Who should win the next General Election? [ENDS 07/02/2010]

[-:Undertaker:-]

I am aware of the fact that for some people the EU and immigration are a big factor, so no it isn't the failure of the left to debate those issues. I know of these issues and it is my opinion that they aren't an issue, or at least as big as some people will have you believe. And yes, that is what i'm saying. The EU is a complicated issue and being the age that I am I mingle with alot of others of a similar age, and I can tell you that alot of people are not interested in learning about it. With that in mind, how can they possibly understand it? You vote in a government who will pick people to represent these issues and whom have the correct knowledge to deal with them. So of course they can vote for who they want to deal with the issues.

It is the failure of the left to listen and debate these issues, the public opinion on these issues is so clear it is unbelieveable, yet nothing is done because we are 'too stupid' to understand how great the EU and uncontrolled immigration is for us. On the European Union, my friend who doesn't know much at all about politics is doing law, the other day he mentioned the EU and said how he thinks its bad that a unelected organisation can create laws for this very country - thats coming from somebody who doesn't even know what left/right politics are. You only are using the excuse that 'not many people understand it' because in reality, a lot of people understand it and want out.

"We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts." - Harold MacMillan

Most people do not read political manifestos, does that mean we should deny giving people a say in elections aswell? - no, it does not.

[Ardemax]

No, I don't believe the EU is the biggest problem.

If we think about it, by staying with it for say, 2 years, we're not losing out on a lot and in that time we could be tackling the wars we're currently in, the terror threat and crime.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, I don't believe the EU is the biggest problem.

If we think about it, by staying with it for say, 2 years, we're not losing out on a lot and in that time we could be tackling the wars we're currently in, the terror threat and crime.

Crime - cannot tackle properly without leaving the European Union as EU legislation is entangled in that area now and is ever-growing.
Terrorism - cannot be tackled properly without leaving the European Union as our borders cannot be closed due to EU legislation.

In the space of two years, both the state and business would save what has been estimated to be hundreds of billions by the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. This is why its such an important issue, it is impossible to do anything properly without either leaving the European Union or demanding powers back instantly upon forming a government.

[Tash.]

It is the failure of the left to listen and debate these issues, the public opinion on these issues is so clear it is unbelieveable, yet nothing is done because we are 'too stupid' to understand how great the EU and uncontrolled immigration is for us. On the European Union, my friend who doesn't know much at all about politics is doing law, the other day he mentioned the EU and said how he thinks its bad that a unelected organisation can create laws for this very country - thats coming from somebody who doesn't even know what left/right politics are. You only are using the excuse that 'not many people understand it' because in reality, a lot of people understand it and want out.

"We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts." - Harold MacMillan

Most people do not read political manifestos, does that mean we should deny giving people a say in elections aswell? - no, it does not.

The example you just gave is not of a person who doesn't know what they are talking about. My own knowledge comes from the things I was taught at A-Level Law, so to claim him as an example is wrong. I'm talking about those who don't follow politics and don't do qualifications such as Law, Govt & Pol because those types of people don't understand the EU. I will use my own parents as an example. One is 55, the other 49 and I actually attempted a conversation with my mother the other day about the EU and her knowledge she admitted was limited. My mum is not a dumb person and she doesn't lack common sense yet she is confused by the issues the EU poses. My comment about people having a lack of knowledge was not lightly used as I include members of my own family within this bracket, it wasn't meant to offend the public it's just the truth. The fact that people don't read the manifestos of a political party before voting is largely irrelevant because no matter who you vote in they are going to consult experts on the issues anyway so nothing too bad is going to happen (unless of course you vote in a party who just puts everything to a referendum, then I can see a problem).

[Immenseman]

Dan, how can you even think that holding referendums left right and centre like UKIP propose is a good idea? You can say what you want but people won't think it through. How awful would it be if the death penalty was reimplemented? It'd be dreadful, at least I have trust in the tories and lib dems that any changes they make will be because they think it benefits the majority of people. I can not say that for UKIP who seem to want us to undo all the changes that makes this country what it is. Setting a good example to the rest of the world, diversity and uniting with other nations to make the world a better place.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The example you just gave is not of a person who doesn't know what they are talking about. My own knowledge comes from the things I was taught at A-Level Law, so to claim him as an example is wrong. I'm talking about those who don't follow politics and don't do qualifications such as Law, Govt & Pol because those types of people don't understand the EU. I will use my own parents as an example. One is 55, the other 49 and I actually attempted a conversation with my mother the other day about the EU and her knowledge she admitted was limited. My mum is not a dumb person and she doesn't lack common sense yet she is confused by the issues the EU poses. My comment about people having a lack of knowledge was not lightly used as I include members of my own family within this bracket, it wasn't meant to offend the public it's just the truth. The fact that people don't read the manifestos of a political party before voting is largely irrelevant because no matter who you vote in they are going to consult experts on the issues anyway so nothing too bad is going to happen (unless of course you vote in a party who just puts everything to a referendum, then I can see a problem).

You only oppose a referendum because the things you stand for, the majority of us do not stand for. You are now trying to dodge it, face it; you do not want the people of this country to have referendums over subjects such as the European Union and the death penalty because you know what the outcome would be. The whole point of democracy is that the people have a input into how the country is run, you are suggesting the opposite. You say there are problems with allowing the people to vote directly on issues, Switzerland runs referendums and is supposed to be considered one of the best countries in Europe by reputation.

Do not deny the right of people to decide their own future just because you disagree with what the majority opinion is, thats what all dictators have done in history. It is pure arrogance, 'you dont understand so you have no right to have an opinion/vote on this matter' - that is basically what you are saying. It is not hard to find out what the European Union is for, past PMs (even those who supported the European project) have stated that they knew and know fully well that a European Federal state is being created which means the countries of the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Kingdom of Spain and the rest of Europe will cease to exist and the European Union will become the nation we live in. MEPs openly say this from across Europe, infact the past Presidents of the Commission have also said this.

In short, people are not stupid. You may not be directly calling them stupid, but you sure are implying that.

Dan, how can you even think that holding referendums left right and centre like UKIP propose is a good idea? You can say what you want but people won't think it through. How awful would it be if the death penalty was reimplemented? It'd be dreadful, at least I have trust in the tories and lib dems that any changes they make will be because they think it benefits the majority of people. I can not say that for UKIP who seem to want us to undo all the changes that makes this country what it is. Setting a good example to the rest of the world, diversity and uniting with other nations to make the world a better place.

It would be awful in your opinion Jake, and thats what I am getting at and what UKIP are getting at. It is not you who should decide, it is not the unelected left who should decide - it is the people who should decide. As shown again by your post, you cannot seem to accept what people want. You continue to support a political elite who are out of touch and you also now appear to support a Federal Europe in the name of 'diversity' - well i'm sorry, the words diversity and uniting are mere subsitutes for big government and dictatoral policy.

Just accept that the people should decide how they live and how their future will stem, that afterall is why we fought two world wars and a cold war for that very right.

[leah]

Lib dems, think they're the most trustworthy and their policies are actually beneficial to people.

[Ardemax]

Crime - cannot tackle properly without leaving the European Union as EU legislation is entangled in that area now and is ever-growing.
Terrorism - cannot be tackled properly without leaving the European Union as our borders cannot be closed due to EU legislation.

In the space of two years, both the state and business would save what has been estimated to be hundreds of billions by the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. This is why its such an important issue, it is impossible to do anything properly without either leaving the European Union or demanding powers back instantly upon forming a government.

I'm sorry but not all terrorists are from abroad? A british terrorist attacked the capital in the past few years.
And yes we can tackle crime without leaving the EU.

[Tash.]

You only oppose a referendum because the things you stand for, the majority of us do not stand for. You are now trying to dodge it, face it; you do not want the people of this country to have referendums over subjects such as the European Union and the death penalty because you know what the outcome would be. The whole point of democracy is that the people have a input into how the country is run, you are suggesting the opposite. You say there are problems with allowing the people to vote directly on issues, Switzerland runs referendums and is supposed to be considered one of the best countries in Europe by reputation.

Do not deny the right of people to decide their own future just because you disagree with what the majority opinion is, thats what all dictators have done in history. It is pure arrogance, 'you dont understand so you have no right to have an opinion/vote on this matter' - that is basically what you are saying. It is not hard to find out what the European Union is for, past PMs (even those who supported the European project) have stated that they knew and know fully well that a European Federal state is being created which means the countries of the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Kingdom of Spain and the rest of Europe will cease to exist and the European Union will become the nation we live in. MEPs openly say this from across Europe, infact the past Presidents of the Commission have also said this.

In short, people are not stupid. You may not be directly calling them stupid, but you sure are implying that.

It would be awful in your opinion Jake, and thats what I am getting at and what UKIP are getting at. It is not you who should decide, it is not the unelected left who should decide - it is the people who should decide. As shown again by your post, you cannot seem to accept what people want. You continue to support a political elite who are out of touch and you also now appear to support a Federal Europe in the name of 'diversity' - well i'm sorry, the words diversity and uniting are mere subsitutes for big government and dictatoral policy.

Just accept that the people should decide how they live and how their future will stem, that afterall is why we fought two world wars and a cold war for that very right.

You're doing it again, you can't talk on behalf of the majority. No referendums have been held on these things and therefore you can't talk on behalf of the majority anymore than I can. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, I do not think that it is a good idea to have referendums on these issues because the public in general do not understand the depth of them. There i've said it. I don't know what the outcome would be, I have an idea of what it would be and I know that if I was right it'd be out of ignorance. Switzerland is not the UK, they have their own issues and they aren't in the same position as us because they are nowhere near as big of an economic power.

And finally, if I want to believe that the majority of people in the UK don't understand the EU I can. It is my opinion and I believe that they are ignorant of it and believe what they read in the media. Easily swayed and dangerous if there is a referendum.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm sorry but not all terrorists are from abroad? A british terrorist attacked the capital in the past few years.
And yes we can tackle crime without leaving the EU.

Of course they are not, thats exactly why we should stop extremists coming into this country who are breeding extremism in this country. On the last part, yes crime, justice & the courts are all a big part of the control the European Union has over this country. You cannot tackle anything seriously without first tackling the European Union and its legislation.

You're doing it again, you can't talk on behalf of the majority. No referendums have been held on these things and therefore you can't talk on behalf of the majority anymore than I can. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, I do not think that it is a good idea to have referendums on these issues because the public in general do not understand the depth of them. There i've said it. I don't know what the outcome would be, I have an idea of what it would be and I know that if I was right it'd be out of ignorance. Switzerland is not the UK, they have their own issues and they aren't in the same position as us because they are nowhere near as big of an economic power.

And finally, if I want to believe that the majority of people in the UK don't understand the EU I can. It is my opinion and I believe that they are ignorant of it and believe what they read in the media. Easily swayed and dangerous if there is a referendum.

Opinion polls have been held on these subjects and the latest PR election we had, UKIP came second in. Therefore when concerning the European Union and the death penalty I can speak on behalf of the majority, and its proven more so by your stubborness to accept that a referendum should be held on these issues. If a referendum were held on these issues in this country, my argument would hold no water and i'd accept that while I may not agree with what the outcome eventually was, its what people wanted. If I am so wrong, then why will the left not hold a referendum on the issue? - could is possibly be because of the fact public opinion is immensely against the European Union and for the death penalty?.. I wonder.

The economics of the United Kingdom and Switzerland add even more to the argument why the United Kingdom should leave the European Union;- a bigger economy can do far better without bloc trading, therefore the argument for the EU being nessacery for the economy is as usual, scare-mongering to win over support for signing over our soverignty. As usual blaming the media, the evil right-wing media. :rolleyes: The public, when they walk into a shop have a choice; they can either buy the Telegraph, the Daily Mail and other right-wing papers or they can buy the Guardian (a left wing paper) - the sale figures show it all. Again, in your logic elections should also now be banned because;

a) the majority of people do not read party manifestos.
b) the media is indoctrinating people to a certain cause.

Your logic, not mine. You may aswell declare democracy dead and done.