The difference between a Argument and a Debate

[Agesilaus]

I can see what you guys are saying, from a member's perspective when probably a lot of you were apart of the discussion and were enjoying it.

Generally, active threads get closed because the purpose of the thread is breaking the rules (in some cases, these are removed from the public view of the forum). Or because there are lots of arguing in a thread and lots of members are involved where most of them take it to the degree where they are breaking the rules while arguing. I don't see many alternative reasons why active threads should get closed.

I disagree with how a lot of people don't consider that these judgments could be mistakenly made or mistakenly encouraged because they were also encouraged to do so by another moderator. This may also happen due to inexperience and they've made a mistake with their judgment (the amount of new moderators justify this). If we find this happening, we generally give the moderator a reminder. And in some cases management remind us all about our guidelines, if it's happening constantly by different moderators and tell us what they think should happen. Moderators are also Humans (shock horror), we are not always perfect and we all make mistakes on occassions, as much as we try not to. Power-abuse is not making a mistake, mistakes are not intentional considering circumstances. Where as power-abuse is where the moderator is fully aware they are breaking the rules with the intension of doing so and I'm sure this does not happen frequently. If you think there is an issue here, it should be reported to Elkaa or J1MI.

I suppose it's a good idea to bring it up in the council for the management to look into. Of course, no real action can be taken unless the forum management decide to do something to encourage what the team should do as a hole. I'm all for improving the forum.

In response to several specific points raised:

Also, as it is your job, surely you're more likely to get through the barmy managements beliefs that any negativity shouldn't be allowed. Especially when you don't like the fact you're getting the blame. We wouldn't know, you do, so you should suggest that things are relaxed a little. Even though there are conflicting theories that you make up the rules yourself and the management tell you what to do

I agree to a certain extent. It does depend on the situation. If we ignore rule breaking too much, the management will start having a go at us for not enforcing the rules they set. We are monitored like that, so they can see whether we are doing our job. Sometimes as a moderator it is best to let it go, if the rule breaking is incredibly mild.

My criticism about Moderators actions should most definitely be directed at Moderators. Maybe not as a whole, but most of them do. I do not think it's bad you follow orders, however most Moderators take this orders and they enforce them in a rather harsh and silly way.

Some moderators may deal with situations more harsh than others and in some cases this is unfair. I think most of us try to deal with things in a way that isn't too harsh but also where the management are happy for us dealing with it in that way.

If you can't choose when or when not to enforce a rule, then you shouldn't be a moderator.

I disagree to a certain extent. It depends on the situation, some rules are pretty straight forward not to break and what not to do, we can't exactly choose what rules we can and cannot enforce ourselves. It's how we deal with the rule breaking where we can choose on a wider line. However, there are iffy situations that spring up and this is where judgment makes the best of you. For me, I tend to encourage discussion with the other smods with these. This way, it's a team decision and if one thinks it's too harsh for certain action to be taken, we can discuss if needed. If it needs leaving, it is left.

With respect Alex, it is the Moderator's job most of the time to close the threads and so they 'do take it into their own hands' because they close them. It is up to them to use their judgment on how to interpret the guidelines so the responsibilty firstly is theirs.

Indeed, every rule breaking situation is our responsibility when we are dealing with it, ensuring that we are taking the appropriate action for the situation.

Anyway, I created a new one and that was then closed because an existing topic is open... (when it was closed)

If the purpose of the topic isn't breaking the rules and an original gets closed due to arguing + rule breaking, then in my opinion, it is fine to create another thread. However, if the discussion of the thread leads the same direction the previous one did, then it may be closed again. If this happens once more, the moderator may instruct a member not to post about that same topic as it is just feeding arguments which is causing rule breaking to occur << my opinion on handling situations like that.

[nvrspk4]

The way I classify the difference between an argument and a debate for the purposes of forum rulebreaking is that an argument involves attacks on the person whereas a debate involves attacks (or comments) on the issue. That's the simple differentiation I make.

And if anyone is clever enough to realise, an argument is included in a debate :rolleyes:

I hate marmite because.... - Is one side of an argument
I love marmite because... - Is the other side.

Huge giant woffle about marmite = debate.

Arguments are in a debate. If you don't realise that, you probably shouldn't be doing English or Philosophy or infact anything at all english related in schools e.g. law.

Of course, that's the more literal form of argument. In that sense, everything is an argument. Saying "Hello", you make the argument that you're a nice person and you deserve a response. However nobody would get infracted for arguing for saying hello (although if that was all that was posted, they might get done for pointless posting ) I don't think the discussion involves the literary argument though.

I can only blame power-abusing from Moderators, and being rash in decisions, along with the above reasons. I could definitely get more than a few 'example threads' if it helps.

I think that's a little bit harsh to say. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone sees things from a different view. For example, there was a post from one person who replied to a thread about a black and proud group, replying "I don't see why you're proud to be black." I read it as "Being black is nothing to be proud of" in a derogatory way. However when I was PMd saying that he meant that being black didn't make any difference than being white and he didn't see why you would be proud just because you were a different race. That made more sense, I just didn't see it that way at first. Mistakes are possible.

I can see what you guys are saying, from a member's perspective when probably a lot of you were apart of the discussion and were enjoying it.

Generally, active threads get closed because the purpose of the thread is breaking the rules (in some cases, these are removed from the public view of the forum). Or because there are lots of arguing in a thread and lots of members are involved where most of them take it to the degree where they are breaking the rules while arguing. I don't see many alternative reasons why active threads should get closed.

I disagree with how a lot of people don't consider that these judgments could be mistakenly made or mistakenly encouraged because they were also encouraged to do so by another moderator. This may also happen due to inexperience and they've made a mistake with their judgment (the amount of new moderators justify this). If we find this happening, we generally give the moderator a reminder. And in some cases management remind us all about our guidelines, if it's happening constantly by different moderators and tell us what they think should happen. Moderators are also Humans (shock horror), we are not always perfect and we all make mistakes on occassions, as much as we try not to. Power-abuse is not making a mistake, mistakes are not intentional considering circumstances. Where as power-abuse is where the moderator is fully aware they are breaking the rules with the intension of doing so and I'm sure this does not happen frequently. If you think there is an issue here, it should be reported to Elkaa or J1MI.

I suppose it's a good idea to bring it up in the council for the management to look into. Of course, no real action can be taken unless the forum management decide to do something to encourage what the team should do as a hole. I'm all for improving the forum.

In response to several specific points raised:


I agree to a certain extent. It does depend on the situation. If we ignore rule breaking too much, the management will start having a go at us for not enforcing the rules they set. We are monitored like that, so they can see whether we are doing our job. Sometimes as a moderator it is best to let it go, if the rule breaking is incredibly mild.


Some moderators may deal with situations more harsh than others and in some cases this is unfair. I think most of us try to deal with things in a way that isn't too harsh but also where the management are happy for us dealing with it in that way.


I disagree to a certain extent. It depends on the situation, some rules are pretty straight forward not to break and what not to do, we can't exactly choose what rules we can and cannot enforce ourselves. It's how we deal with the rule breaking where we can choose on a wider line. However, there are iffy situations that spring up and this is where judgment makes the best of you. For me, I tend to encourage discussion with the other smods with these. This way, it's a team decision and if one thinks it's too harsh for certain action to be taken, we can discuss if needed. If it needs leaving, it is left.


Indeed, every rule breaking situation is our responsibility when we are dealing with it, ensuring that we are taking the appropriate action for the situation.


If the purpose of the topic isn't breaking the rules and an original gets closed due to arguing + rule breaking, then in my opinion, it is fine to create another thread. However, if the discussion of the thread leads the same direction the previous one did, then it may be closed again. If this happens once more, the moderator may instruct a member not to post about that same topic as it is just feeding arguments which is causing rule breaking to occur << my opinion on handling situations like that.

Damnit to hell Age, are you trying to steal my position as Mr. Long Posts????

FIRED M8!

[Agesilaus]

Damnit to hell Age, are you trying to steal my position as Mr. Long Posts????

I think you've just met another one. Your post was pretty long.

FIRED M8!

HRSH!

[FlyingJesus]

You know what they say about guys with long posts...

[Agesilaus]

You know what they say about guys with long posts...

We just like talking a lot, sometimes when we have an opinion. =]

[Cixso]

You know what they say about guys with long posts...

Yeah, small penis.

[Catzsy]

I can see what you guys are saying, from a member's perspective when probably a lot of you were apart of the discussion and were enjoying it.

Generally, active threads get closed because the purpose of the thread is breaking the rules (in some cases, these are removed from the public view of the forum). Or because there are lots of arguing in a thread and lots of members are involved where most of them take it to the degree where they are breaking the rules while arguing. I don't see many alternative reasons why active threads should get closed.

I disagree with how a lot of people don't consider that these judgments could be mistakenly made or mistakenly encouraged because they were also encouraged to do so by another moderator. This may also happen due to inexperience and they've made a mistake with their judgment (the amount of new moderators justify this). If we find this happening, we generally give the moderator a reminder. And in some cases management remind us all about our guidelines, if it's happening constantly by different moderators and tell us what they think should happen. Moderators are also Humans (shock horror), we are not always perfect and we all make mistakes on occassions, as much as we try not to. Power-abuse is not making a mistake, mistakes are not intentional considering circumstances. Where as power-abuse is where the moderator is fully aware they are breaking the rules with the intension of doing so and I'm sure this does not happen frequently. If you think there is an issue here, it should be reported to Elkaa or J1MI.

I suppose it's a good idea to bring it up in the council for the management to look into. Of course, no real action can be taken unless the forum management decide to do something to encourage what the team should do as a hole. I'm all for improving the forum.

In response to several specific points raised:


I agree to a certain extent. It does depend on the situation. If we ignore rule breaking too much, the management will start having a go at us for not enforcing the rules they set. We are monitored like that, so they can see whether we are doing our job. Sometimes as a moderator it is best to let it go, if the rule breaking is incredibly mild.


Some moderators may deal with situations more harsh than others and in some cases this is unfair. I think most of us try to deal with things in a way that isn't too harsh but also where the management are happy for us dealing with it in that way.


I disagree to a certain extent. It depends on the situation, some rules are pretty straight forward not to break and what not to do, we can't exactly choose what rules we can and cannot enforce ourselves. It's how we deal with the rule breaking where we can choose on a wider line. However, there are iffy situations that spring up and this is where judgment makes the best of you. For me, I tend to encourage discussion with the other smods with these. This way, it's a team decision and if one thinks it's too harsh for certain action to be taken, we can discuss if needed. If it needs leaving, it is left.


Indeed, every rule breaking situation is our responsibility when we are dealing with it, ensuring that we are taking the appropriate action for the situation.


If the purpose of the topic isn't breaking the rules and an original gets closed due to arguing + rule breaking, then in my opinion, it is fine to create another thread. However, if the discussion of the thread leads the same direction the previous one did, then it may be closed again. If this happens once more, the moderator may instruct a member not to post about that same topic as it is just feeding arguments which is causing rule breaking to occur << my opinion on handling situations like that.

This is a very good post and it boils down to the age old arguement which
indirectly & partially led to me leaving the staff because I was so incensed that my training programme idea was hijacked and I was not going to have a part in it which led me to become revolting (yes I know to some I am just revolting ) The Mod staff need a structured training programme. It's really not good for the forum or the mods to have 10/12 new entrants just thrust onto the forum with 'read the guide and if you need to know anything pm me'. There could be one in place but having read this thread I tend to think not. If there is now please accept my apologies.

There is a safety net in place for incorrect infractions because the Smods check each one but there doesn't seem to be any real 'quality control' about things like thread closures or even general attitudes of Mods.

We still need specific examples of wrongly closed threads though

[Orangeesh]

Those Habbo X threads are a great example.

The original one was closed, without any comment. We were having a nice discussion there. The MOD who closed it (who didn't leave their name...) seems to have some sort of phobia of active threads, as if they can't be bothered to moderate them.

Anyway, I created a new one and that was then closed because an existing topic is open... (when it was closed)

So as it is still news, can an admin with common sense please re-open the thread.

I don't see how you can say that considering I continued to moderate the thread over the 260 replies it had. The thread was closed for a very good reason, members were posting off-topic, being rude to members and being rude to the new HabboX's who also use this forum. As a mod we have to follow the mod guide and enforce the rules even if a couple of member's like yourself were having a good debate.

With the new thread being posted, personally I didn't have a problem with it as long as you kept it clean and stayed on-topic.

[Favourtism]

The way I classify the difference between an argument and a debate for the purposes of forum rulebreaking is that an argument involves attacks on the person whereas a debate involves attacks (or comments) on the issue. That's the simple differentiation I make.



Of course, that's the more literal form of argument. In that sense, everything is an argument. Saying "Hello", you make the argument that you're a nice person and you deserve a response. However nobody would get infracted for arguing for saying hello (although if that was all that was posted, they might get done for pointless posting ) I don't think the discussion involves the literary argument though.



I think that's a little bit harsh to say. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone sees things from a different view. For example, there was a post from one person who replied to a thread about a black and proud group, replying "I don't see why you're proud to be black." I read it as "Being black is nothing to be proud of" in a derogatory way. However when I was PMd saying that he meant that being black didn't make any difference than being white and he didn't see why you would be proud just because you were a different race. That made more sense, I just didn't see it that way at first. Mistakes are possible.



Damnit to hell Age, are you trying to steal my position as Mr. Long Posts????

FIRED M8!

Have you not seen Jays posts?

I think you've just met another one. Your post was pretty long.



HRSH!

LukeLongPostZilla


Right, usually a thread is closed for arguements if lots of rules are breing broke and there is rudeness towards users. it is onee thing to have a strong yet fine debate compared to a full attack on a group of people e.g. eXperts.

[Moh]

Some MODs are very silly. Yeah you basically said my entire point there. They close threads when they feel there's negative comments, despite they're not. It's been irritating me since I joined this forum. Nothing has changed either, and you think it would.

@Above, I agree with that. No-one wants insults flying around but its when a thread is not insulting, but in fact discussing valid points. Was that not what forum originated on? In the roman times, where they had the Senate? I thought a forum was a place to discuss points and, in most cases, let them be opposed by others. Moderators though, don't take that into account. At all.

Yea, you then end up getting RE threads because no one has been warned.