FPTP or AV?

[Hecktix]

lol is that what they've said?.. bless them


Indeed, it's such a shame that people don't realise the benefits from the coalition The only reason they're handing them votes is because people are too brainwashed to realise it's for the greater good. If only those people would come out of the cotton-wool ball of a Labour government :rolleyes:

Good point on the Lib Dems though. I can't help but feel slightly sorry for Nick Clegg and the amount of bad press he's getting; but then again, I think I would have done the exact same thing as him. For the pay packet, obviously

The coalition isn't doing much good at all, it's making huge cuts to public sectors such as NHS, Police & Education who simply cannot afford it, but that debate is not for this thread. And I wouldn't have done the same as Nick Clegg, if I had worked hard enough to be elected the leader of my political party I would not stand for things that are against my party's values, completely tearing the party's reputation to shreds (not that it had much of a reputation).

[-:Undertaker:-]

AV has been found to be, sometimes, more disproportional than FPTP which in itself is a rather bad system which leaves out millions of votes in favour for a three-party monopoly. Now as for myself, i've been looking into this over the past year and there really isn't a choice between these two systems - both are more or less the same, hence why we have been denied proportional representation which the Liberal Democrats promised to bring in (although its rather clear that PR would only serve to harm the Liberal Democrats as they are a protest party that has formed thanks to the FPTP system).

So while I may change what I vote for (if I even vote at all), I may just spoil my ballot by asking where my promised EU referendum is - of which all main three parties promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

The majority of the Labour Party disagree with AV, it's just Miliband (basically) that supports it and his argument is it represents the people, which is him portaying his message, to be fair Matt, no matter what system is in place Labour & Conservative will always be the two main parties, I don't think Labour need to "cry for help in regaining power" as the coalition are basically handing votes to Labour day by day. It's the Lib Dems who want it more than any other party and let's face it, you could definitely say they are crying for power and would do anything for it.

Both of their [Labour and Conservative] membership are in freefall and have been for years, both are redundant and both recieve less and less votes at every election. While they may have the monopoly now, I wouldn't bet on them being around for much longer.

I'm basing this on membership figures by the way, the figures do not lie.

lol is that what they've said?.. bless them

Indeed, it's such a shame that people don't realise the benefits from the coalition The only reason they're handing them votes is because people are too brainwashed to realise it's for the greater good. If only those people would come out of the cotton-wool ball of a Labour government :rolleyes:

You mean like Conservative voters who continue to believe that the Tory Party is any different to the Labour Party?

The coalition isn't doing much good at all, it's making huge cuts to public sectors such as NHS, Police & Education who simply cannot afford it, but that debate is not for this thread. And I wouldn't have done the same as Nick Clegg, if I had worked hard enough to be elected the leader of my political party I would not stand for things that are against my party's values, completely tearing the party's reputation to shreds (not that it had much of a reputation).

Can you please stop repeating this concerning the 'cuts'? there are no cuts in government expenditure.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...is-rising.html

I keep taking yourself and others to task on this issue and I never recieve a reply - this government is doing exactly what you and others continue to want, increased government spending year on year of which we cannot afford.

[Mathew]

Let's be honest Dan, you can't deny the fact that the Tories are making more of an effort than our previous Government?

Couldn't agree with you more on the EU topic, may I add.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Let's be honest Dan, you can't deny the fact that the Tories are making more of an effort than our previous Government?

Couldn't agree with you more on the EU topic, may I add.

What are they doing thats any different to the previous government? (apart from sometimes differing rhetoric)

Again, you can see the figures concerning government spending in the link above.

[Hecktix]

I don't reply to you, Dan because I don't do talking to brick walls. The whole "the government are making no cuts" argument is ****, they may not be cutting the debt (but they are reducing the amount we are borrowing, which to be fair - is a start) but they are making cuts in the public sector which will damage this country. This topic is about the Electoral Reform referendum, but as usual you manage to take the topic elsewhere - something for which you are infamous on this forum.

In terms of proportional representation, I find that it's quite an idealistic system that would never work in practice.

[Mathew]

The news article has told me nothing about where the extra "£3 billion a week" is going. It's all projections for the future but no facts of where it's going and how it's any different to Labour's fiasco.

..and indeed, if there was no "cuts," then how do you explain the past year of constant moaning from Britain's public? Tuition fees, petrol, tax, VAT, pensions, schooling - all places which has recieved cuts or increased fees (all in an attempt to help the Government make more money). Cuts in the public sector is where the Tories must make a start, but no doubt they'll be voted off before any benefits are seen. So where's it all gone? Don't tell me that UKIP have the holy grail of an answer.. :rolleyes:

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't reply to you, Dan because I don't do talking to brick walls. The whole "the government are making no cuts" argument is ****, they may not be cutting the debt (but they are reducing the amount we are borrowing, which to be fair - is a start) but they are making cuts in the public sector which will damage this country. This topic is about the Electoral Reform referendum, but as usual you manage to take the topic elsewhere - something for which you are infamous on this forum.

In terms of proportional representation, I find that it's quite an idealistic system that would never work in practice.

I tell you what is simply maddening - responding to ridiculous posts about 'severe ConDem cuts' by providing figures to you which are then ignored while you continue to preach about the virtues of the Labour Party and their spending plans when the incumbent government is doing exactly what you want. Now be tribal all you want, but you and others are not getting away with it - I will continue to correct you with spending figures.

The news article has told me nothing about where the extra "£3 billion a week" is going. It's all projections for the future but no facts of where it's going and how it's any different to Labour's fiasco.

..and indeed, if there was no "cuts," then how do you explain the past year of constant moaning from Britain's public? Tuition fees, petrol, tax, VAT, pensions, schooling - all places which has recieved cuts or increased fees (all in an attempt to help the Government make more money). Cuts in the public sector is where the Tories must make a start, but no doubt they'll be voted off before any benefits are seen. So where's it all gone? Don't tell me that UKIP have the holy grail of an answer.. :rolleyes:

Increased fees? isn't that what we had anyway during the last government when bin services were cut to fortnightly services, local services were slashed back all while council tax doubled I believe it was in the period of around 10 or so years. The last government raised government spending to extreme levels which we why we now have this large debt to deal with, yet at the same time it still cut back things such as bin collections whilst making you pay for it. And why? to continue to feed the likes of Foreign aid, the EU bill, state quangos - all of which are still rising and are due to rise.

Now as for them figures, they are the governments own projections (not including the expensive PFI schemes Mr Brown left us behind) - not mine, not Mr Bookers - their own spending projections which state they are going to spend more than Labour ever spent whilst in office.

So where's it all gone? Don't tell me that UKIP have the holy grail of an answer..

Well the coalition increased the foreign aid budget by 37% so there's a start.

[Mathew]

Increased fees? isn't that what we had anyway during the last government when bin services were cut to fortnightly services, local services were slashed back all while council tax doubled I believe it was in the period of around 10 or so years. The last government raised government spending to extreme levels which we why we now have this large debt to deal with, yet at the same time it still cut back things such as bin collections whilst making you pay for it. And why? to continue to feed the likes of Foreign aid, the EU bill, state quangos - all of which are still rising and are due to rise.

Now as for them figures, they are the governments own projections (not including the expensive PFI schemes Mr Brown left us behind) - not mine, not Mr Bookers - their own spending projections which state they are going to spend more than Labour ever spent whilst in office.



Well the coalition increased the foreign aid budget by 37% so there's a start.

You appear to disagree with the increase in council tax and cuts in the "all important bin collections" (and indeed, you appear to disagree with tuition fees, VAT and the likes)... are you suggesting they should be reduced and no effort be made? Surely you'd be even worse off.

Don't get me started on Foreign Aid though, I think it's absolute crap how we dish out such large chunks of money to foreigners when the country is as it is. The Pakistan deal killed me. That's partly a reason why I disagree with charities too. I agree with you that we shouldn't be giving money through Foreign Aid and the EU, but you still can't deny the fact that the Tories are making cuts and managing to extract more money from the taxpayer than Labour ever did (which is obviously what is needed).

[GommeInc]

Don't get me started on Foreign Aid though, I think it's absolute crap how we dish out such large chunks of money to foreigners when the country is as it is. The Pakistan deal killed me. That's partly a reason why I disagree with charities too. I agree with you that we shouldn't be giving money through Foreign Aid and the EU, but you still can't deny the fact that the Tories are making cuts and managing to extract more money from the taxpayer than Labour ever did (which is obviously what is needed).

Charity is an odd topic. I find it weird how the Government give away aid when charity should be done voluntarily and at home, not by force and done through a bureaucracy. The British people are charitable enough as it is, we don't need the Government to enforce this with aid that goes to the wrong places, like Pakistan, Libya and a few others. The aid tends to go to other Governments anyway, rather than the desired areas.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You appear to disagree with the increase in council tax and cuts in the "all important bin collections" (and indeed, you appear to disagree with tuition fees, VAT and the likes)... are you suggesting they should be reduced and no effort be made? Surely you'd be even worse off.

Don't get me started on Foreign Aid though, I think it's absolute crap how we dish out such large chunks of money to foreigners when the country is as it is. The Pakistan deal killed me. That's partly a reason why I disagree with charities too. I agree with you that we shouldn't be giving money through Foreign Aid and the EU, but you still can't deny the fact that the Tories are making cuts and managing to extract more money from the taxpayer than Labour ever did (which is obviously what is needed).

Stage 1: I'm suggesting we cut public spending (which the coalition are not doing) which is the general thing you need to do in order to get the debt down. So anyone would agree there who has a grasp on numbers, that in order to get down X you need to actually cut back enough so that you have a surplus in the budget which would then go to pay the debt - this is not due to happen.

So thats firstly what we need to do.

Stage 2: The second part on what to do next is to decide what we need to cut to get back to this surplus so that we can pay our debts along with pay the debt interest at the same time. I propose we cut the following first (as would anyone else who has an ounce of common sense); our EU payments, foreign aid payments, state quangos, PFI schemes, the welfare state, layers of management within Whitehall.. and i'm sure we could find much more which would not affect needed frontline services.

Now i'm not saying that will pay the government debts off fully, but thats where you start in order to minimise the damage to the people on this country when cuts in schools, council services and so forth would need to be made - but as I point out above, the coalition aren't even past stage one yet. Ontop of this you also cut back in order to accomodate tax cuts which stimulate growth in the economy.

It is all very well debating what we should cut/what should not be cut - but whats the point of debating this when the 'cuts' are simply a sham?