Pros and cons of the EU? And what is your opinion of it?

[Catzsy]

I have to say that these days I find very little positive about the European Union as the trend is towards a 'United States of Europe'. I think the original idea of a European Free Trade Association has been lost and I do agree if the country was given a vote that it would be to resist them more.

[Moh]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.

The only problem is other counties take advantage of our country.

[-:Undertaker:-]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.

..so our ancestors fought for nothing in your eyes, a frankly disgusting attitude to democracy and certainly no respect for Europe regarding the two world wars we all fought to preserve democracy. Never [you] claim to have respect for Europe and those who died, because you'd far rather go on your holiday (which you would be able to anyway without the EU and at the exact same price, perhaps even cheaper) than have the self-right to rule. That is not respect, its pure and utter selfishness on your part.

Millions who perished across the world would kill to have the rights & democracy you and me enjoy, and many did kill for them.

[GommeInc]

Only pro I can think of is trade, but that was with the EEC or something, which became the EU. Another is the freedom to work and transfer from country to country in europe (or the EU). I disagree with chucking money at an unknown body who prefer to blow it on stupid schemes, and a governing body trying to run very different countries when those countries are smart enough to do it themselves.

[alexxxxx]

We could move to Europe before the European Union came into being, if anything it turns parts of Spain into 'mini-Englands' much to the resentment of the locals along with allowing Britain to open up to far too many immigrations from Eastern Europe (last government predicted 13,000 would come, turned into hundreds of thousands).

Too many immigrants? I'm not sure myself. There were gaps in the labour force beforehand which were plugged.

This is possible with seperate treaties between nations minus the cost of the European Union.

It's a lie to say it'll have no cost, PLUS it'd mean the need for internal borders to be set up in the EU again, not needed, expensive. The rights that we have now and the guarantee will almost certainly not be kept.

This would be possible via national parliamentary legislation and would not undermine British sovereignty.

this is where youre wrong again. would british laws be effective where connections are made?, or if needing to complain and prove rights in different countries will be completely different and not in the native language. common regulations make it easier for consumers.

Students can go abroad to numerous countries that are not in the European Union, a scheme like this would exist always whether or not it has 'the EU' or its horrendus flag printed above it.

Not all of these schemes are free and do not spread to the extent that eurasmus does.

Nothing national parliaments cannot do themselves, again undermining our sovereignty.

This is where you're wrong. It would be impossible for the UK to travel across borders to search out for evidence or proof without delays or be able to hand out a good enough punishment.

The EU often competes in trade wars against the United States as it has a long French history of wanting to rival the United States and the United Kingdom - again nothing we could not do in our own parliament regardless (and without the hefty cost).

At least there is LESS difference between the european states. UK firms only have to produce goods to conform to regulations to satisfy 27 countries' regulations rather than having to increase prices to produce goods for ever so slightly different products.

People go to numerous countries and dont seem to have that much of a problem, sinking low down the list here.

In Italy before this you had to get a translation of your british driving license. How ridiculous.

Against the wishes of national parliaments and at the cost of the taxpayer, again undermining British sovereignty.

To the cost and benefit to the taxpayer.

Where national government spends its money is up to national government, the money that goes into these schemes regardless is UK taxpayer money anyway just with a blue flag printed above it saying 'funded by the EU' when it was not - the British taxpayer has funded it not the EU.

Unless you're an idiot you'd realise that you're part of the EU and the money would come from the UK taxpayer. And the British government doesn't always get it right.

We have NATO and a range of organisations for this, more to the point the EU has got past this stage where its not 'lets discuss the issues' its 'do as I say' where the EU itself directs Europe, not the democratically elected governments of Europe.

Not everything is to do with war. Environmental policy for rivers, seas etc, regional economic issues, cross-border crime, power, energy, science are best done where the countries involved come together. Who is 'I' in the EU exactly? It's the comission and the council of ministers, both appointed and represented by the democratically elected national governments.

British safety standards in British measurement systems suit us perfectly fine thanks, and have done for many years.

and so have the european ones. and imperial measurements are stupid.

The EU is not needed for that and has mostly nothing to do with scientific research.

It helps co-ordinate science and provides funding.

alexxxxx is a self-confessed EU federalist who wants the European Union to replace the United Kingdom, the Kingdom of Spain and all the European nation states.

wrong wrong wrong. ive never said that nor want that.

[Jordy]

yes i do
i love europe, i think its great the way i dont have to bother about visas or changing money if i wish to go on holidays. I love the way you can just pack your bags and work in any other european country you wish.

That makes it totally worth sabotaging our democracy so our laws can be made in Brussels by unelected individuals, not to forget the billions it costs us every year.

When you travel around much of the world you don't actually need to apply for Visas if you're a British passport holder, certainly not places you'd go on holiday anyway. For example you can go to the USA, Dubai, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Brazil, Canada, Japan etc without a visa, and guess what, they're not in the EU.

I don't see why it's so great that the EU is the biggest economy in the world? It doesn't actually benefit us, what benefits us is living in the UK which contributes enormously to the EU being the biggest economy in the world. We were already easily one of the worlds largest economies before the EU and we still are today. There is a few things the EU is convenient for, some of which have been outlined in this thread, however these things are quite petty and can be done without being in the EU and aren't even worth what we have to give up to be in the EU. Switzerland and Norway aren't in the EU yet they seem to have a much higher GDP and seem to be doing much better than everyone else in the EU.

[GommeInc]

Wait, they plan to get rid of Common Law? Common Law has been in existence for many many many years, before any form of UK Government and Parliament formed. Common Law is incredibly powerful, allowing the Courts and the judges who actually work with the laws to see what does and doesn't work. It's why the UK law system was and has been just for many hundreds of years. If they get rid of it, I hope an internal EU war breaks out and blows Germany off the map, even though that would be cruel seeing as many Germans hate us as much as we hate them.

Besides, good luck if they get that far. People are becoming sick of the EU. I can see countries dropping out and going back to their once powerful currencies and governments. I think the UK should just pull out, it would save us so much money. Yes, EU money is spread out across member states, but the money to be apart of it could be better suited back home. If these poorer european nations have problems, they could seek some support through a trade system like what already existed, without taking them over.

[alexxxxx]

Wait, they plan to get rid of Common Law? Common Law has been in existence for many many many years, before any form of UK Government and Parliament formed. Common Law is incredibly powerful, allowing the Courts and the judges who actually work with the laws to see what does and doesn't work. It's why the UK law system was and has been just for many hundreds of years. If they get rid of it, I hope an internal EU war breaks out and blows Germany off the map, even though that would be cruel seeing as many Germans hate us as much as we hate them.

Besides, good luck if they get that far. People are becoming sick of the EU. I can see countries dropping out and going back to their once powerful currencies and governments. I think the UK should just pull out, it would save us so much money. Yes, EU money is spread out across member states, but the money to be apart of it could be better suited back home. If these poorer european nations have problems, they could seek some support through a trade system like what already existed, without taking them over.

of course they aren't planning to remove common law.

and germans dont hate us and i dont hate the germans.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Too many immigrants? I'm not sure myself. There were gaps in the labour force beforehand which were plugged.

Well you could always go to a school thats has a teacher who cannot teach because there are so many kids from so many differing countries that they cannot understand the language. I am all for immigration, but it must be the British government which has control of British borders.

It's a lie to say it'll have no cost, PLUS it'd mean the need for internal borders to be set up in the EU again, not needed, expensive. The rights that we have now and the guarantee will almost certainly not be kept.

Of course it will have a cost, everything has a cost. The important thing is that its a lower cost and its done on our terms and on whats best for the United Kingdom, not what is best for the French, Germans or Czechs.

this is where youre wrong again. would british laws be effective where connections are made?, or if needing to complain and prove rights in different countries will be completely different and not in the native language. common regulations make it easier for consumers.

Britain is a leading economy and developed many methods of regulations as it was the first industrialised country in the world. Common regulation does not require the United Kingdom to allow the EU supremacy over our courts and parliament.

Not all of these schemes are free and do not spread to the extent that eurasmus does.

Nor are EU schemes - we [the taxpayer] are paying for it.

This is where you're wrong. It would be impossible for the UK to travel across borders to search out for evidence or proof without delays or be able to hand out a good enough punishment.

When we travel we have to show our passports regardless, and so we should. Jordy has also pointed out and addressed the visa issue.

At least there is LESS difference between the european states. UK firms only have to produce goods to conform to regulations to satisfy 27 countries' regulations rather than having to increase prices to produce goods for ever so slightly different products.

That is not what business seems to think - the EU costs business £100/120 billion a year and most hate the endless regulations that stems out of it. One of them is the need for a slaughterhouse to hire a 'animal care officer' to oversee animal welfare in the moments before the animal is killed.. thousands and thousands of regulations come out every year making business uncompetitive - why do you think business is leaving Europe?

In Italy before this you had to get a translation of your british driving license. How ridiculous.

If you are in another country that speaks a differing language then I would expect that, or would the EU prefer we all spoke one language and became one people as I have said before with German, English and French all becoming dominent within the EU.

To the cost and benefit to the taxpayer.

Not to the benefit, and I havent got a problem with health deals with other nations provided they benefit us and provided we have a say over these deals rather than them being imposed upon us.

Unless you're an idiot you'd realise that you're part of the EU and the money would come from the UK taxpayer. And the British government doesn't always get it right.

Has the taxpayer asked or voted for the EU? no.
Is the EU accountable to the taxpayer? no.

The British government may not get it right no. I do not agree with the government on many counts, but i'd rather have an elected government getting it wrong than an unelected one getting it right (which the EU isnt very good at either). It is about choice and democracy and to hand that over is totally and utterly wrong.

Not everything is to do with war. Environmental policy for rivers, seas etc, regional economic issues, cross-border crime, power, energy, science are best done where the countries involved come together. Who is 'I' in the EU exactly? It's the comission and the council of ministers, both appointed and represented by the democratically elected national governments.

All something this parliament can do.

As for appointed, yes appointed and not elected therefore not democratic.

and so have the european ones. and imperial measurements are stupid.

Imperial measurements (like most things across Europe) were invented with use, they are a real measurement system. The metric system was developed by Naploean and his pencil pushers which is impractical. Stop forcing your euro-nationalism on the people of this country and let us have a say on our own destiny.

It helps co-ordinate science and provides funding.

Again.. national governments can do this and science co-ordinates itself through its own bodies, if the EU is involved then its just another example of 'creeping into something and touching because I can, because I have that power'

wrong wrong wrong. ive never said that nor want that.

Yes you do, you told me in a thread many months ago (even last year) that you wanted a federal Europe - perhaps you have now changed which is good news, so are you now opposed to a federal Europe?

of course they aren't planning to remove common law.

and germans dont hate us and i dont hate the germans.

Yes they do, EU law is supreme to UK courts and parliament.

A recent example today; http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-n...oop-on-britons

[alexxxxx]

Well you could always go to a school thats has a teacher who cannot teach because there are so many kids from so many differing countries that they cannot understand the language. I am all for immigration, but it must be the British government which has control of British borders.

I have no experience of this and i'm sure it's only in certain areas of the country.

Of course it will have a cost, everything has a cost. The important thing is that its a lower cost and its done on our terms and on whats best for the United Kingdom, not what is best for the French, Germans or Czechs.

Everyone will do it on their terms, there will be very little agreement and therefore it will hurt everyone. We should all compromise .

Britain is a leading economy and developed many methods of regulations as it was the first industrialised country in the world. Common regulation does not require the United Kingdom to allow the EU supremacy over our courts and parliament.

It will reduce costs for business.

Nor are EU schemes - we [the taxpayer] are paying for it.

Free at point of use obviously.

When we travel we have to show our passports regardless, and so we should. Jordy has also pointed out and addressed the visa issue.

This has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. I'm talking about our authorities having no power to search offices in berlin, warsaw etc.

That is not what business seems to think - the EU costs business £100/120 billion a year and most hate the endless regulations that stems out of it. One of them is the need for a slaughterhouse to hire a 'animal care officer' to oversee animal welfare in the moments before the animal is killed.. thousands and thousands of regulations come out every year making business uncompetitive - why do you think business is leaving Europe?

Regulation always puts costs on business because that's what it's there for. It's for correcting wrongs and for protecting workers and consumers. Any UK regulation would have comparable costs and if having to make goods or providing services to different sets of regulations will either hurt competition or increase costs to the consumer more than this.

If you are in another country that speaks a differing language then I would expect that, or would the EU prefer we all spoke one language and became one people as I have said before with German, English and French all becoming dominent within the EU.

This is a stupid reason. Just have a standard with numbers so when someone looks at it they know what names the family name, what the issue date, the restrictions on the driver and the like without costing the user more money.

Not to the benefit, and I havent got a problem with health deals with other nations provided they benefit us and provided we have a say over these deals rather than them being imposed upon us.

So you think no one has ever had to go to the hospital abroad. My mum has. My friends mum was constantly in a foreign hospital for almost the entirety of her holiday due to blood poisoning. No charge whatsoever. Why put people in a situation abroad where people can't afford to pay for care on the spot (insurance isn't instantaneous).

Has the taxpayer asked or voted for the EU? no.
Is the EU accountable to the taxpayer? no.

The British government may not get it right no. I do not agree with the government on many counts, but i'd rather have an elected government getting it wrong than an unelected one getting it right (which the EU isnt very good at either). It is about choice and democracy and to hand that over is totally and utterly wrong.

The EU is accountable through our national government. Every time you vote for any of the main 3 parties you are voting for the EU

.
All something this parliament can do.

As for appointed, yes appointed and not elected therefore not democratic.

What. With itself? It can work out cross-border strategies without involving consultation with anyone else?

Imperial measurements (like most things across Europe) were invented with use, they are a real measurement system. The metric system was developed by Naploean and his pencil pushers which is impractical. Stop forcing your euro-nationalism on the people of this country and let us have a say on our own destiny.

Maybe in the past yes. Everyone uses metric units. But i don't know what a quart is. I don't even know what a pound is. I don't know what a fluid oz is. Colloquial usage of distances and volume is alright but i'm sorry imperial is the stupidest thing ever. 1760 yards in a mile, 3 feet in a yard, 12 inches in a foot. SI units and metric units are the best. Inter-changable, international, easy to understand. 1 kg of water = 1 litre. It sounds to me you're against the usage of international standard units because it's a bit european.

Again.. national governments can do this and science co-ordinates itself through its own bodies, if the EU is involved then its just another example of 'creeping into something and touching because I can, because I have that power'

Why should national governments waste money on similar or identical projects taken up in other countries, where less money could be spent with co-operation, also utilising the best people from everywhere in europe.

Yes you do, you told me in a thread many months ago (even last year) that you wanted a federal Europe - perhaps you have now changed which is good news, so are you now opposed to a federal Europe?

A 'federal' europe, if you want to call it that, does not destroy the UK. I think criminal law should be almost all sorted out by national states but regulations and certain economic stratagies need to be driven by a larger body.

Yes they do, EU law is supreme to UK courts and parliament.

Well yes, in that respect. But in UK courts we have common law and that won't change.