. o_O

It does look familiar, so I'll go with that. It still proves that reviews Apple did on their product were biased, rather than truthful. Apple were said that the iPod was the best sounding MP3 player when it was released. But Sony has, and possibily still is, the best soudning MP3 player out there.

Sony is a company, not an MP3 player, but they do make MP3 players. And you said Apple claimed sound on their iPod was best? Source this?

It's not, but just pressing a button or flicking a switch is easier than holding a button which already has a purpose.

It's a non-issue. If something as trivial as turning off the iPod were an issue, Apple would have addressed that issue through a possible firmware update. (ie- adding an 'off' option to the main menu). Since a great majority of iPod owners pretty much figure this out when reading the instructions, it's not really something worth investing time and money in.

But in most countries, Wireless Internet is hard to come by which is actually free and easy to use. It would be great in places like North (or South, can't remember) Korea and parts of America, but in Britain, you'll just have to pay for it, and us Brits can be very picky about this It'll be easier just to use at home, where you can save the files and work just a tab more easily with a full keyboard, than the iPhone keypad.

Pffft, you're lucky. At UK Starbucks, you have to pay and most Wireless Connections are passwrod protected or locked down so you can't use them. Businesses ask you to input a username and password, which you can't easily get a hold of. It's very different here in the UK than there in the US.

It would be the same as using mobile Internet on a regular phone. oO Except bigger screen, advanced browser, and so on. About paying for wireless connections, that would still be pretty much solved because when the iPhone doesn't find a wireless connection to go to, it uses the networks Internet. Granted, it's slower therefore less convenient, but if you really needed to see something on the Internet, it would be there no matter where you're at- hot spots or not.

You can still have some idea, so when you do use the product, you'll know near enough exactly what to do.

Yes, you can have an idea on how to use a product. But it's different when you're degrading a product (consumer electronic) without having used it first, basing your grudges on the product on what someone had to say on the product.

If they were false, they would be either removed from the website or argued against, and most the reviews are roughly the same in some areas, which hints they are true unless loads of people like wasting time posting false information "/ The iPhone isn't out yet, but you can just alot from videos and pre-release reviews from people who have used one for purposes of a review. As stated, you have to take longer finding a contact.

Misinformation is what I'm getting at. Some people, through their naivety, can spread information that isn't true and do so without getting caught. Take this individual for example. Larry Bodine describes his terrible experience with an Apple computer and writes about it. All his situations could've been avoided and no issues would have been confronted. Oh, and he's also a marketer- this misinformation was pretty much just trolling for hits, and it worked, so there are many more misinformed people about Macs as there were before.

Which is how the idea of defensive Mac users gets out of hand- when we present knowledge of the product to those who have misinterpreted it, it's often viewed as angry apple fans trolling. =P

Photo Editting on a phone makes it easier to edit a photo on the go so you don't have to take it home to edit a photo. You can change the contrast etc with it. It would be good with an iPhone, but nothing has been mentioned, so we'll have to wait.

The feature would be for convenience I guess, but it's also a preference thing. I do photography sometimes and I'd rather edit photos properly on a computer than doing a sloppy job on the phone and correcting errors on the computer, which would just be counter-productive.

Apple was proved to have stolen the technology from Creative Labs and had to fork out over $100,000 to pay for its use. And besides, you said earlier tha if you base an idea on something in existence, it would be copyright infringement. So you've contradicted yourself there.

"Ideas are taken from something already in existance? Wouldn't that be called copyright infringement? "/"

Is what you said. An idea and something similar are different.

No, it wasn't $100,000 lol. It was $100M. Big difference.

If you copy an idea in a patent, BUT use different technology to make it work, it's legal. That's assuming the actual concept wasn't patented and all. "/

Not necessarily his exact theories, but the idea behind them do apply.

Oh, and since his time, patenting and copyrighting ideas have become a whole lot more complicated.

Hmmmm, fascinating. So the technology behind the multi-touch screen on the iPhone and Synaptic phone are from different sources, but are roughly the same? There is still a possibility that FingerWorks got the idea orignally from the touch-pad that Synpatics brought out when notebooks/laptops came around.

'Roughly the same' in the sense that both require finger input to respond. But the technology is extremely different. In the article, it said the creators just took the input methods that were used and made them into peripherals with no hard buttons but instead used touch input, though it could be very possible that Synaptic's technology was looked at since they are a big contributor to laptop input.

I saw it when he was holding down a button at the bottom of the iPhone and with the other he pressed an icon to open the iPod.

He only pressed one button- the iPod button. oO But to get to the main menu which displayed the iPod he pressed the physical Home button first, but both were not pressed simultaneously.

Visual voice mail is just an improved idea on regular voice mail, nothing too spectacular and out of the ordinary about that "/

It's still an improved idea, which was what you were saying in the first place. "/

We'll just have to wait till it is released or more information comes out about it. Apple.com has hardly any information on it, like specifications. It just talks about products it has made already and the touch screen.

Yes, they've hardly released any information on it so the official site is ironically not the best place to look for info at. "/

That's not what you said, you said resizing the pictures, not the gap between your finger and thumb:

"All the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures."

Which was said on the other page "/

So how comes you said it was for resizing the images

Yes, I used the term incorrectly in some occasions, and I actually meant zooming in on pictures while resizing the space between your thumb and index finger. But in any case, your initial claim was that the manner in which the iPhone offered that functionality was inconvenient since you assumed the iPhone resized images instead of zooming in on them. oO

No, it still looks to me that you were talking about the applications already installed on the phone. It doesn't matter if a word has an "s" on the end, it still needs a word that describe "Something that can handle alot of applications on."

I just realized here that we were both talking about different things. You were talking about an application that can handle multi tasks, and I was talking about pre-installed applications. And I'm not sure why you were talking about multi-tasking on a phone if you were actually talking about quality and quantity being irrelevant. o_O

Because it is still new technology, which an audience want? Regardless to whether it has multi-touch or not "/

No, that's not the point I was making. Yes, it's a new technology- that's been well established. What I'm pointing out is that is that you said the Prada phone would offer multi-touch as one of its features, which I proved incorrect when I told you that wasn't the case because the touch would only have improved user response, not added functionality- the fault lying in your claims about its touch-screen technology which were incorrect to make.

Sony Ericsson k800i comes with:

Face Warp
HP Print
Photo Mate
Video DJ
Photo DJ
Music DJ
Radio
Bluetooth Remote Control
Sound Recorder

Mainly Sony phones "/

That's one phone. oO And of course cybershot phones would offer those programs. Their integrated cameras are very high quality and so its only logical that a phone with such a camera to offer photo editing programs for convenience to the user. But the iPhone's camera is pretty average- enough for a picture here and there, but its photographic abilities isnt something its contributing to cell phones since there are already phones that specialize in this functionality.

So it's basically another version of what Sony has on their phones of Running Apps, My Shorts cuts and so on?

Not really since it isn't a standalone program- just a function that works in sync to what the user is doing in different modes.

No, the main purpose of the iPhone is the fact it is a phone "/ How do you know playlists can be made manually? And what is the difference between smart playlists and regular playlists?

I was saying that the iPhone's main functionality wasn't being a music player, in a strange sarcastic manner- guess it didn't work. ;l And all iPods offer the option of making playlists manually, and the keynote also mentioned this as well. These are smart playlists. Regular playlists would be ones a user manually creates.

A smart feature would be have a menu on the right or left hand side of the screen which has letters of the alphabet which can go straight to the menu. Plus, this argument of how quick it can do certain things came from your argument.

Then you scroll when you have the letter, it still makes it faster than the finger scroll "/ One click which is like a few scrolls with the finger if you are heading towards the middle of the alphabet, then a few small scrolls which still take a few finger scrolls on the iPhone. Do the math

Actually, the iPhone also has a 'favorites' feature where you could just add people you call most often and just choose from there. So the example you gave wouldn't really be an issue if you had relatives on that list.

This would be useless in Britain, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to see anything. When it does get close enough, it goes all blurry and you can't really notice anything "/ The iPhone is really only good in America, and London.

As stated, you can't see much in a blur "/ You would be better off using MultiMaps.com, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to get any good detail. And if you really wanted to know what a place looks like., surely you would want a more portrait view? Rather an overhead view? "This is a nice roof, let's go there!" This really only effects anyone who doesn't live in America.

Satellite images are optional, just as they are optional in regular Google Maps. You can still have the normal viewing so it's not as if anywhere that doesn't offer clear pictures would be useless to use this function in. Street names would be shown, directions are there, and even function to find businesses in the area. It's useful where ever you're at.

And as I am stating, you cannot implement a tool any differently on the iPhone than you would on any other phone that may come out with the same features. "/

The way the features work together, how the they work in sync with each other is how the iphone is very different than how these things would work on another phone. With every phone maker, you get a different experience- Nokia's phones and Sony's phones offer the same features but the way they integrate design, ease of use, and functionality in the phone is usually the buying point for many people, who buy the phone depending on what they are going to use the phone for and if the phone offers the functionality on which to use these functions on.

So you are going against your idea that the phone would look like that when it is released and stating pretty much what I said?

I am agreeing with your response which agreed with mine on this. oO

Meh, go crazy

I'd rather not.

Considering the height of it, it can fit in a pocket without a bit sticking out "/ When I did my Zen in my pocket, I was walking, which means my leg can freely move about, when I sat down it was uncomfortable and I just took it out and shuved it in my bag.

It goes in my bag normally, it depends if I am in a hurry and haven#t got the time to put it in my bag so I just run off with it in my hand put it in a trouser pcoket or coat pocket "/ The original argument was the iPhone I believe, not the iPod, even though iPod Nanos have been proven to snap in trouser pockets "/

No I don't wear skin tight jeans, I like comfort rather than pain

Resting stuff on your thigh is worse to rest objects on inside your pocket "/ Because that's where it gets tight and naturally where you leg and hip bend. With pockets that aren't deep, the iPhone cannot fit comfortable unless you really want to see if it can bend.

tbh, this just depends on user preference, and its pointless arguing on something that will be eventually be done anyway despite measurements, fragility, and other physical properties of mobile devices. Some people prefer them in their pockets while others lug around bags to put their junk in. And others just clip them outside their clothes for faster access.

I gathered that after I posted

Yeah, even though I used the same site for the third time?

It depends what you do with them really, anything can snap. The most minimal damage is the screen cracking with a video, with the iPhone, it would be the casing, or anything inside. "/

iPod Videos are not as prone to having the display broken when put in a bag as a smaller iPod would. That's why people buy insurance for their products upon purchase. Since the iPhone is going to be sold through wireless carriers, I'm pretty positive they're going to offer insurance policies for it.

So it must be a weaker form of aluminium, because if it was stronger than the aluminium of a can, they wouldn't snap so easily "/

Not always "/ You can get physical common sense, using reasoning to understand how something could work. Like obviously if you want something with rought the same density of a straw, it would bend with hardly any effort "/

It's the same kind that was used on the iPod Mini, which you yourself stated that was the best iPod made- so you're only contradicting yourself when you fault the casing here and praise it in a previous argument. o_O

But if I did link you to a blog about this, then you would just argue that they have no proof about it "/ The fact I have seen these with my own eyes is enough, considering this is hardly a huge debate, it only turned to one because you believe it to be. Considering the forum audience isn't one made up mainly of big time debaters, its main purpose was a pretty basic debate on things "/

Usually bloggers have photos of their happenings, because most bloggers are narcissistic about themselves. Which would be like accusing a priest of piety tbh. :rolleyes: But anyway, blogs would be sources. What I'm getting at is having some third party website show these happenings or explain a situation is a source. Validity would just be based on past posts made by the blogger and such- nothing big.

Of course "/ If I didn't then she would of said she fixed a few days later. But she didn't, she got a different MP3 player in the end, because Apple claimed it was her fault, even though it just locked and never turned off "/

Oh, and if the iPod was unable to unlock you can just connect it a computer via USB and it unlocks automatically. If something were wrong with the firmware, a simple restore would fix any firmware issue. All that could be found on the Apple site for troubleshooting iPods. I'm guessing visiting the website was never an option? "/

You're ignoring it because it is true "/ I emailed creative about my problem and they said there is no need to get an update unless I think it is necessary. It was a problem with the screen, which an update won't do "/

No, lol. I'm ignoring it because I know how someone of your technological expertise (slim to none) would handle a situation that little help and just common sense user maintenance. "/ And someone without knowledge on how electronics work would know when an update is needed? Really? :rolleyes:

As stated, if it is working perfectly well, why waste time with it? Performance is hardly anything to worry about when it is performing well "/

This is coming from someone who denies the fact that you don't need to update performance when it is performing well to begin with "/

Again, let's go with the Windows Updates example. Let's say your computer was running perfectly- no troubles or issues. Windows Updates has updates for your computer, but your logic says 'The computer is working fine- why should I update?". So you don't update. A very important patch was included in that update which you never installed so you start experiencing issues when doing certain tasks. So your initial reaction would be to blame the product even though the fault lies in you not wanting to update because its 'time consuming'. So you've established that its the product's fault for not working properly. So the computer suddenly stop working and you re-install everything and update it this time. And everything could've been avoided by updating. But you'll probably never understand- but that's a good thing. You're the reason customer service exists and provide many individuals with jobs assisting people with your 'Don't fix it if it ain't broken' mindset. So, here's a collective 'thanks' from customer service around the world.

(Oh, I won't be here for a couple of days due to a family emergency, so I'll reply when I come back to town.)

And btw, your writing style changed- not that its good or bad- just something I noticed. Looks like someone else's.

[GommeInc]

[COLOR="Black"]
When you make claims like those, include the sources for your stats. Otherwise, I'd just be arguing on things you've seen or heard, but cannot actually show- which is what proof is about.

How am I meant to get a source for something that is practically everywhere? If you do Business Studies, go find a book and look up marketing. If you do Leisure and Tourism, go look up marketing in one of those books "/ Dove, a soap company, took about 8 women and let them use their product for free for about 2 weeks to see what happened and got them to report back. Danone, a yoghurt company surveyed a group of women with digestive discomfort and got them to report back "/

It's hardly something you need proof for, especially when it is a common trait in businesses "/ They don't see the point in asking hundreds or thoasands of people, they just ask a small group.

Now, the old iPod did fail (my 4G iPod had to be sent back 3 times, and I got a new one each time.). I won't say it doesn't, but in any instance, sources are still necessary for proof of stats. "/


In fact, I have a site I found that shows iPod reliability by generation and model. http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/ipodfailures.html

I never found one that showed a comparison in these results with another companies, but you probably have it since you included these in your argument.

As stated in my first reply, just ask around your college/school/workplace and do a sort of mental survey. Unless Apple seem to like distributing faulty good to certain areas, and excellent goods to other, then the results are pretty accurate.

No, other products in its time were better and cheaper (like Creative's Nomad Jukebox player, which my friend bought at the time because a store told him it was an iPod oO), but there was no actual market leader for that market. Which is how Apple became popular. They showed the public that mp3 players did have the upper hand over cd players and didn't have to look bulky and non-portable. As I said before, Apple was more than selling just another mp3 player. They sold a concept, and it was bought.

An MP3 player has been around for years, people went to them if they wanted to. They weren't talked about much "/ You simply plug in, and play. Creative brought out the Zen, which was just a bit bigger than a Mini, which came just before Apple made drive-based MP3 players known. Creative never seized it, because their mistake was thinking that people would slowly convert. Apple forcefully made itself known by advertising in most tech shops and intrigued audiences about it.

Apple, as you said, intercepted and made it known to people who didn't give one bit of notice to this. Clever, really.

Reminds me of the whole US vs. Microsoft trials back in 98 concerning Explorer. "/

That is irrelevant to the argument. Apple still are being anti-competitive with their iTunes so that if you have anything owned/created by Apple, you are pretty well ok. If you have anything else, you're stuffed. Apple have Safari, so they have nothing to moan about with IE. Even though IE is available for Mac users.

The case was resolved anyway, so Apple are just being petty really "/

AppleWorks is the equivalent of Microsoft Works (oxymoron? ), which ships free with almost all Windows-based computers. Microsoft Office is the alternative suite that can be purchased separately as you would on a Windows PC in order to have documents that are compatible on both platforms. Although the Rich Text Format is also available on AW.

So how comes you said Macs don't have an alterative "/ You made it sound as if Macs had Microsoft Works which you can make more advanced by getting MS Office.

Because you kept kept arguing about Mac OS flaws which you haven't actually experienced other than hearing about it, and we went from there. "/

Considering I read about it and what I discussed was pretty much proved correct. It advanced into catagories I haven't read about nor felt the need to discuss.

The only flaw I see here is your response, because I said the person correcting the graduate was a layman. A laymanis 'a person who is a non-expert in a given field of knowledge', so the person would not have a clue what they're talking about. "/

You can still be a "non-expert" and still know what you are discussing "/ Unless you feel you can self-proclaim it or have secretly taken a degree and become a master. So yeah, you can still learn and pretty much no everything without being an expert, unless it is self-proclaimed or there is proof you are an expert.

And we've already agreed to that. "/ And I was talking about the O/S not the hardware they run on.

That was a conclusional example to pretty much briefly describe one flaw, rather than a string of flaws which would conquer the idea of it being brief. The O/S is kinda what makes them different, you can edit or create your own, customised applications in a business and hardwire it into the system.

And I was speaking about experience in computer operating systems, not as a whole concept. "/ I said 'the subject at hand', referring to Windows vs. Mac. Apple just make less wasteful products. They attempt to get a hit product every time and don't make many iterations of that product unless its successful.

But people prefer choice and customisation, rather than "this product being the only one you can get, you'll have to wait till they make something like that."

Most people that buy computers have very slim knowledge of computers, let alone how to mange group policies and restrict access from certain tasks, so even if the user themselves delete the file, in the end its Microsoft's fault by making that file viewable to computer-illiterate people in the first place? Different things could be done to ameliorate this issue, one of them being just to provide the user an option to show or hide these folders based on their computer knowledge. "/ So the product is at fault in the end.

Ah but it isn't viewable to begin with... Windows hide them when you first look into the folder, you can ask to keep them hidden or have a look anyway at your own discression. If you foul up, it's your fault for going against what the system says when you first look at that folder. At least, that's what Window XP systems say "/

That's like saying that "a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place." "/

Considering there isn't restrictions on a PC like being trapped in a well, the example is a bit shakey. You deserved falling down the well for playing around it, but you still deserved to be saved.

With a PC, you should read the precautions and if you muck up, you can simply call Windows OR input the Windows Installation CD OR read the Windows Manual to see how you can restore it OR Go on another PC and look at the FAQ's on the Microsoft Website.

When you're down a well, you don't get these resources, other than some dirt.

So you're never getting Vista?

Lol clever I might do, I'll wait till all the major bugs are fixed.

The website compares the operating systems by buying machines of equivalent specs for both platforms so that the only the operating system is the only difference while performance will depend on how the o/s manages resources. "/

But each system has a different way of handling the resources it has? If an XP PC has 1GB of RAM and the OS X has the same, the OS X will obviously work faster, because it is their nature to be quite fast machines, as far as I am aware at least "/ Again, to a user, this varies how they use it, produce from it anything and out-of-box experience. Unless they can get different specs that make them roughly the same, but that would be difficult and possibly impossible,

Yeah, that's why I said 8GB, since most motherboards only come with 4 memory slots, assuming each memory stick was 2GB each.

I thought XP machines can't handle more than 4GB? Or am I thinking of laptops? Either way, when the new machines are out with Vista pre-installed, I imagine inside each PC would be more than 4 slots. The way it has been told in the news and in newspapers kinda hints this.

Since each name is listed alphabetically on the iPhone, and separated by big, bold blue lines, it wouldn't be difficult to fast-scroll to the letter and select the contact. oO

Seems like it would, if there are big, bold lines seperating each contact. This means that the contact list wile just be longer. Again, pressing one button and finding someone with that initial is just a bit faster. Especially when, looking at the iPhone in action, you may scroll past by accident.

When you said, "A product doesn't have to be better in every way to be completely better", that pretty much includes the iPhone (since it's still a product, or soon to be anyway), since it isn't completely better but improvements are made in some areas, and since your original argument (from many pages ago) was that the idea of Apple introducing a phone would be a terrible product just because it's from Apple (you argue about quality and audio formats).

My original argument was that Apple are just trying to make themselves into a huge conglomerate "/ or a company that is trying to be incharge of everything. I think conglomerate maybe the wrong word.

We were arguing on that we agreed, it looks like. o_O

Ha, I find it funny when that happens.

Sony is a company, not an MP3 player, but they do make MP3 players. And you said Apple claimed sound on their iPod was best? Source this?

When I meant Sony, I was talking about the MP3 Players they have their name on. I said Apple were said, which doesn't mean Apple said it themselves, but loads of people seem to think they are.

[quote-HUGECOOL]It's a non-issue. If something as trivial as turning off the iPod were an issue, Apple would have addressed that issue through a possible firmware update. (ie- adding an 'off' option to the main menu). Since a great majority of iPod owners pretty much figure this out when reading the instructions, it's not really something worth investing time and money in.[/quote]
In arguments, you may aswell go through all the trivial matters to pick out all the weak spots :rolleyes:

It would be the same as using mobile Internet on a regular phone. oO Except bigger screen, advanced browser, and so on. About paying for wireless connections, that would still be pretty much solved because when the iPhone doesn't find a wireless connection to go to, it uses the networks Internet. Granted, it's slower therefore less convenient, but if you really needed to see something on the Internet, it would be there no matter where you're at- hot spots or not.

As true as this is, people don't want to pay to use the internet (well, in the country at least) on their phones. That is, if the iPhone is coming to O2, Tescos, 3 and so on. You might have to use some other company which might not have the great features like O2 Pay and Go, which sometimes does free texts if you're an old, loyal customer. It's about as easy just going to a computer, where you can save the image or line of text with a few mere clicks of a mouse. Again, it depends if the iPhone version of Safari allows you to save images.

Yes, you can have an idea on how to use a product. But it's different when you're degrading a product (consumer electronic) without having used it first, basing your grudges on the product on what someone had to say on the product.

Not entirely different, no. You can hear that it doesn't so a certain thing and think "Oh, well, I don't want it then." Degrading is about as good as praising, even though praising is probably harder to do "/

Misinformation is what I'm getting at. Some people, through their naivety, can spread information that isn't true and do so without getting caught. Take this individual for example. Larry Bodine describes his terrible experience with an Apple computer and writes about it. All his situations could've been avoided and no issues would have been confronted. Oh, and he's also a marketer- this misinformation was pretty much just trolling for hits, and it worked, so there are many more misinformed people about Macs as there were before.

You get the same with PCs, where someone can easily come along and fix it. You have to be insane to judge your information on one individual. You pick out the possibilities and if there are more obvious possibilities in one thing, you go with that. Although, sometimes this isn;t the case, and you have to imploy logic.

Which is how the idea of defensive Mac users gets out of hand- when we present knowledge of the product to those who have misinterpreted it, it's often viewed as angry apple fans trolling. =P

Lol that's quite a funny phrase.

The feature would be for convenience I guess, but it's also a preference thing. I do photography sometimes and I'd rather edit photos properly on a computer than doing a sloppy job on the phone and correcting errors on the computer, which would just be counter-productive.

If you do Photography... Surely you would do it on a proper camera, preferrably D-SLR? Although you can get good camera phone photos, they're hardly as good quality or big enough even, to edit at home on a PC "/ And the editting programs are a good idea only for fun snaps or snaps that you want to quickly edit and show people as soon as possible, rather than big professional photos. Even so, it is better to take a photo as best it can be, without the need of editting it (I do photgraphy at college)

No, it wasn't $100,000 lol. It was $100M. Big difference.

I didn't want it to seem too big Even though they are 2 companies and alot of money would be used lol

If you copy an idea in a patent, BUT use different technology to make it work, it's legal. That's assuming the actual concept wasn't patented and all. "/

There is a huge possibility you can backtrack the ideas and reveal that the original concept was infact stolen from something, as you said, if it was patent.

Oh, and since his time, patenting and copyrighting ideas have become a whole lot more complicated.

Did they even have copyright back then? I doubt you could know if your idea was roughly the same or even tell if someone stole the idea and developed on it...

'Roughly the same' in the sense that both require finger input to respond. But the technology is extremely different. In the article, it said the creators just took the input methods that were used and made them into peripherals with no hard buttons but instead used touch input, though it could be very possible that Synaptic's technology was looked at since they are a big contributor to laptop input.

Which is where this idea that Apple probably copied the idea from kindles. But as you said, the tech behind them could be very different and are just similar in the way they act.

He only pressed one button- the iPod button. oO But to get to the main menu which displayed the iPod he pressed the physical Home button first, but both were not pressed simultaneously.

It looked like he pressed 2 at the time "/

It's still an improved idea, which was what you were saying in the first place. "/

So we were arguing over the same thing and were really just agreeing?

Yes, they've hardly released any information on it so the official site is ironically not the best place to look for info at. "/

Surely it is? Considering they've created it and have talked about it...

Yes, I used the term incorrectly in some occasions, and I actually meant zooming in on pictures while resizing the space between your thumb and index finger. But in any case, your initial claim was that the manner in which the iPhone offered that functionality was inconvenient since you assumed the iPhone resized images instead of zooming in on them. oO

I was talking about that they did use them to zoom in, but using the fingers is not as accurate as it can be. A single finger input could be more accurate.

I just realized here that we were both talking about different things. You were talking about an application that can handle multi tasks, and I was talking about pre-installed applications. And I'm not sure why you were talking about multi-tasking on a phone if you were actually talking about quality and quantity being irrelevant. o_O

I thought the argument was going a bit, flat... My argument was a phone that can handle alot of applications, rather than has alot of applications which the argument started on quality and quantity, I think?

No, that's not the point I was making. Yes, it's a new technology- that's been well established. What I'm pointing out is that is that you said the Prada phone would offer multi-touch as one of its features, which I proved incorrect when I told you that wasn't the case because the touch would only have improved user response, not added functionality- the fault lying in your claims about its touch-screen technology which were incorrect to make.

I think I got confused with this. The Prada phone was being advertised along side the iPhone and Synpatics phone on that website I shown, which never did specify properly what it did, so I assumed it was the same as the two and had multi-touch.

That's one phone. oO And of course cybershot phones would offer those programs. Their integrated cameras are very high quality and so its only logical that a phone with such a camera to offer photo editing programs for convenience to the user. But the iPhone's camera is pretty average- enough for a picture here and there, but its photographic abilities isnt something its contributing to cell phones since there are already phones that specialize in this functionality.

I know, amazing how much it has on it really "/ I wouldn't say a Cyber-Shot phone needs all them, considering the other Sony Ericsson phone which is the W200i has the same programs, just lacks Cyber-Shot. The Photo Editting on the phone is just one application afterall, and it has more of a purpose editting bad images, which phones without cyber-shot do need more than the k800i to make them look a bit better. Considering Apple has alot of programs, one which I hpe it has, which is photo editting, I kinda would of that it would have the ability to edit the photos, and the mistake you made about resizing also backed this idea. Not your fault really, shouldn't guess on someones mistakes

Not really since it isn't a standalone program- just a function that works in sync to what the user is doing in different modes.

There is some similarity still in there, although the Sony phones have it so it is any application/function, rather than different modes.

I was saying that the iPhone's main functionality wasn't being a music player, in a strange sarcastic manner- guess it didn't work. ;l And all iPods offer the option of making playlists manually, and the keynote also mentioned this as well. These are smart playlists. Regular playlists would be ones a user manually creates.

Smart Playlists sound strange really "/ It kinda sound similary to what any MP3 player does and picks out what the rating is on the song (by you) and the genre. You can create playlists with other phones on the phone too, it would be a good idea if this came with the iPhone too, considering the iPod is one of the major functions "/

Actually, the iPhone also has a 'favorites' feature where you could just add people you call most often and just choose from there. So the example you gave wouldn't really be an issue if you had relatives on that list.

Still a bummer if you want to find someone you don't regularly call but need to. Quick-Dial is coming into mind now...

Satellite images are optional, just as they are optional in regular Google Maps. You can still have the normal viewing so it's not as if anywhere that doesn't offer clear pictures would be useless to use this function in. Street names would be shown, directions are there, and even function to find businesses in the area. It's useful where ever you're at.

Suppose so, but with this Synaptics phone, you could just read the street name and wait till you get to your location to find out where you are. Wanting to know what an area looks like before hand is pretty strange really, only on the rare occasion you'll need it "/

And yes, I do know that the satellite option is, just an option. It is strange to think people will need it "/ Other than when you want to look at bird eye views of a building. I suppose you could investigate further by going on the wireless internet to get a view of the building from infront.

The way the features work together, how the they work in sync with each other is how the iphone is very different than how these things would work on another phone. With every phone maker, you get a different experience- Nokia's phones and Sony's phones offer the same features but the way they integrate design, ease of use, and functionality in the phone is usually the buying point for many people, who buy the phone depending on what they are going to use the phone for and if the phone offers the functionality on which to use these functions on.

Precisely, which is where the option of choice comes from. If a phone has what you got, or you like a certain brand, you'll go for that. It depends what the iPhone appeals to in the end. Business men and women or Gadget lovers it appears.

I am agreeing with your response which agreed with mine on this. oO

Ah, makes sense.

I'd rather not.

Really? Fine then

tbh, this just depends on user preference, and its pointless arguing on something that will be eventually be done anyway despite measurements, fragility, and other physical properties of mobile devices. Some people prefer them in their pockets while others lug around bags to put their junk in. And others just clip them outside their clothes for faster access.

Indeed. I think we were steering away from user preference and are only now just returning to it "/ It depends how wild you are with expensive/new things.

Yeah, even though I used the same site for the third time?

I know, it never came to me to use it

iPod Videos are not as prone to having the display broken when put in a bag as a smaller iPod would. That's why people buy insurance for their products upon purchase. Since the iPhone is going to be sold through wireless carriers, I'm pretty positive they're going to offer insurance policies for it.

Most phones have some sort of warranty on, so it is very likely it will have one too. Just a bit of a bummer if you snap it and need to send it away and have no phone for a while. Again, it depends what you do with the iPod Video and the bag was what I voted as the safest place

It's the same kind that was used on the iPod Mini, which you yourself stated that was the best iPod made- so you're only contradicting yourself when you fault the casing here and praise it in a previous argument. o_O

The iPod Mini was in a thicker case and was thicker itself. It also felt nicer to hold, rather than the Nano which is a bit smaller and smooth and the video too wide.

Usually bloggers have photos of their happenings, because most bloggers are narcissistic about themselves. Which would be like accusing a priest of piety tbh. :rolleyes: But anyway, blogs would be sources. What I'm getting at is having some third party website show these happenings or explain a situation is a source. Validity would just be based on past posts made by the blogger and such- nothing big.

At the end of the day, it isn't really a bit thing, unless you love your possession so much you want to blog about it. I suppose one would of blogged about it, but he didn't and the rest aren't exactly hardcose bloggers Trust me on that one.

Oh, and if the iPod was unable to unlock you can just connect it a computer via USB and it unlocks automatically. If something were wrong with the firmware, a simple restore would fix any firmware issue. All that could be found on the Apple site for troubleshooting iPods. I'm guessing visiting the website was never an option? "/

I suggested this too, because anything seems to unlock when connected to a PC, but it never did. I think it must of been a big hardware problem. How it happened I don't know "/ She visited that, it didn't help in the end. As I said, she just got a different MP3 Player and gave up.

No, lol. I'm ignoring it because I know how someone of your technological expertise (slim to none) would handle a situation that little help and just common sense user maintenance. "/ And someone without knowledge on how electronics work would know when an update is needed? Really? :rolleyes:

How is something someone else has said got to do with me, and I know average knowledge about Technology, it depends what it is about. While you probably know a few steps down from expert (I probably offended you, I was trying not to praise you too much, I am mean like that). And it is obvious really, if it stops or the player starts playing really badly, you'll know when to get an update, unless otherwise, you leave it till it does.

Again, let's go with the Windows Updates example. Let's say your computer was running perfectly- no troubles or issues. Windows Updates has updates for your computer, but your logic says 'The computer is working fine- why should I update?". So you don't update. A very important patch was included in that update which you never installed so you start experiencing issues when doing certain tasks. So your initial reaction would be to blame the product even though the fault lies in you not wanting to update because its 'time consuming'. So you've established that its the product's fault for not working properly. So the computer suddenly stop working and you re-install everything and update it this time. And everything could've been avoided by updating. But you'll probably never understand- but that's a good thing. You're the reason customer service exists and provide many individuals with jobs assisting people with your 'Don't fix it if it ain't broken' mindset. So, here's a collective 'thanks' from customer service around the world.

Considering a OS is an entirely different bucket of fish, of course you'll need an update. An OS has information travelling in and out of it far more than an MP3 player would ever dream to have. There are also lots more ways to harm a computer, than an MP3 player. Like as you said, deleting the files in System32.

(Oh, I won't be here for a couple of days due to a family emergency, so I'll reply when I come back to town.)

Eeek, hope everything is ok afterwards?

And btw, your writing style changed- not that its good or bad- just something I noticed. Looks like someone else's.

Has it? I've noticed something about your replies they each have gaps inbetween paragraphs, while before I had to make them myself when quoting.

[Mentor]

O.0 ooooook.... the posts are getting a little to long for comfort, especaly in respect to the fact 90% of there content is irrelivant to the central debate, and contains at least 6 sub arguments over each point.

The debate is "iPhone - Good idea?"

Its a very loose and poorly defined debate topic, possible directions include:
Will the branding work?
For: Apple have long ago proven if they created an Iturd, most the market is stupid enough to but it
Against: there viloateing trademarks, and will probably have to rename it anyway

Is the product going to break even
For: People will buy anything with an I infront of it, so alot of people will want em.
Against: At that price, most people wont be able to aford them, and those who can will most likly be smart enough to notice, its inferior to readly avaible products and at a much higher price, and they may as well just spend the money on somthing decent, like a PS3

The technolgy will revolutionis mobile phones
For: Multi point Touch screen interface, will change how people who have the phone use it.
Against: theres a reason touch screen interfaces have previolsy been avoided. Plus to be fair, even thats not new, although nothing on the market has it yet, products will still be on the market with it, before the iphone appears.
The rest of the technolgy already exists and is far exceeded by smart phones already on the market.

End of.

[Oni]

O.0 ooooook.... the posts are getting a little to long for comfort, especaly in respect to the fact 90% of there content is irrelivant to the central debate, and contains at least 6 sub arguments over each point.

The debate is "iPhone - Good idea?"

Its a very loose and poorly defined debate topic, possible directions include:
Will the branding work?
For: Apple have long ago proven if they created an Iturd, most the market is stupid enough to but it
Against: there viloateing trademarks, and will probably have to rename it anyway

Is the product going to break even
For: People will buy anything with an I infront of it, so alot of people will want em.
Against: At that price, most people wont be able to aford them, and those who can will most likly be smart enough to notice, its inferior to readly avaible products and at a much higher price, and they may as well just spend the money on somthing decent, like a PS3

The technolgy will revolutionis mobile phones
For: Multi point Touch screen interface, will change how people who have the phone use it.
Against: theres a reason touch screen interfaces have previolsy been avoided. Plus to be fair, even thats not new, although nothing on the market has it yet, products will still be on the market with it, before the iphone appears.
The rest of the technolgy already exists and is far exceeded by smart phones already on the market.

End of.

Oh im goin to go off on another tangent.

Why get a ps3 when there are wiis available?

[GommeInc]

http://uk.europe.creative.com/support/downloads/

Just to confirm that Creative do actually say you don't need to update your Zens if you are not experiencing any problems. It was in the most simpliest place to look, yet I never bothered to look at the obvious place

Do you need to update your drivers?
You should only update your drivers if you are experiencing issues with your product.

[Mentor]

Oh im goin to go off on another tangent.

Why get a ps3 when there are wiis available?

because the Ps3 is a fully next gen console, which will be entertaing gamers for years to come judging from sonys track record for gameing consoles, and wiis are little more than a gimic, which will loose popularity pretty fast, seeing as the gimic is really just a more expencive yet inferior technolgy to what you get with an eye toy "/

[HUGECOOL]

How am I meant to get a source for something that is practically everywhere? If you do Business Studies, go find a book and look up marketing. If you do Leisure and Tourism, go look up marketing in one of those books "/ Dove, a soap company, took about 8 women and let them use their product for free for about 2 weeks to see what happened and got them to report back. Danone, a yoghurt company surveyed a group of women with digestive discomfort and got them to report back "/

It's hardly something you need proof for, especially when it is a common trait in businesses "/ They don't see the point in asking hundreds or thoasands of people, they just ask a small group.
As stated in my first reply, just ask around your college/school/workplace and do a sort of mental survey. Unless Apple seem to like distributing faulty good to certain areas, and excellent goods to other, then the results are pretty accurate.

The proof would be that a report was made by the company in which they made it known that individuals were asked to try a product. "/ Which is what I'm asking for.

An MP3 player has been around for years, people went to them if they wanted to. They weren't talked about much "/ You simply plug in, and play. Creative brought out the Zen, which was just a bit bigger than a Mini, which came just before Apple made drive-based MP3 players known. Creative never seized it, because their mistake was thinking that people would slowly convert. Apple forcefully made itself known by advertising in most tech shops and intrigued audiences about it.

Apple, as you said, intercepted and made it known to people who didn't give one bit of notice to this. Clever, really.

Exactly. So in the end, it's just a simply argument of who had the best advertising plan. As far as being forceful about it goes, well, you can't force the willing. People wanted an good alternative to CD players and Apple met their needs, just the same as when Sony met the needs of consumers when they introduced portable CD players to replace portable cassette players.

That is irrelevant to the argument. Apple still are being anti-competitive with their iTunes so that if you have anything owned/created by Apple, you are pretty well ok. If you have anything else, you're stuffed. Apple have Safari, so they have nothing to moan about with IE. Even though IE is available for Mac users.

The case was resolved anyway, so Apple are just being petty really "/

The argument is relative, actually. Microsoft faced legal issues with IE because of the large dominance in computers, which previously didn't allow the uninstallation of Internet Explorer because Microsoft said it would 'cause the operating system to not work properly'. Because Windows already included a browser (IE), other browser makers were at a disadvantage because Internet Explorer would dominate their existance by simply already being included. And because the Windows platform was very widely used, it pretty much meant that any other popular browser would quickly lose popularity because the vast majority of users would already be using Internet Explorer by default.

So how comes you said Macs don't have an alterative "/ You made it sound as if Macs had Microsoft Works which you can make more advanced by getting MS Office.

I never said they didn't have an alternative. "/ I actually made it known to you that an alternative has always been there in Macs when you thought Apple just trashed AppleWorks altogether.

Considering I read about it and what I discussed was pretty much proved correct. It advanced into catagories I haven't read about nor felt the need to discuss.

In other words, you repeated what someone said, but couldn't back up your arguments with facts. Isn't that called gossip?

You can still be a "non-expert" and still know what you are discussing "/ Unless you feel you can self-proclaim it or have secretly taken a degree and become a master. So yeah, you can still learn and pretty much no everything without being an expert, unless it is self-proclaimed or there is proof you are an expert.

Anyone can read a few paragraphs on a subject and instantly become a non-expert in any given field of knowledge. But what I was pointing out in my argument was that it was incorrect of you to flaw my argument when the flaw lied in your response because I explicitly stated the person arguing with you was a layman, which you ignored and in turn faulted me. "/

That was a conclusional example to pretty much briefly describe one flaw, rather than a string of flaws which would conquer the idea of it being brief. The O/S is kinda what makes them different, you can edit or create your own, customised applications in a business and hardwire it into the system.

Seeing as these arguments are well over 3 pages long, the 'being brief' boat pretty much sailed a long time ago. Applications hardwired into a system? That's firmware. You can't really install firmware on a computer without first altering its motherboard design

But people prefer choice and customisation, rather than "this product being the only one you can get, you'll have to wait till they make something like that."

Which is why Apple is itself a choice. A person can choose not to customize. It could be whether they lack the knowledge of doing so or they just don't want to. Matter of fact is, not many people actually customize their systems after they've bought them to begin with. They may choose to buy a pre-built system customized to their likeness, but only because they're not going to replace anything from it until its time to replace it. Apple also allows system customization upon purchase or to buy a system with default hardware and capabilities, so choice and customization is also valid for Apple computers.

Ah but it isn't viewable to begin with... Windows hide them when you first look into the folder, you can ask to keep them hidden or have a look anyway at your own discression. If you foul up, it's your fault for going against what the system says when you first look at that folder. At least, that's what Window XP systems say "/

Not exactly. Directly, it can't be viewed initially. That is to say, a person cannot successfully go to the Windows folder without being prompted to unhide system files. However, that isn't the only way to get to a Windows folder. Take uploading pictures, for example. When you upload an image to a website, you are asked to look for your picture through a 'Browse.." button. Even if it's your first time going to the Windows folder via a 'Browse..' button, you will not be prompted to unhide system files. Instead they will be dispalyed to edit at your heart's content. Now, while that situation may seem to be far too complicated to be accomplished by an amateur user, it happens all the time because the user is unaware of the severity of their actions.

Considering there isn't restrictions on a PC like being trapped in a well, the example is a bit shakey. You deserved falling down the well for playing around it, but you still deserved to be saved.

With a PC, you should read the precautions and if you muck up, you can simply call Windows OR input the Windows Installation CD OR read the Windows Manual to see how you can restore it OR Go on another PC and look at the FAQ's on the Microsoft Website.

When you're down a well, you don't get these resources, other than some dirt.

The restrictions would be being infected by spyware and having your information read by some anonymous entity over the Internet. You said someone who doesn't follow instruction deserves to be have a spyware-ridden box, which I disagree with. No one deserves to have their information compromised because of flaws in an operating system the user has cannot understand. As far as a Windows Manual goes, the only one I've ever gotten was a 1-page introduction sheet for Windows XP. oO

But each system has a different way of handling the resources it has? If an XP PC has 1GB of RAM and the OS X has the same, the OS X will obviously work faster, because it is their nature to be quite fast machines, as far as I am aware at least "/ Again, to a user, this varies how they use it, produce from it anything and out-of-box experience. Unless they can get different specs that make them roughly the same, but that would be difficult and possibly impossible,

That's where xvsxp.com comes to play. They judge the operating system on how it uses its resources by testing how they perform. If an operating system does not manage its resources wisely, it makes the user experience less preferable because the user cannot fully take advantage of what the OS has to offer. Take Vista for example. It's a huge resource hog which will require the consumer to either upgrade their computer or buy a new computer altogether in order to run it. All for a new theme. Now while a nice looking GUI is great, it's not worth forking over hundreds of dollars just to have the capability of running it. OS X can do this and at the same time not use as many resources so the user can have both a nice GUI and be productive.

I thought XP machines can't handle more than 4GB? Or am I thinking of laptops? Either way, when the new machines are out with Vista pre-installed, I imagine inside each PC would be more than 4 slots. The way it has been told in the news and in newspapers kinda hints this.

4GB was the maximum because at the time when XP requirements were being made, memory came in a maximum size of 1GB per stick. Today, it can be bought at 2GB per stick so it doubled the supported memory. Motherboards come with a maximum of 4 memory slots, and that's talking about motherboards that can be customized to a user's likeness. My computer has 2 removable memory bays that support 8GB each, and 16GB in total.

Seems like it would, if there are big, bold lines seperating each contact. This means that the contact list wile just be longer. Again, pressing one button and finding someone with that initial is just a bit faster. Especially when, looking at the iPhone in action, you may scroll past by accident.

Since scrolling speed is user-controlled, you'd still have the person as the variable and how quickly they are able to find a contact in either scenario.

My original argument was that Apple are just trying to make themselves into a huge conglomerate "/ or a company that is trying to be incharge of everything. I think conglomerate maybe the wrong word.

Apple falls waay short of ever becoming a conglomerate, and even if they did, they'd be only making wasteful products which pretty much goes against the Apple mantra. ;p

When I meant Sony, I was talking about the MP3 Players they have their name on. I said Apple were said, which doesn't mean Apple said it themselves, but loads of people seem to think they are.

So if Apple didn't say it, why place the claim on them? oO

In arguments, you may aswell go through all the trivial matters to pick out all the weak spots

Trvial matters aren't weak spots because they're pointless to argue about, a.k.a time-waster.

As true as this is, people don't want to pay to use the internet (well, in the country at least) on their phones. That is, if the iPhone is coming to O2, Tescos, 3 and so on. You might have to use some other company which might not have the great features like O2 Pay and Go, which sometimes does free texts if you're an old, loyal customer. It's about as easy just going to a computer, where you can save the image or line of text with a few mere clicks of a mouse. Again, it depends if the iPhone version of Safari allows you to save images.

People already pay lots of money to use a watered-down version of the Internet on their phone and they're not bothered by it. Point being, if a consumer wants something they'll find a way to get it.

Not entirely different, no. You can hear that it doesn't so a certain thing and think "Oh, well, I don't want it then." Degrading is about as good as praising, even though praising is probably harder to do "/

No, that's not what I'm talking about... I'm saying that you're speaking negative about a product that you yourself don't use personally and faulting it even though said fault has never been presented to you other than by a third party.

You get the same with PCs, where someone can easily come along and fix it. You have to be insane to judge your information on one individual. You pick out the possibilities and if there are more obvious possibilities in one thing, you go with that. Although, sometimes this isn;t the case, and you have to imploy logic.

It's very different actually. Since Macs aren't as widespread as Windows PCs, consumers looking to purchase a Mac will look at reviews and issues with the product. Since the source I mentioned has basically all false information, the consumer would in turn acquire the false information and be less inclined to buying a Mac. And since Windows PCs are more widely available, it isn't very difficult to access one from practically anywhere and test the product yourself.

Lol that's quite a funny phrase.

Yep, and it's also true. It's not exactly easy explaining how a Mac works to people who have used Windows all their lives, so it's difficult trying to lead someone to new information if they have a one-track mind.

If you do Photography... Surely you would do it on a proper camera, preferrably D-SLR? Although you can get good camera phone photos, they're hardly as good quality or big enough even, to edit at home on a PC "/ And the editting programs are a good idea only for fun snaps or snaps that you want to quickly edit and show people as soon as possible, rather than big professional photos. Even so, it is better to take a photo as best it can be, without the need of editting it (I do photgraphy at college)

Many phones do come with photo editing software designed for the phone itself. It's horrible from a professional standpoint, but sufficient for someone just wanting to add contrast and such. Oh, and currently using a Canon EOS 300D, EF 50mm f1.8, EF-S 18-55mm f3.5-5.6, EF 24-85mm f3.5-4.5, and some softboxes. It's just a hobby, but it's freakin expensive so I'm holding back a little. Editing is mainly for color corrections or perfecting less than ideal exposures.

There is a huge possibility you can backtrack the ideas and reveal that the original concept was infact stolen from something, as you said, if it was patent.
Did they even have copyright back then? I doubt you could know if your idea was roughly the same or even tell if someone stole the idea and developed on it...

According to Wiki, patents have existed since 1474 in Italy.

Which is where this idea that Apple probably copied the idea from kindles. But as you said, the tech behind them could be very different and are just similar in the way they act.

Yes, it's not much what they do but how they get it done. Like a pencil compared to a pen. Different technologies but same purpose- writing. Or stabbing.

So we were arguing over the same thing and were really just agreeing?

Yeah, that seems to be happening a lot. oO (Whoops, happened again.)

Surely it is? Considering they've created it and have talked about it...

They don't list the full specs of the phone as they do with their other products. It's just a brief overview of technologies the phone has.

I was talking about that they did use them to zoom in, but using the fingers is not as accurate as it can be. A single finger input could be more accurate.

A single finger input would be more precise, not accurate.

I think I got confused with this. The Prada phone was being advertised along side the iPhone and Synpatics phone on that website I shown, which never did specify properly what it did, so I assumed it was the same as the two and had multi-touch.

The Prada phone was mostly being noted because of the uncanny similarities between it and the iPhone, not the technologies, which are differently implemented and constructed.

I know, amazing how much it has on it really "/ I wouldn't say a Cyber-Shot phone needs all them, considering the other Sony Ericsson phone which is the W200i has the same programs, just lacks Cyber-Shot. The Photo Editting on the phone is just one application afterall, and it has more of a purpose editting bad images, which phones without cyber-shot do need more than the k800i to make them look a bit better. Considering Apple has alot of programs, one which I hpe it has, which is photo editting, I kinda would of that it would have the ability to edit the photos, and the mistake you made about resizing also backed this idea. Not your fault really, shouldn't guess on someones mistakes

Aperture is Apple's pro photo editing software (which is what I use), but I don't think phones are able to run that let alone store it. Of course, there could be a port of that for the phone, but I doubt it'll be free, or useful for that matter since the iphones camera isn't really worth spending money for buying photo editing software to use with it. A free one would be nice. Guess we'll see in the following months.

There is some similarity still in there, although the Sony phones have it so it is any application/function, rather than different modes.

Similarity would be its purpose, but the tech is different.

Smart Playlists sound strange really "/ It kinda sound similary to what any MP3 player does and picks out what the rating is on the song (by you) and the genre. You can create playlists with other phones on the phone too, it would be a good idea if this came with the iPhone too, considering the iPod is one of the major functions "/

They're pretty neat if you don't want to manually pick a song, but don't want shuffling songs either. Kind of a hybrid-type playlist style. But basic playlists will be supported on the iPhone for sure. If you see iphone pictures, you'll see on the bottom of the iPod screen that there is a playlists option you can choose. Everything else will be generated when connecting the iPhone to your computer, I assume.

Still a bummer if you want to find someone you don't regularly call but need to. Quick-Dial is coming into mind now...

People will use the phone differently, there's no doubt. So I have say it's pretty pointless arguing if people will find this annoying or convenient. Maybe neither, and it'll just be a regular contacts list. oO

Suppose so, but with this Synaptics phone, you could just read the street name and wait till you get to your location to find out where you are. Wanting to know what an area looks like before hand is pretty strange really, only on the rare occasion you'll need it "/

And yes, I do know that the satellite option is, just an option. It is strange to think people will need it "/ Other than when you want to look at bird eye views of a building. I suppose you could investigate further by going on the wireless internet to get a view of the building from infront.

I don't personally use GPS and relly more on Google Maps when I need directions for something. GPS would've been great on the iPhone, especially because of Google Maps, so it's shame it won't be there initially. Satallite images are pretty clear here in the US, so they're really useful. For example, if someone couldn't recall which street was which on a basic graphical map but could tell where a location is at by its looking surrounding environment, it will be convenient for those people.

Most phones have some sort of warranty on, so it is very likely it will have one too. Just a bit of a bummer if you snap it and need to send it away and have no phone for a while. Again, it depends what you do with the iPod Video and the bag was what I voted as the safest place

Well, it isn't just the carrier's warranty on the iPhone. All products have a 1 year warranty that covers pretty much anything. Of course, after the year is over, you're *****ed if you need a repacement- which is where the carrier's warranty would take over.

The iPod Mini was in a thicker case and was thicker itself. It also felt nicer to hold, rather than the Nano which is a bit smaller and smooth and the video too wide.

Thats just the progression of things. As technology in them advanced, they get smaller and more compact. While some people find this best, others dislike it. Like comparing a Motorola DynaTAC 8000X to a RAZR. One felt more sturdier, but the tech isnt exactly impressive on the former. Not today anyway. ;p

At the end of the day, it isn't really a bit thing, unless you love your possession so much you want to blog about it. I suppose one would of blogged about it, but he didn't and the rest aren't exactly hardcose bloggers Trust me on that one.

http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en <- search other's blogs.

How is something someone else has said got to do with me, and I know average knowledge about Technology, it depends what it is about. While you probably know a few steps down from expert (I probably offended you, I was trying not to praise you too much, I am mean like that). And it is obvious really, if it stops or the player starts playing really badly, you'll know when to get an update, unless otherwise, you leave it till it does.

But I like my ego being inflated..
It's not really obvious to most people. If someone stops working, they'll call for help. The first reaction of someone whos product stops working is to contact customer support, so they can guide the customer to the appropriate direction depending on the issue with their product. While an update could've avoided that situation, they'll probably have to re-install everything and re-transfer all their information, which really isn't as fun as it sounds..

Considering a OS is an entirely different bucket of fish, of course you'll need an update. An OS has information travelling in and out of it far more than an MP3 player would ever dream to have. There are also lots more ways to harm a computer, than an MP3 player. Like as you said, deleting the files in System32.

lol Well, actually..
The Zune already offers wireless connectivity. Music is transfered by between any Zune user wirelessly. Of course, just as its easy to transfer music, other files can be transfers just as easily and pose a potential danger to the user if that file were to be malicious. Not much longer before we have WiFi-toting iPods and Zens and have to face these same dangers.

Eeek, hope everything is ok afterwards?

thanks It was fine.

Has it? I've noticed something about your replies they each have gaps inbetween paragraphs, while before I had to make them myself when quoting.

Strangeeeeeeeee.

I got rid of some pointless arguments that would otherwise just take up space, so the replies should be (should be...) shorter now. ;D

O.0 ooooook.... the posts are getting a little to long for comfort, especaly in respect to the fact 90% of there content is irrelivant to the central debate, and contains at least 6 sub arguments over each point.

The debate is "iPhone - Good idea?"

Its a very loose and poorly defined debate topic, possible directions include:
Will the branding work?
For: Apple have long ago proven if they created an Iturd, most the market is stupid enough to but it
Against: there viloateing trademarks, and will probably have to rename it anyway

Is the product going to break even
For: People will buy anything with an I infront of it, so alot of people will want em.
Against: At that price, most people wont be able to aford them, and those who can will most likly be smart enough to notice, its inferior to readly avaible products and at a much higher price, and they may as well just spend the money on somthing decent, like a PS3

The technolgy will revolutionis mobile phones
For: Multi point Touch screen interface, will change how people who have the phone use it.
Against: theres a reason touch screen interfaces have previolsy been avoided. Plus to be fair, even thats not new, although nothing on the market has it yet, products will still be on the market with it, before the iphone appears.
The rest of the technolgy already exists and is far exceeded by smart phones already on the market.

End of.

Your 'for' statements seem more like backhanded compliments. o_O
And the posts may be a little long, but that's not really an issue. Maybe if correct information was posted, arguments would be much more compact because no correcting would be needed. =/

because the Ps3 is a fully next gen console, which will be entertaing gamers for years to come judging from sonys track record for gameing consoles, and wiis are little more than a gimic, which will loose popularity pretty fast, seeing as the gimic is really just a more expencive yet inferior technolgy to what you get with an eye toy "/

Ps3 is gimmick-free! Watered-down motion sensing in the SIXAXIS has always been a major feature in the PS3 from the beginning. Bah! Who needs force feedback? And Blu Ray is the best game format ever, no matter what those pesky developers say!

[Mentor]

I got rid of some pointless arguments that would otherwise just take up space, so the replies should be (should be...) shorter now. ;D

Your 'for' statements seem more like backhanded compliments. o_O
And the posts may be a little long, but that's not really an issue. Maybe if correct information was posted, arguments would be much more compact because no correcting would be needed. =/

Its not really a problem of the information. The problems more with the fact you don't provide any then pretend you do. But then again, my life isnt so sad and boring that i can actually be bothered to read threw the topic and provide any more examples than the two posts i just quoted in this response...

Ps3 is gimmick-free! Watered-down motion sensing in the SIXAXIS has always been a major feature in the PS3 from the beginning.

o.0 it has. The wii argument is that the wii uses significantly superior mention sensing technology, not that the ps3 copyed it.. well the argument from the non-fanboys at least "/

Bah! Who needs force feedback?

Exsactly, Or did the fact the ps3 still has an actual controler and doent use motion senceing as its primary control mechnisms... and that dispute that the ps3 controller still won the EMMY for best controller "/

And Blu Ray is the best game format ever, no matter what those pesky developers say!

1) your argueing for the wii, not a hddvd player. The wii optical disk holds little more than a standard DVD. It cant even enter the same leaes as hddvd or blu-ray
2) the 12 cm wii optical drivers, run at about dvd*6 (7.93MB/sec). The ps3 has blu-ray*2 which runs at around (9 MB/s ) . Do the math.
3)Blu-ray can be used at *8 if you wana pay the money, and i like it alot more than i do a ps3, more as a storage medium, than anything else.
4)The developers of a single title, dont really hold much weight, when most game deveropers are backing blu-ray in the format war.
5) Wii specs are pretty much inferior in every possible aspect to ps3, which is a proper 7th gen console, arguments from them are doommed to fail. Although i suggest takeing your own advice and getting the right info.

6) This is completely irrelevant to the crapness of the iphone. You offered nill information, ether for nore against the claim.

Iphone offers nothing that wont already be on the market(cheeper) when it comes out: True (that includes the name iphone, even that was nicked)

[-Soph-]

I actually like it..
And yeah, I think its a good idea imo.