Monarchy or Republic

[-:Undertaker:-]

I personally believe a free-trade organisation is still required, for example, the united states wish to employ protectionist practices during this economic crisis, the same done here would devastate the whole of Europe and prolong a recession.

It is left-wing because the majority of European nations are left-wing, including this one. Agricultural restrictions are there to protect jobs, so is fishing. Without CAP subsidies, no farmers would be able to earn a living a wage, without fishing quotas, there would soon be no fish left in the sea.

Unelected is just not true, it is elected, the european parliament is a vital part of how the European Union works, and the other house in Brussels is filled with people sent from an elected government in this country. Though it would be nicer if the second house was more democratically appointed, and i believe a president elected by the people would be a good addition (this was actually a clause in the Lisbon Treaty).

Spending your way out of a recession will not work, the Depression was ended with the military build up to World War II. Our country is already in debt and we do not need more of it, because we will be paying it off for many years to come. This country has overbloated itself and needs to cut back on services and so on to avoid a IMF situation like in the 1970's.

Actually i'd contend that, French President Sarkozy and German Chancellor are both Conservatives and the President of the Czech Republic, Klaus, is also a Conservative. Sarkozy and Merkel may be pro-EU but the fact remains they are Conservative in home politics. Most countries always swap between right-wing and left-wing governments and having a EU which is a left-wing organisation is unacceptable to the people of Europe.

All of the socialist failures from this country went to the EU, Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson are two prime examples, and both are two of the most hated politicians in this country.

Agriculture and fishing limits are there to limit how much we can harvest and sell, we could easily provide enough crops in our country to feed ourselves yet we dont because the EU doesn't like it and wants us to buy other nations produce which pushes the price up. The cost of transport and so on for this food which could easily be produced in this country is just such a waste of money it is unbelievable. Just now, news has come in that French fishermen are blocking the ports in protest at EU fishing limits, which goes to show if the people doing the actual work don't agree with this EU red tape then why do we have it.

As for the democracy part, if the EU strives to be democratic why doesn't it use its already strong and powerful influence to force national governments to hold a referendum over the Lisbon Treaty - the answer is simple, because it knows it will lose and when people say no the EU does not like it one bit.

When the Irish voted we had quotes coming from EU officals such as "they voted wrong, they will vote until they get it right." - At the moment I cannot find any quotes but the fact that the treaty is still in motion is a sign that the EU will not accept a NO vote, after all it was agreed that without all members agreeing this treaty then it will not come into force, the only option the EU has now it so force Ireland to vote on it again.

Can I ask, do you support all EU nations having a referendum on whether or not we actually want to be in this new Union that is being formed, because everyone I know is against it totally.

I am a British citzen, not a European citzen; and never will be.

"We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed" - Sir Winston Churchill

The EU needs to learn the message, it is, in the words of Margaret Thatcher; No! No! No!

[alexxxxx]

Spending your way out of a recession will not work, the Depression was ended with the military build up to World War II. Our country is already in debt and we do not need more of it, because we will be paying it off for many years to come. This country has overbloated itself and needs to cut back on services and so on to avoid a IMF situation like in the 1970's.

Actually i'd contend that, French President Sarkozy and German Chancellor are both Conservatives and the President of the Czech Republic, Klaus, is also a Conservative. Sarkozy and Merkel may be pro-EU but the fact remains they are Conservative in home politics. Most countries always swap between right-wing and left-wing governments and having a EU which is a left-wing organisation is unacceptable to the people of Europe.

All of the socialist failures from this country went to the EU, Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson are two prime examples, and both are two of the most hated politicians in this country.

Agriculture and fishing limits are there to limit how much we can harvest and sell, we could easily provide enough crops in our country to feed ourselves yet we dont because the EU doesn't like it and wants us to buy other nations produce which pushes the price up. The cost of transport and so on for this food which could easily be produced in this country is just such a waste of money it is unbelievable. Just now, news has come in that French fishermen are blocking the ports in protest at EU fishing limits, which goes to show if the people doing the actual work don't agree with this EU red tape then why do we have it.

As for the democracy part, if the EU strives to be democratic why doesn't it use its already strong and powerful influence to force national governments to hold a referendum over the Lisbon Treaty - the answer is simple, because it knows it will lose and when people say no the EU does not like it one bit.

When the Irish voted we had quotes coming from EU officals such as "they voted wrong, they will vote until they get it right." - At the moment I cannot find any quotes but the fact that the treaty is still in motion is a sign that the EU will not accept a NO vote, after all it was agreed that without all members agreeing this treaty then it will not come into force, the only option the EU has now it so force Ireland to vote on it again.

Can I ask, do you support all EU nations having a referendum on whether or not we actually want to be in this new Union that is being formed, because everyone I know is against it totally.

I am a British citzen, not a European citzen; and never will be.

"We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed" - Sir Winston Churchill

The EU needs to learn the message, it is, in the words of Margaret Thatcher; No! No! No!

I'd like to start by saying thankyou for a good response, which is alot better than i've had in the past from some people here.

Spending to get out of the recession won't work, which i agree with, i personally am very worried about the level of borrowing that the government and the public have taken on. But also, at the same time, we have to remember that not everything to do with the world is to do with money, it can be about jobs and communities, which the conservatives seem to care little about. When the conservatives came to power, their economic policy was to lower inflation, and to do this they racked up interest rates, which consequently left MILLIONS AND MILLIONS unemployed. Shutting down coal mines and selling off other government-owned entities made money in the short term, but utterly destroyed people's livelihoods. The decision to let councils sell houses to tennants was a terrible one, meaning there is now a long waiting list for houses, even now with unemployment rising again.

They might be right-wing, but in relation to our parties, they are much more left than we are. Just because you are left or you are right doesn't mean you can't be more extreme.

The EU don't like the fact that the Irish voted no, and i think its disgraceful they are putting it to a vote again. It needs to be worked on AGAIN. The EU intervening to make all governments make them have a refferendum would overstep its line in home politics. It would be overstepping its mark from being a body built between nations to a more USA-style federal goverment.

I, personally, am actually against an EU referrendum (and some parts of the treaty), because it underminds our MPs job. We elect them, so that they can vote for us as they should go to the length to educate themselves and make correct decisions. If there is referrendum on this, should there then be a refferendum on other laws/bills, like drugs, crime and civil law? Also, misinformation by the media from newspapers like The Sun, Daily Mirror and The Express would mislead voters. My Conservative MP argued AGAINST a refferendum in parliament.

Also, Churchill: "A europe united would bring happiness and joy to all 400million inhabitants" (well he said something along those lines).

And too late, you are a European Citizen, ever since the Tories took us into it. Check your passport, it says 'European Union' on it, and translations into every European Language. You have the right to reside and vote in every european country and enjoy similiar rights.

I am however against the Euro because it's a weak currency with some weak economies with it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'd like to start by saying thankyou for a good response, which is alot better than i've had in the past from some people here.

Spending to get out of the recession won't work, which i agree with, i personally am very worried about the level of borrowing that the government and the public have taken on. But also, at the same time, we have to remember that not everything to do with the world is to do with money, it can be about jobs and communities, which the conservatives seem to care little about. When the conservatives came to power, their economic policy was to lower inflation, and to do this they racked up interest rates, which consequently left MILLIONS AND MILLIONS unemployed. Shutting down coal mines and selling off other government-owned entities made money in the short term, but utterly destroyed people's livelihoods. The decision to let councils sell houses to tennants was a terrible one, meaning there is now a long waiting list for houses, even now with unemployment rising again.

They might be right-wing, but in relation to our parties, they are much more left than we are. Just because you are left or you are right doesn't mean you can't be more extreme.

The EU don't like the fact that the Irish voted no, and i think its disgraceful they are putting it to a vote again. It needs to be worked on AGAIN. The EU intervening to make all governments make them have a refferendum would overstep its line in home politics. It would be overstepping its mark from being a body built between nations to a more USA-style federal goverment.

I, personally, am actually against an EU referrendum (and some parts of the treaty), because it underminds our MPs job. We elect them, so that they can vote for us as they should go to the length to educate themselves and make correct decisions. If there is referrendum on this, should there then be a refferendum on other laws/bills, like drugs, crime and civil law? Also, misinformation by the media from newspapers like The Sun, Daily Mirror and The Express would mislead voters. My Conservative MP argued AGAINST a refferendum in parliament.

Also, Churchill: "A europe united would bring happiness and joy to all 400million inhabitants" (well he said something along those lines).

And too late, you are a European Citizen, ever since the Tories took us into it. Check your passport, it says 'European Union' on it, and translations into every European Language. You have the right to reside and vote in every european country and enjoy similiar rights.

I am however against the Euro because it's a weak currency with some weak economies with it.

I'm sorry but the Conservatives fixed the economy which was in decline and we had to go cap-in-hand to the IMF. Anyone with any knowledge in the economy would know that the mines were a failing industry kept open only due to the Labour Union-controlled govrnment susbsidising them.

Yes unemployment did rise, but afterwards started to lower as the country grew wealthier thanks to the Thatcher governments reforms which were vital to this country. The mines could not possibly compete with the rising Asian economies and you would be throwing money away to attempt to compete with them.

No the EU would be hailed as a democratic body if it made national governments to hold referendums. I'm sorry but 'too much power over national governments' is a laughable attempt by a pro-EU supporter to use, the EU can overrule some of our courts decisions and can limit our agriculture and fishing, and you then claim they care about national sovereignty?

You and the EU are against a referendum because you know it will lose. Our MP's also have a job to represent the people, and i'm afraid signing away our sovereignty to a union which is more unpopular than popular is not representing us.

The free media are there to sell newspapers, and to sell they often represent what the people think that is why people buy them. Therefore it isn't biased at all, it is free speech. The issue over referendums, well i'm afraid a treaty which signs away sovereignty and basically influences the politics of europe are a issue which deserves a referendum, there is no argument against it.

As for Churchill, he means a united europe in the sense that we respect eachothers sovereignty but we are unified together against evils such as Nazism. I am 'offically' but I mean by my beliefs and in my heart, I will never support a European Union and consider myself British. The Tories did take us into it, and them same tories were the same idiots who brought down the greatest politician I believe this country has ever had, Margaret Thatcher.

I want a europe which is trade based only, not politically based. As for the euro, good on you, a central currency is a very dangerous thing to have.

[Jordy]

all about the EU mate - our economy would be alot worse if we didn't have the EU or common market, though i can understand why people don't like how some laws are being implemented europe-wide.

I'm very pro-eu, but i think it's not democratic enough. What I like about the conservatives is that they're pro-euro reform, but i have issues about other things. Our largest export/import partner is with the EU, if we were to leave, our goods could be put under tariffs and taxes, which means even more jobs lost.

We can enjoy the economic benefits of the EU quite easily like it was meant to be when we joined 'The common market'. Norway (And Iceland) isn't in the EU yet it's part of the European Economic Area (EEA), it allows the easy and free trade to continue with out the other restraints of the EU.

I do agree with Ireland holding a referendum I just find it so ironic that it's people chose not to be part of it, the EU is entirely responsible for what Ireland is today which is one of the highest countries in the world on the Human Development Index, they owe the EU yet they're ignorant enough to go against it but at the same time I'm glad some country did.

[alexxxxx]

I'm sorry but the Conservatives fixed the economy which was in decline and we had to go cap-in-hand to the IMF. Anyone with any knowledge in the economy would know that the mines were a failing industry kept open only due to the Labour Union-controlled govrnment susbsidising them.

Yes unemployment did rise, but afterwards started to lower as the country grew wealthier thanks to the Thatcher governments reforms which were vital to this country. The mines could not possibly compete with the rising Asian economies and you would be throwing money away to attempt to compete with them.

You have to think about the goals you are attempting to achieve when you build an economic policy. Labour's was employment and the conservatives, inflation. Unemployment rose rapidly and never recovered to the same level as before they took power. Also they were resposible for selling off alot of UK assets. I don't think we'll ever agree on this because I am a socialist and personally think that in some respects that the Thatcher era really screwed up Britain.

No the EU would be hailed as a democratic body if it made national governments to hold referendums. I'm sorry but 'too much power over national governments' is a laughable attempt by a pro-EU supporter to use, the EU can overrule some of our courts decisions and can limit our agriculture and fishing, and you then claim they care about national sovereignty?

Court decisions made in the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, more to do with the Council of Europe (a different organisation). I am a supporter of the EU, but I think it should respect ways that governments/countries' systems work and shouldn't intervene with national government affairs. This line is needed so the EU remains a structure between states and not above them. Once the EU is in a position to be able to directly rule from the top, without directives needing to be passed in government, we stop being a union and start being a nation - which is not what many people want at all (including myself)

You and the EU are against a referendum because you know it will lose. Our MP's also have a job to represent the people, and i'm afraid signing away our sovereignty to a union which is more unpopular than popular is not representing us.

The average electorate doesn't understand what the EU does and will not read the Treaty either. They are not, in a sense, qualified to make an informed decision. This is why MPs are voted in, to be a representative make-up of the nation to pass laws. THEIR JOB is to read, debate and vote on laws. If a referendum was put in place, serious questions would soon need to be asked about parliamentary reform. Did you know the Lisbon Treaty actually includes a clause detailing how a country can go about ceding from the EU?

The free media are there to sell newspapers, and to sell they often represent what the people think that is why people buy them. Therefore it isn't biased at all, it is free speech. The issue over referendums, well i'm afraid a treaty which signs away sovereignty and basically influences the politics of europe are a issue which deserves a referendum, there is no argument against it.

OK, a democracy requires an informed, interested electorate. If the Daily Mail or The Sun do not write and inform the public in a balanced way (the TV media however is required to do so), people become misinformed when coming to vote and do not have a clear view of what they are voting for. This was proved in the Irish vote where many voters didn't know what they were voting for. As you said, they are there to make money. They could possibly make more money from selling sensationalist twisted truths than facts.

As for Churchill, he means a united europe in the sense that we respect eachothers sovereignty but we are unified together against evils such as Nazism. I am 'offically' but I mean by my beliefs and in my heart, I will never support a European Union and consider myself British. The Tories did take us into it, and them same tories were the same idiots who brought down the greatest politician I believe this country has ever had, Margaret Thatcher.

I want a europe which is trade based only, not politically based. As for the euro, good on you, a central currency is a very dangerous thing to have.

In certain ways, being part of the EU, we keep some sovereignty. The world is becoming a place full of only superpowers, The USA, China, India, Brazil, Japan and the EU. These superpowers will continue to grow and we'll start to lose grip, we'll become a slave nation to either the EU or USA, doing exactly what they say. We might as well try to take in an active part of the EU rather than let our hold on the world slip away. It's not our fault we're not a superpower, we're just reaching saturation point. Don't blind yourself under images of World Wars and the Empire, because those days are gone. Let's not pretend we're larger than we are.

[GommeInc]

Getting rid of the monarchy would cause way too many problems. Our Royal Family is perhaps the most popular and heard of family in the world. Getting rid of them would make England less appealing (and the rest of the UK, though England has London, where people tend to go to stare at them).

I would like to think that the Monarchy is one of the things keeping Britain interesting, without it, this country would just be some boring old European country with terrible drivers and imbreeding.

[Fez]

I say just have a dictatorship.

[Jordy]

I say just have a dictatorship.

History would suggest otherwise.

[5,5]

Constitutional monarchies allow power to be spread out more, in Republics the power often falls upon the president who can pass laws without the consent of the rest of the government...

Constituional monarchy is better

Seems like none of you know what a presidential democracy is.
The president cannot just pass laws as they please. Because than they could change the whole consitution and become a dictatorship. To prevent this we have checks and balances. What this does is the 3 branches of the government (legislative, judicial, executive) have to all make sure that each of them isnt making too many decisions so that they all have equal power. If the president wants to pass a law, the law must be approved by the supreme court first.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You have to think about the goals you are attempting to achieve when you build an economic policy. Labour's was employment and the conservatives, inflation. Unemployment rose rapidly and never recovered to the same level as before they took power. Also they were resposible for selling off alot of UK assets. I don't think we'll ever agree on this because I am a socialist and personally think that in some respects that the Thatcher era really screwed up Britain.


Court decisions made in the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, more to do with the Council of Europe (a different organisation). I am a supporter of the EU, but I think it should respect ways that governments/countries' systems work and shouldn't intervene with national government affairs. This line is needed so the EU remains a structure between states and not above them. Once the EU is in a position to be able to directly rule from the top, without directives needing to be passed in government, we stop being a union and start being a nation - which is not what many people want at all (including myself)


The average electorate doesn't understand what the EU does and will not read the Treaty either. They are not, in a sense, qualified to make an informed decision. This is why MPs are voted in, to be a representative make-up of the nation to pass laws. THEIR JOB is to read, debate and vote on laws. If a referendum was put in place, serious questions would soon need to be asked about parliamentary reform. Did you know the Lisbon Treaty actually includes a clause detailing how a country can go about ceding from the EU?



OK, a democracy requires an informed, interested electorate. If the Daily Mail or The Sun do not write and inform the public in a balanced way (the TV media however is required to do so), people become misinformed when coming to vote and do not have a clear view of what they are voting for. This was proved in the Irish vote where many voters didn't know what they were voting for. As you said, they are there to make money. They could possibly make more money from selling sensationalist twisted truths than facts.



In certain ways, being part of the EU, we keep some sovereignty. The world is becoming a place full of only superpowers, The USA, China, India, Brazil, Japan and the EU. These superpowers will continue to grow and we'll start to lose grip, we'll become a slave nation to either the EU or USA, doing exactly what they say. We might as well try to take in an active part of the EU rather than let our hold on the world slip away. It's not our fault we're not a superpower, we're just reaching saturation point. Don't blind yourself under images of World Wars and the Empire, because those days are gone. Let's not pretend we're larger than we are.

Then you have to look at the vital economic reform she drove through, tough and harsh it was but it bloody worked. Assets like the mines and so forth were never assets, maybe many years ago under the Empire but not in a world where Asian countries can produce the same/more for less and can afford to sell for less. It was not right that people were paying higher and higher taxes just to keep these failing industries open, basic economics.

The EU is already above nations, once a power can order you to stop/do something, your sovereignty is lost. I'm afraid I don't see much of a difference between the EU and the USSR in basic terms, they do not represent the people and the people do not want them.

I'm sorry but claiming the public cannot make the correct choice is a failure of democracy, you may aswell call it dead on the doorstep if you feel that. On the case of MP's reading the treaty, did you know the Minister for Europe had not read the Lisbon Treaty? - If the Minister for Europe has not read the treaty then i'm afraid the argument is lost. To claim we do not understand it is absolute tripe, do every voter in a General Election read the manifesto of the party they vote for? - I think not. In that case you may aswell declare a dictatorship.

Also the treaty can say whatever it likes, because it knows full well that that clause will probably never be used and we don't get a say on it anyway, so what would it matter if it gives us permission to leave?. We the public of Europe want a say and the EU will not give us it because it believes it is always right and knows best.

Basically that is democracy, is the next step in a European superstate to have a equal ratio of EU-supporting newspapers and Non EU-supporting newspapers, but then again that wouldn't suprise me in the slightest. If more people wish to buy right-wing leaning newspapers that is because they are right-wing and do not prefer the EU over the United States our our own British sovereignty, there is no two way about it, if people do not buy pro-EU newspapers as much as anti-EU newspapers then people do not want the EU. If we can't have a vote due to the media, then the same should go for elections, in your point of view. I come back to the same point again, it is because it knows it will lose.

I'm afraid the argument of a pawn of the superpowers is rubbish, no nation can ever take our sovereignty; thanks to our trident defence system which thankfully makes us safe. The only pressing issue in the United Kingdom is energy reliance in the future, and that can easily be solved with a new nuclear power generation of power plants and not having to buy energy from europe which is making them richer and us poorer.

You talk as if the EU is our saviour, you yourself imply its ultimate goal is to become a nation, something the EU denies in public and you denied earlier on. Margaret Thatcher warned on the growing power in the EU and she was right, its ultimate goal is to become a superpower which looks like it is going to be formed without our consent.

That isn't democracy, that tramples on democracy.