Russian forces enter the Crimea

[The Don]

Thing are beginning to look even worse... Apparently Russia has brought in extra 6,000 troops to Ukraine and Putin has received permission from the Duma to use armed forces in Ukraine.

Edit: Beat me to it Dan. I'm starting to doubt whether the US/NATO/EU will stay out of this after reading about the Budapest Memorandum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...ns_and_Ukraine

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President Putin has also requested use of force in Crimea and it's gone to the Russian Duma upper house....

Maybe that's something President Obama could do in future (asking Congress to declare war) as the US constitution demands but which various Presidents - Clinton, Bush and Obama - have completely ignored making them unconstitutional wars.

It's come to something where Russia can be teaching America lessons.

Teach the US on what? How to completely ignore international treaties? Not sure why you're getting a hard on when Russia is completely in the wrong at this point. Is it because it's Anti-EU/US?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Teach the US on what? How to completely ignore international treaties? Not sure why you're getting a hard on when Russia is completely in the wrong at this point. Is it because it's Anti-EU/US?

Teach the US political class a lesson in following it's own laws. When declaring war in America, the constitution states that only the Congress can declare war, not the President. In recent years, US Presidents - including Obama - have got around this by illegally claiming that the wars in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan were not wars but something else. That is tyranny, and for all Putin's faults its a disgrace that the United States are being shown up in comparison to him. Who is the real war monger? Putin or Obama? At least Putin declares war legally.

As for the EU angle and Putin being wrong, why so? The European Union started this entire thing after it had a sulk following the Ukrainian governments decision to end talks on closer ties with the EU. Since then, EU officials have been stirring this pot of **** in the hope that they could topple the elected (yes, and corrupt) government in Ukraine and have it replaced by a pro-EU (and corrupt) government.

I'm glad that Putin is stepping in and telling the EU that he will not have governments toppled on his doorstep. All you have to do is simply imagine if the tables were turned and this was happening in reverse - there would be outrage.

[The Don]

Teach the US political class a lesson in following it's own laws. When declaring war in America, the constitution states that only the Congress can declare war, not the President. In recent years, US Presidents - including Obama - have got around this by illegally claiming that the wars in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan were not wars but something else. That is tyranny, and for all Putin's faults its a disgrace that the United States are being shown up in comparison to him. Who is the real war monger? Putin or Obama? At least Putin declares war legally.

As for the EU angle and Putin being wrong, why so? The European Union started this entire thing after it had a sulk following the Ukrainian governments decision to end talks on closer ties with the EU. Since then, EU officials have been stirring this pot of **** in the hope that they could topple the elected (yes, and corrupt) government in Ukraine and have it replaced by a pro-EU (and corrupt) government.

I'm glad that Putin is stepping in and telling the EU that he will not have governments toppled on his doorstep. All you have to do is simply imagine if the tables were turned and this was happening in reverse - there would be outrage.

The EU didn't start this, the Ukraine citizens did because they were unhappy with the government. To excuse such international wrong doings simply because "the US did it in the past" is absolutely terrible. Provide some links as to how the EU and not the Ukrainian citizens are responsible for this, and then justify how some other country doing something similar in the past excuses Russia for doing the same? As you said whenever someone brings up the Native American argument "We should be learning from the past, not repeating it" Yet here you are revelling in it simply because it's ~Controversial~ to the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EU didn't start this, the Ukraine citizens did because they were unhappy with the government.

Oh so the EU just sat on the sidelines and didn't in anyway egg on the situation. Righttttt. In almost every country, and especially these corrupt countries, the citizens are always unhappy with the government. Those in the West of Ukraine will aways be unhappy with a pro-Russian government. But that ain't the point. The point is, you have an elected Ukrainian government that has been brought down by the EU simply because it was upset that it didn't manage to bring Ukraine under it's sphere of influence.

So well done to Baroness Ashton and the EU Foreign Ministers. Except they've now prodded the Russian bear. Oops.

To excuse such international wrong doings simply because "the US did it in the past" is absolutely terrible. Provide some links as to how the EU and not the Ukrainian citizens are responsible for this, and then justify how some other country doing something similar in the past excuses Russia for doing the same? As you said whenever someone brings up the Native American argument "We should be learning from the past, not repeating it" Yet here you are revelling in it simply because it's ~Controversial~ to the EU.

I have stated ideally that I would like to see a referendum on the status of the East of Ukraine and the Crimea... however from what my impression appears to be, the US and EU have ruled this out stating that the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine (the EU calling for respect to sovereignty - HA!) must be respected. That to me rules out a referendum which leaves little else for Putin to do other than to liberate the East of Ukraine who clearly regard themselves as majority Russian and are refusing to accept the new pro-EU/US government in Kiev.

Those Russian flags across the East of Ukraine have been raised by the people there, not the Russian military.

[The Don]

Oh so the EU just sat on the sidelines and didn't in anyway egg on the situation. Righttttt. In almost every country, and especially these corrupt countries, the citizens are always unhappy with the government. Those in the West of Ukraine will aways be unhappy with a pro-Russian government. But that ain't the point. The point is, you have an elected Ukrainian government that has been brought down by the EU simply because it was upset that it didn't manage to bring Ukraine under it's sphere of influence.

You're simply unbelievable. HOW did the EU bring down the Ukraine Government (which ordered the killing of its own citizens). Why do you think this? You are making this stuff up as you go along to somehow justify the anti-eu sentiment.

So well done to Baroness Ashton and the EU Foreign Ministers. Except they've now prodded the Russian bear. Oops.

What the hell are you on about?

I have stated ideally that I would like to see a referendum on the status of the East of Ukraine and the Crimea... however from what my impression appears to be, the US and EU have ruled this out stating that the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine (the EU calling for respect to sovereignty - HA!) must be respected. That to me rules out a referendum which leaves little else for Putin to do other than to liberate the East of Ukraine who clearly regard themselves as majority Russian and are refusing to accept the new pro-EU/US government in Kiev.

I'm lost for words. A revolt by the citizens of a country does NOT justify the armed invasion by another. And no, the EU and US did not rule this out, you're inferring that to somehow justify your warped opinion.

Those Russian flags across the East of Ukraine have been raised by the people there, not the Russian military.

If 60% of the population in Scotland starting raising the Spanish flag does this suddenly mean it's ok for Spain to begin a military invasion up north? What about if a large portion of the Falklands started raising the Argentinian flag, would you be ok with Argentina sending troops over? For some reason I doubt it.

Absolutely stupid argument, don't bother replying about the EU somehow being responsible for the Ukrainians revolting, blame the old government in Ukraine for that. Unless of course you have some sort of evidence that the EU + US somehow caused all of this. You are so transparent, if this entire situation was reversed between the EU/US and Russia, I'm sure you'd be making dozens of new threads about how terrible the EU/US are.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're simply unbelievable. HOW did the EU bring down the Ukraine Government (which ordered the killing of its own citizens). Why do you think this? You are making this stuff up as you go along to somehow justify the anti-eu sentiment.

Both the EU and US have colluded together since the EU-Ukraine deal was scrapped to help stir the **** in Ukraine. I remember it a few months ago before Christmas, and you can read articles on this page related to it - https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&...vement+ukraine

They've stirred the ****, got their revolution in Western Ukraine....... except Eastern Ukraine isn't going along with it.

What the hell are you on about?

It's not hard to work out is it. The UK, US and rest of the EU have been pushing for months to drag Ukraine away from the Russian sphere of influence and bring it into the western sphere of influence. They've failed, Western Ukraine has erupted in support 'Euromaiden' and Eastern Ukraine has said no thanks, we'd rather remain closer to Russia. And now we have a split.

I'm lost for words. A revolt by the citizens of a country does NOT justify the armed invasion by another. And no, the EU and US did not rule this out, you're inferring that to somehow justify your warped opinion.

You are again ignoring the fact that half of the country do not want a revolution and a government in favour of closer EU ties, half of the country wants closer ties with Russia. What's so hard to understand about that? It's only hard to understand if you have a Cold War mentality and watch BBC News.

If 60% of the population in Scotland starting raising the Spanish flag does this suddenly mean it's ok for Spain to begin a military invasion up north? What about if a large portion of the Falklands started raising the Argentinian flag, would you be ok with Argentina sending troops over? For some reason I doubt it.

If Britain refused to enter negotiations regarding a referendum or some kind of vote, then yes.

Ukraine was never a real country to begin with, the split is inevitable just as it has been in most multicultural countries. Differing groups within a country with a different political culture do not like being dominated by their opposites - much in the same way many Britons resent having our laws made by German, French and Belgian pencil pushers in Brussels. Or how the Christians in South Sudan resented having their laws made by a central Islamic government. Or how half of majority-Shia Bahrain resents having the minority Sunni group make it's laws.

I support self-determination. If the west is refusing to give half of Ukraine a voice, then Russia has no choice.

Absolutely stupid argument, don't bother replying about the EU somehow being responsible for the Ukrainians revolting, blame the old government in Ukraine for that. Unless of course you have some sort of evidence that the EU + US somehow caused all of this. You are so transparent, if this entire situation was reversed between the EU/US and Russia, I'm sure you'd be making dozens of new threads about how terrible the EU/US are.

Not at all, my position is pretty clear. No meddling in foreign affairs, I believe in national sovereignty (which you do not). If the people of Eastern Ukraine wish to leave the Ukraine and join Russia and the west is refusing this, then Russia - as a direct neighbour - has a right to step into that area. I'd prefer a referendum as I said, but that seemingly isn't being allowed.

[The Don]

Both the EU and US have colluded together since the EU-Ukraine deal was scrapped to help stir the **** in Ukraine. I remember it a few months ago before Christmas, and you can read articles on this page related to it - https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&...vement+ukraine

They've stirred the ****, got their revolution in Western Ukraine....... except Eastern Ukraine isn't going along with it.



It's not hard to work out is it. The UK, US and rest of the EU have been pushing for months to drag Ukraine away from the Russian sphere of influence and bring it into the western sphere of influence. They've failed, Western Ukraine has erupted in support 'Euromaiden' and Eastern Ukraine has said no thanks, we'd rather remain closer to Russia. And now we have a split.



You are again ignoring the fact that half of the country do not want a revolution and a government in favour of closer EU ties, half of the country wants closer ties with Russia. What's so hard to understand about that? It's only hard to understand if you have a Cold War mentality and watch BBC News.



If Britain refused to enter negotiations regarding a referendum or some kind of vote, then yes.

Ukraine was never a real country to begin with, the split is inevitable just as it has been in most multicultural countries. Differing groups within a country with a different political culture do not like being dominated by their opposites - much in the same way many Britons resent having our laws made by German, French and Belgian pencil pushers in Brussels. Or how the Christians in South Sudan resented having their laws made by a central Islamic government. Or how half of majority-Shia Bahrain resents having the minority Sunni group make it's laws.

I support self-determination. If the west is refusing to give half of Ukraine a voice, then Russia has no choice.



Not at all, my position is pretty clear. No meddling in foreign affairs, I believe in national sovereignty (which you do not). If the people of Eastern Ukraine wish to leave the Ukraine and join Russia and the west is refusing this, then Russia - as a direct neighbour - has a right to step into that area. I'd prefer a referendum as I said, but that seemingly isn't being allowed.

Not gonna bother replying, not sure why you're saying they aren't being allowed a referendum since they haven't been given a chance. Completely baseless arguments and making up facts as you go along. You keep saying that somehow the EU/US are behind the Ukraine revolution yet the best evidence you can come up with for this is a link to google search results. Nice one.

[Okeanos]

I don't know why you hate the EU so much, Undertaker, but your bias is evident and it is making you look very silly. You are being unbelievably simplistic - this isn't Russians versus Ukrainians, Ukraine is so much more complicated than that. Not everyone in 'the East' wants to be closer with Russia by the way.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not gonna bother replying, not sure why you're saying they aren't being allowed a referendum since they haven't been given a chance.

Exactly. At the moment the new regime in Ukraine is implementing anti-Russian policies which is why the autonomous Crimea is pulling away and refusing to accept the new central government in Kiev. That's why Russian flags are going up across the Crimea and across the east of the Ukraine.

The west has stated that they want Ukraine to remain together as far as I can see, that would seem to rule out a referendum. Indeed, the new regime in Kiev appears to be ruling out any co-operation with the Crimean regional government on the matter: http://rt.com/news/ukraine-crimea-re...um-future-014/

Completely baseless arguments and making up facts as you go along. You keep saying that somehow the EU/US are behind the Ukraine revolution yet the best evidence you can come up with for this is a link to google search results. Nice one.

Even the EU has had to deny that it provoked the protests, despite the fact it continued to egg this 'revolution' on even as molotov cocktails were bring thrown in Kiev and government buildings being burnt to the ground.

https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-...ne-334141.html
http://www.wikileaksparty.org.au/mit...on-eus-behalf/
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/720188

It's being stirred up just as the US, UK, EU and west in general stirred up the protests in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia and Libya.

I don't know why you hate the EU so much, Undertaker, but your bias is evident and it is making you look very silly.

Have I not also criticised the United States?

The fact that this all began over an EU agreement that was turned down means I have to include the EU factor.

The protests themselves are called EUROMAIDEN. The clue is in the name.

You are being unbelievably simplistic - this isn't Russians versus Ukrainians, Ukraine is so much more complicated than that.

Yes, and that is what I am arguing. I said earlier that Ukraine cannot be considered a proper country.

Not everyone in 'the East' wants to be closer with Russia by the way.

Indeed. Did I claim they did?

[The Don]

No matter how you dress it up, this does not justify the armed invasion of a country.