Kim Jong-il dies

[-:Undertaker:-]

To be fair, Castro did a lot to improve Cuba.

He hasn't at all, thats just the usual myth peddled about Cuba just like the other myth about Cuba's wonderful healthcare service, which isn't so wonderful if you're not a member of the ruling party. If you really think Castro and the socialist regime has been good for Cuba, I suggest you read accounts from the Cuban dissidents who continue to fight this regime and support the Cuban people with what little money they have/manage to raise in the United States. The same can be said for the little fanboys and fangirls of Che Guevara. Indeed almost all of South America (apart from capitalist Chile) is still undeveloped because of the varying degrees of socialist rule it has endured for decades and continues to endure.

It can be said though (like so many regimes around the world) that he [Castro] has managed to hold power for so long because of U.S. interference which leads to 'blowback' (as it does in 99.9% of foreign policy examples).

[The Don]

He hasn't at all, thats just the usual myth peddled about Cuba just like the other myth about Cuba's wonderful healthcare service, which isn't so wonderful if you're not a member of the ruling party. If you really think Castro and the socialist regime has been good for Cuba, I suggest you read accounts from the Cuban dissidents who continue to fight this regime and support the Cuban people with what little money they have/manage to raise in the United States. The same can be said for the little fanboys and fangirls of Che Guevara.

It can be said though (like so many regimes around the world) that he [Castro] has managed to hold power for so long because of U.S. interference which leads to 'blowback' (as it does in 99.9% of foreign policy examples).

Cuba has free health care and free education, something many countries do not. Cuba is a communist country meaning everyone earns the same amount, just because this is different to the UK or the US as it’s not a capitalist country, doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. He developed the country and brought it into better conditions than it was before he was in power in the 1950's. He is hated because he ousted the American backed Cuban prime minister and got rid of American businesses there, this doesn't mean he deserves to die next year.

[J0SH]

****, does that mean no Hangover III?

R.I.P. Mr Chow I mean King Jong il

[-:Undertaker:-]

Cuba has free health care and free education, something many countries do not. Cuba is a communist country meaning everyone earns the same amount, just because this is different to the UK or the US as it’s not a capitalist country, doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.

Which, as i've just pointed out, isn't worthy of the title of 'healthcare' at all (see the link). As for the rest, I cannot believe I am actually seeing somebody here defending that awful regime. The people not only live in abject poverty due to the absence of a free market (meaning everyone is paid the same, as you point out and as I point out does-not-work) but they also are under the thumb of a repressive socialist regime which is led by an elite who do have good healthcare at the expense of the people, who do have the material goods the population are denied - who don't have to worry about where their next meal is going to come from, or whether their neighbour has reported them to the secret police. Some regimes do good whilst at the same time being disgustingly repressive (Chile under Pinochet), but as with Cuba and most socialist regimes the same cannot be said.

And just for the record, there's no such thing as 'free education' or 'free healthcare'.

He developed the country and brought it into better conditions than it was before he was in power in the 1950's.

He hasn't developed anything, Cuba until the collapse of the Soviet Union relied heavily upon Soviet aid and is now in an even worse position now that that aid is no longer forthcoming. Indeed, its one of the reasons why Raul Castro is introducing some market reforms to ease the pressure on the Cuban economy (or whats left of it).

He is hated because he ousted the American backed Cuban prime minister and got rid of American businesses there, this doesn't mean he deserves to die next year.

That is true among the warhawks in Washington (and I pointed that out), but myself and many others including the Cuban people hate him and his regime for what they stand for and what they have brought onto Cuba. As I said earlier, the likes of Castro are prime examples of why the U.S. should stay out of other nations business because it is often U.S. meddling which prolongs the life of these awful, selfish and bloody regimes.

[The Don]

Which, as I’ve just pointed out, isn't worthy of the title of 'healthcare' at all (see the link).

Which is one bit of evidence; it doesn't represent all healthcare in Cuba. Don't be so daft, go back 40,50,60 years and take a look at the health care back then, it would have been FAR worse than that of today, And compared with the health care of America, where unless you pay for it or are insured, you're more or less screwed… at least in that sense anyone in Cuba can be treated.

As for the rest, I cannot believe I am actually seeing somebody here defending that awful regime. The people not only live in abject poverty due to the absence of a free market (meaning everyone is paid the same, as you point out and as I point out does-not-work)

Compared with the harsh capitalist society where it's every man for himself. Capitalism doesn't benefit everyone, and I'm sure you're aware that if that were the case with free trade being allowed in Cuba, wealthy foreigners would move over there setting up businesses to exploit the Cuban people. At least with communism in Cuba everyone lives in the same conditions and aren’t taken advantage of, or would you prefer it if there was a clear divide of the people with the bottom half living in much worse conditions compared with those of today?

He hasn't developed anything

He took a nation that had a literacy rate of 2% and within 20 years had raised it to 98%. He implemented free health care and free education policies which can be compared with that of developed nations.

That is true among the warhawks in Washington (and I pointed that out), but myself and many others including the Cuban people hate him and his regime for what they stand for and what they have brought onto Cuba.

So you preferred the Batista regime, during which the population of Cuba had a literacy rate of 2%, no free health, poor education, far worse living conditions for the Cuban people, I’ve bolded that part to highlight that during the Batista regime, the only people benefiting from the free market were those wealthy enough to take advantage of the bottom percentage of the population, and I guarantee you that the living conditions for the poorest back then would have been far worse compared to the equal conditions of everyone today.

As I said earlier, the likes of Castro are prime examples of why the U.S. should stay out of other nations business.

Glad we agree on something

[-:Undertaker:-]

Which is one bit of evidence; it doesn't represent all healthcare in Cuba. Don't be so daft, go back 40,50,60 years and take a look at the health care back then, it would have been FAR worse than that of today, And compared with the health care of America, where unless you pay for it or are insured, you're more or less screwed… at least in that sense anyone in Cuba can be treated.

No you are right, the hospitals which members of the ruling party go to (the ones in which you choose to believe are on offer to the Cuban people at large) probably are rather nice. As for relative poverty, well thats right - but thats just like saying how people on North Korea now have access to more services than they did say, 100 years ago. That of course doesn't mean they are exactly 'better off' because they are still living in abject as compared with the rest of the world. And why is this? because of the socialist regime of Castro which has held Cuba back and impaired its development.

As for the healthcare of the United States you have a point, because the healthcare in the U.S. is basically government owned and government funded hence thats why it sucks. If you want a true capitalist healthcare system (which is among the best in the world), see Singapore before you give me badly thought out near-socialist models of healthcare systems to 'prove me wrong'.

Compared with the harsh capitalist society where it's every man for himself. Capitalism doesn't benefit everyone, and I'm sure you're aware that if that were the case with free trade being allowed in Cuba, wealthy foreigners would move over there setting up businesses to exploit the Cuban people. At least with communism in Cuba everyone lives in the same conditions and aren’t taken advantage of, or would you prefer it if there was a clear divide of the people with the bottom half living in much worse conditions compared with those of today?

Yeah thats right! they're all poor! now isn't that just fantastic? I bet the people of South Korea who are being taken 'advantage of' by the people who give them jobs and a high standard of living are just aching to move to North Korea, Cuba or any other socialist paradise. I simply can't believe that you believe this drivel, it wouldn't suprise me if you think the Berlin Wall was to 'keep the free marketers out' as the old Politburo of the Soviet Union used to say - when those of us living in the real world saw it for what it was, a prison in which to keep people in.

He took a nation that had a literacy rate of 2% and within 20 years had raised it to 98%. He implemented free health care and free education policies which can be compared with that of developed nations.

Yeah, if you believe Cuban government statistics!

So you preferred the Batista regime, during which the population of Cuba had a literacy rate of 2%, no free health, poor education, far worse living conditions for the Cuban people

Who said anything about the Batista regime? I am simply analysing the Cuban socialist regime and have concluded that its economy is in tatters (which it is) and many of the myths of this wonderful paradise are just that, myths. I am very clear with this, for a short summary which sums up my stance see the quote in my signature from economist Milton Friedman.

I’ve bolded that part to highlight that during the Batista regime, the only people benefiting from the free market were those wealthy enough to take advantage of the bottom percentage of the population, and I guarantee you that the living conditions for the poorest back then would have been far worse compared to the equal conditions of everyone today.

The Batista regime wasn't a free market regime, he was a socialist as were the parties which held him in office.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....ght_wing_.html

I don't defend Augusto Pinochet, the late dictator of Chile. He was a wicked man who tortured and murdered his opponents and - in a law-governed, constitutional democracy - chose illegal and undemocratic methods. Whatever good he may have done, which is in any case open to serious question, does not excuse these unforgiveable actions. So why won't the Left say the same simple thing about Pinochet's socialist twin, the Cuban torturer and mass murderer Fidel Castro?

As I bicycled past Hyde Park Corner the other day, I was upbraided by another cyclist who said I was unfair about Cuba and - when I called him a sucker for the regime - absurdly accused me of being a toady of the British 'regime'. (So far as I could work out before the lights changed, this was because, despite being as rude as I can be about our major political parties, critical of the Queen and Prince Charles, I support the institution of monarchy. I really didn't have the whole afternoon to spare to put him right about this).

He really couldn't grasp the simple point that, whatever he might believe about Castro's alleged (and dubious) achievements in health and education - the evidence for which comes mainly from Cuban official statistics which cannot be independently checked - Castro is a monster.

He has reversed the verdicts of courts when he didn't like them, so as to punish opponents. He imprisoned his old comrade Huber Matos, who just wanted to go home quietly. His regime began with show trials and mass shootings and continued with repression and censorship and intolerance, which have gone on ever since. For a long period he persecuted homosexuals. He has arranged to be succeeded by his brother, which the left normally would denounce as a sort of sideways hereditary monarchy. His prisons are a disgrace. Torture is used. Interestingly, Pinochet on occasion put in a good word for Castro, and Castro was - reasonably - perturbed when Pinochet was arrested, seeing this as a danger to himself.

The honest thing, whatever your politics, is to condemn them both. I do. What about you?

One thing we can say is that at least the Pinochet regime (one of the only right wing regimes ever to exist) is that economically it propelled Chile towards a bright future, nothing good can be said of the Castro regime.

Glad we agree on something

Why have you removed my description of the Castro regime (correctly) as an 'awful, selfish and bloody regime'? - which it is.

[The Don]

No you are right, the hospitals which members of the ruling party go to (the ones in which you choose to believe are on offer to the Cuban people at large) probably are rather nice. As for relative poverty, well thats right - but thats just like saying how people on North Korea now have access to more services than they did say, 100 years ago. That of course doesn't mean they are exactly 'better off' because they are still living in abject as compared with the rest of the world. And why is this? because of the socialist regime of Castro which has held Cuba back and impaired its development.

As for the healthcare of the United States you have a point, because the healthcare in the U.S. is basically government owned and government funded hence thats why it sucks. If you want a true capitalist healthcare system (which is among the best in the world), see Singapore before you give me badly thought out near-socialist models of healthcare systems to 'prove me wrong'.



Yeah thats right! they're all poor! now isn't that just fantastic? I bet the people of South Korea who are being taken 'advantage of' by the people who give them jobs and a high standard of living are just aching to move to North Korea, Cuba or any other socialist paradise. I simply can't believe that you believe this drivel, it wouldn't suprise me if you think the Berlin Wall was to 'keep the free marketers out' as the old Politburo of the Soviet Union used to say - when those of us living in the real world saw it for what it was, a prison in which to keep people in.



Yeah, if you believe Cuban government statistics!



Who said anything about the Batista regime? I am simply analysing the Cuban socialist regime and have concluded that its economy is in tatters (which it is) and many of the myths of this wonderful paradise are just that, myths. I am very clear with this, for a short summary which sums up my stance see the quote in my signature from economist Milton Friedman.



The Batista regime wasn't a free market regime, he was a socialist as were the parties which held him in office.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....ght_wing_.html



One thing we can say is that at least the Pinochet regime (one of the only right wing regimes ever to exist) is that economically it propelled Chile towards a bright future, nothing good can be said of the Castro regime.



Why have you removed my description of the Castro regime (correctly) as an 'awful, selfish and bloody regime'? - which it is.

I refuse to have a debate with you when you regard any official statistics as 'myths' yet you choose to lobby propaganda without any real evidence.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I refuse to have a debate with you when you regard any official statistics as 'myths' yet you choose to lobby propaganda without any real evidence.

And I refuse to accept that figures which come from the Cuban Communist regime hold any substance, as you should too and as any decent thinking person should.

[Caution]

How can someone so perfect die? Seriously though, I wonder if all the tears and stuff are genuine cause they're so programmed to believe that he is the best thing on the planet.

[GommeInc]

I swear some of them were laughing, the tears seemed far too over-acted. They've probably be taught to cry like that if and when death comes for him, they've had since 2008 to train.