Germany to push for EU Army *AFTER* British referendum

[FlyingJesus]

When you're telling me that the words

"streamline" the command centre and introduce Qualitied Majority Voting (QMV) by which it only needs a majority to take action. Next to follow will be merging the various national units to make it more "efficient". Then next we'll be told that - probably after a terrorist attack - for the good of security in Europe we need to "work together" more closely aka hand over control of the armed forces to the European Commission

are the same as

This Treaty organises the functioning of the Union and determines the areas of, delimitation of, and arrangements for exercising its competences.

I feel pretty safe assuming that you've never looked at the Treaty of Rome. No legal document about the aims of the EU states the specific **** that you're spouting, hence it all being SUPPOSITION on your part. It may happen, it may not, but don't pretend that it's anything other than a guess

[-:Undertaker:-]

@FlyingJesus; Sigh. Now you're just turning to personal attacks so I shall end our direct engagement from this point onwards.

For the record and for the readers, I have read the Treaty of Rome and I have read how the European courts interpret it. For the European Court of Justice (ECJ) and the EU as a whole, the Treaty of Rome is pretty much the founding legal document of the project and is strongly adhered to in all the court rulings as all EU treaties extend the scope of EU competences over national governments and EU law is supreme: hence the 'rachet effect' or 'salami slice' method. The clause of "ever closer union" is the principle on which the whole thing is driven hence why David Cameron's renegotiation aim of securing an opt-out from this was not successful: ever closer union is written into the treaties and the treaties remain in the practical sense politically and legally binding unless amended otherwise or if a signatory state withdraws from the legal auspices of the treaties (which is why I advocate withdrawal to remedy this 40 year old conundrum).

If you're signed up to a series of treaties which make clear over & over "ever closer union" is the aim, then you get ever closer union. I mean, duh.

[FlyingJesus]

No I'm not lol and I don't understand how you can't see that what you said in that post was SUPPOSITION. As in your SUPPOSED that those things will happen. This isn't about the words "ever closer union" it's about you claiming that the entirety of the EU wants to take military control of Britain through some very specific steps that no-one but you has ever mentioned. Inferences do not count when you're stating very deliberate actions as being in the pipeline when they're not, and moving the goalposts doesn't make you any more correct

[-:Undertaker:-]

The political intention has already been stated from the start for defence integration and the legal framework is already in place with the Treaty of Lisbon. Now they simply have to push forward with it and set up the agencies required to push for it. End result: a "defence union" aka single EU armed forces.

And that is what they are planning to do (assuming we stay in) following our referendum in June. It's really all incredibly simple to see & understand.

[FlyingJesus]

Cool story, still not what I was saying

you
made
shit
up

Admit that and we can all move on

[-:Undertaker:-]

What. What is being made up?

Deliberate actions are in the pipe line as they're stating they want an EU army, their treaties give legal scope for the creation of EU defence agencies and they're delaying pushing forward with it until after we have our referendum in the hope that once we've voted to Remain they can push onwards with a defence union and eventual single armed forces like they've pushed onwards with every single other part of integration for the last forty years without any consultation as to whether the British people want it or not. Currency, borders, economy, regulation, trade, social policy - you name it.

There's only two honest positions in this whole debate. You either want ever more powers to go to the EU or you want to withdraw. Choose this June.

[scottish]

That's the beginning. They're aiming for the creation of a European army through closer initial integration measures like you quoted.

My evidence?









All this is much the same as the way the single currency (Eurozone) was formed. It was not created immediately, but firstly by steps to peg each European currency to the next so that the next stage would be monetary union. This was known as the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...Rate_Mechanism



Now tell me Scott, when the German Chancellor/Defence Minister/Foreign Office/EU treaties & Commission President are all saying it is going to happen and I am simply repeating what they are saying is going to happen, it seems strange for you to post here as though I and the Financial Times are making it up.

Do you know something the rest of Europe does not yet know?

FTFY.

My quote was in regards to your post contradicting what you quoted.

You said It'll end our military while your quote said willing member states.

[FlyingJesus]

What. What is being made up?

The same things I've been telling you that you've made up all thread while you ignore me in preference of inventing an argument that never existed.

Once there's a joint command structure in place (under the command of whom I ask?) calls will follow to "streamline" the command centre and introduce Qualitied Majority Voting (QMV) by which it only needs a majority to take action. Next to follow will be merging the various national units to make it more "efficient". Then next we'll be told that - probably after a terrorist attack - for the good of security in Europe we need to "work together" more closely aka hand over control of the armed forces to the European Commission

This chain of events is supposition. It is guesswork. It is fiction. You made it up.

[abc]

And what did I say? @FlyingJesus;

BECAUSE WHAT I POSTED IS THE ACTUAL AIM?! Have you even read Article 42? All you keep doing is twisting every piece of fact into some delusional thing where you then make yourself believe a total different thing to what they are actually trying to achieve... IT IS IN WRITING.
I didn't see you running around screaming during the 37 EU security missions.

It's like me going "tomorrow I am going to the shop to do shopping". And you twisting that to "omg Saurav is going to the shop to rob it, ban all brown people from shops". That is how you are coming across and actually doing. Grow up. A debate is not conducted with made up things, it is done with facts and good reasoning.

If you think all countries will go "hey let's end our army and join a big EU army. Germany, France etc you will have NO army. Your army will belong to EU. If you get bombed tomorrow, you have to seek EUs permission to retaliate"... yeah you think their leaders will give up that power? You are so deluded.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Germany delays white paper calling for push towards European army including joint headquarters + shared military assets, until after June 23

— Andrew Neil (@afneil) May 3, 2016

I wonder why...

My quote was in regards to your post contradicting what you quoted.

You said It'll end our military while your quote said willing member states.

We are signatories to the treaties so unless another treaty came along we will be involved. In addition to that, given they are heading towards political union with merging the defence forces of Europe which Britain clearly cannot accept, do you now accept my argument that our departure within the next decade is an inevitable political fact and therefore it is better that we simply acknowledge this fact now on our own circumstances rather than at a later point?

Not building an EU Army, right guys? That's a real video and not a spoof I kid you not.

This chain of events is supposition. It is guesswork. It is fiction. You made it up.

So wait.

I am making up what the treaties, European Commission President, German Chancellor, German Defence Minister, German Foreign Minister and Italian Prime Minister are saying? Did I also write up the Five Presidents Report which states an acceleration (which would involve military) towards political union by 2025?

Nobody claims an EU Army will appear on June 24th. But it is already being built and they intend to speed up that process, as they state themselves.

If you think all countries will go "hey let's end our army and join a big EU army. Germany, France etc you will have NO army. Your army will belong to EU. If you get bombed tomorrow, you have to seek EUs permission to retaliate"... yeah you think their leaders will give up that power? You are so deluded.

Yes they will and will have to given the aim is the creation of a federal state. Just as many countries in the EU including ourselves have already given up control of the key tools of national independence such as their currency, have given up control of their courts, control of their own central banking, are planning to give up control of taxation, have given up control of their borders, are now being pressured to even given up control of asylum policy and much more.

If politicians will give up the basic right of a nation to control who comes in and who leaves the country, then they'll sure as hell give up control of the armed forces.

“the ultimate creation of a European federal state, with a single currency. All the basic instruments of national economic management (fiscal, monetary, incomes and regional policies) would ultimately be handed over to the central federal authorities. The Werner report suggests that this radical transformation of present Communities should be accomplished within a decade”. (PRO/FCO 30/789)

“that the aim of the Community was not merely harmonisation but the unification of policies in every field of the economic union, i.e. economic policy, social policy, commercial policy, tariff policy and fiscal policy. That this was not just pie in the sky needed to be made clear to the politicians”. (based on PRO/FO 371/150363, Bell p.22)

They say they are building a federal state and they are serious about it. Why do you continue to deny it? Of course the armed forces will be next, especially if they're aiming for political union by 2025 as the recent Five Presidents Report makes clear. The Lisbon Treaty has already laid the legal groundwork for it.