British government seeks permission to cut 5p off fuel prices

[-:Undertaker:-]

Because this current move contravenes a rule whereby you have to have a single rate of tax across your country, not differing from region to region! If you read the BBC Article you posted you'd know this!

And what is wrong with that? if a government decides for example to have a low tax zone in the poorest areas to get business going again, petrol should be included which is down to the democratically elected government of the day as much as I hate the voting system/media blackout against smaller parties.

It is not the business of the European Union, it is nothing but an excuse to rip people off.

FRANCE CAN LOWER ITS FUEL DUTY. IT JUST HAS TO LOWER ITS FUEL DUTY EVERYWHERE. French people go to Germany to shop. Italians go to Switzerland to shop. The Irish come to the UK to shop, the British go to France/Belgium to shop! :frust:

The British government has to apply for permission to lower tax rates, which will take a few months and make possibly no impact on prices as Matthew points out? it is ridiculous, tax harmonisation across the board is being brought in piece by piece and i've no doubt their plan for 'economic government' will make them the same across the board permanently.

But thats what you want isnt it?

Yeah but they won't say no because they've said yes before to a similar thing in Corsica. So unlikely.

It doesn't matter whether they'll say no or yes, its the principle of self-rule that is at stake.

No, it is not. You obviously have a very basic idea of how the EU works.

I know rather well how it works thanks and i've seen enough of this disasterous thing to want to get this country out of it, although you are not one to give lectures because I remember during Lisbon you were saying how Lisbon is nothing like the consitution while at the same time EU officals were contradicting both yourself and the Labour Party. It doesn't believe in democracy and is a stealth project, again read the EU Deception by Christopher Booker which is not a list of bad points about the EU, more a history and you'll see just how distasteful the egoism of Monnet and co is.

Almost everything I say about it and which you defend it by, it proves me right all the time. "The EU is democratic" you say and then next it comes out that they make the Irish vote again because they gave the wrong answer. It is such an easy argument which is only helped by the EU itself, why do you think they are so afraid of a debate surrounding a referendum on the EU? because they don't have a leg to stand on.

The Council of Ministers (and European Council) are where the fighting for your own country takes place and the bartering etc. In the Commission and the parliament everyone works in a more 'european' way.

Why should we have to fight for British interests (of which the EU is already heavily weighed against)? its time to leave, the British people want to leave and want their referendum that they were promised by all three parties.

Agriculture, energy, fishing, finance.. the list goes on and on - a complete disaster for this country.

[alexxxxx]

And what is wrong with that? if a government decides for example to have a low tax zone in the poorest areas to get business going again, petrol should be included which is down to the democratically elected government of the day as much as I hate the voting system/media blackout against smaller parties.

It is not the business of the European Union, it is nothing but an excuse to rip people off.

There is such a thing as low tax zone and the government has decided there to be some.

The British government has to apply for permission to lower tax rates, which will take a few months and make possibly no impact on prices as Matthew points out? it is ridiculous, tax harmonisation across the board is being brought in piece by piece and i've no doubt their plan for 'economic government' will make them the same across the board permanently.

But thats what you want isnt it?

The government should anticipate that the fuel price is likely to increase in that time. Have you got any actual evidence that this is the case.

It doesn't matter whether they'll say no or yes, its the principle of self-rule that is at stake.

The democratically elected government doesn't have plans to!

I know rather well how it works thanks and i've seen enough of this disasterous thing to want to get this country out of it, although you are not one to give lectures because I remember during Lisbon you were saying how Lisbon is nothing like the consitution while at the same time EU officals were contradicting both yourself and the Labour Party. It doesn't believe in democracy and is a stealth project, again read the EU Deception by Christopher Booker which is not a list of bad points about the EU, more a history and you'll see just how distasteful the egoism of Monnet and co is.

The way you speak about the EU, it seems like you haven't got a clue! No i never said 'its nothing like it' i said 'it isn't the same thing' - there are actually differences. They are not a carbon copy.

Almost everything I say about it and which you defend it by, it proves me right all the time. "The EU is democratic" you say and then next it comes out that they make the Irish vote again because they gave the wrong answer. It is such an easy argument which is only helped by the EU itself, why do you think they are so afraid of a debate surrounding a referendum on the EU? because they don't have a leg to stand on.

The EU made some legal guarantees on certain things important to ireland - and then they voted again. The EU is democratic. It is a fact.

Why should we have to fight for British interests (of which the EU is already heavily weighed against)? its time to leave, the British people want to leave and want their referendum that they were promised by all three parties.

Agriculture, energy, fishing, finance.. the list goes on and on - a complete disaster for this country.

I'd argue it'd be a lot lot worse if we pulled out - especially to the level that would tick all of UKIP's boxes.

[-:Undertaker:-]

There is such a thing as low tax zone and the government has decided there to be some.

Not with fuel if it wished to, oh wait - it'd need 'permission'.

Permission from who I ask? the unelected commission who are a political force with a political will, they are not like a monarchy where it does not exercise political will or have a political agenda. Therefore it should be subject to the electorate, if the electorate even wants it at all which polls suggest is not the case.

The government should anticipate that the fuel price is likely to increase in that time. Have you got any actual evidence that this is the case.

Look at fuel prices over past decade or so, thank you.

Now when you've done that, you'll understand why its almost certain fuel prices are not going to come down by any signifigant margin (if any).

The democratically elected government doesn't have plans to!

But if it wanted to it couldn't because it could be overruled by an unelected government.

The way you speak about the EU, it seems like you haven't got a clue! No i never said 'its nothing like it' i said 'it isn't the same thing' - there are actually differences. They are not a carbon copy.

Carbon copy i'm afraid, Merkel was it not who said it was 90-something% the same as the consitution, and as Farage points out - they went about implementing parts of the treaty even before it was ratified. You tried defending them (as you always do) and they themselves only proved my case right, kudos to them for being honest though.

The EU made some legal guarantees on certain things important to ireland - and then they voted again. The EU is democratic. It is a fact.

Those gurantees weren't worth anything as the treaty would have been changed, and yeah I guess it is - I mean its not elected or anything and makes people vote twice until it gets the right answer, but yeah its democratic in a warped way I guess. Its not elected, wasn't asked for, avoid's votes when it can (because it usually loses them) and when it cant it makes people vote again - really democratic that.

I'd argue it'd be a lot lot worse if we pulled out - especially to the level that would tick all of UKIP's boxes.

What would be worse? it doesn't matter whether you are right wing or left wing, its about preserving the nation state and making sure that decisions are made close to home as one size does not fit all, as proven with the disasterous project that is the euro. This project is about building a state and always has been hence why there are constant power grabs. The people are not being told the truth or given a say and that is wrong. If the people want an EU state then thats fine by me, aslong as they are given the choice and told the full truth.

As Tony Benn says, the power and sovereignty belongs to the people and is returned at the following election - it is not supposed to be handed away because it is not their sovereignty to hand away, it belongs to the people of which the people lend it to the politicians for a short period.

[Eoin247]

By the fact that, say in France they want to cut government back and want lower taxes and thus lower fuel duty. Now due to the tax harmonisation of the EU (and what you are arguing for, higher taxes across the board) that would mean that France wouldn't be able to do that even if its people wanted it because say, neighbouring Germany had to have high tax rates in order to fund big government.

That i'm afraid is not fair, not democratic and is not right. If the people of Germany regardless wanted to cross the border into France for cheaper fuel, why the hell should they not? its a free market is it not supposed to be?.

Ok we're going a bit off what i was saying. I'm most certainly not arguing for higher taxes across the board. For example, as you probably know we have a policy here in Ireland of low corporation tax. Now this is very important to our economy and it is this that will probably play the biggest part in finally getting us out of our problems. I believe that this tax shouldn't be raised no matter what other EU countries say.

Just because the ghastly Sinn Fein may make things up doesn't mean its a good idea, and anyway - why would you believe your political class especially now after the mess all the main parties got Ireland into including its humilating bailout from the IMF. If in doubt you simply vote against it. If you are told to jump into a hole in the floor of which you cannot see the bottom, you do not jump do you? the same for the Lisbon Treaty.

You Irish should value independence after fighting for it, next time you have the chance - do not sign it away again.

Well the fact that they had to make things up to convince people just goes to show that they didn't have that much material to argue for on the no side. I agree with you on the IMF deal, personally i think we should have just opted for default as this deal is going to leave us no other option anyway in the years to come. That said some EU officials have hinted that a renegotiation might be on the table, and our new government are vowing to renegotiate.

With regards to the last point, i really dislike when people compare the EU and accepting the Lisbon treaty to how Ireland was prior to independance. The fact is that they are very uncomparable. Now i know some people think that the EU is ramping up to eventualy become a european USA, or even something further than that. Whatever the future might hold, i obviously don't know. However right now, it really isn't comparable.

If the EU really had such a level of control over us, then they would have by now gotten us to increase our corporation tax. For years the EU has been trying to get Ireland to increase it's corporation tax, yet today there is still no change in the tax.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Ok we're going a bit off what i was saying. I'm most certainly not arguing for higher taxes across the board. For example, as you probably know we have a policy here in Ireland of low corporation tax. Now this is very important to our economy and it is this that will probably play the biggest part in finally getting us out of our problems. I believe that this tax shouldn't be raised no matter what other EU countries say.

But thats on the way, they have stated they now want economic government and its even worse for you lot in eurozone because now you have little choice but to go along with it. You state below that the EU is on its way to becoming a state, and yes it is - and it means that in time, more and more powers will be made via the EU rather than your national government.

Well the fact that they had to make things up to convince people just goes to show that they didn't have that much material to argue for on the no side. I agree with you on the IMF deal, personally i think we should have just opted for default as this deal is going to leave us no other option anyway in the years to come. That said some EU officials have hinted that a renegotiation might be on the table, and our new government are vowing to renegotiate.

As did the government and the EU itself, the usual "no to Lisbon would mean job losses" was perhaps the biggest focus of the yes campaign in an attempt to scare a recession hit public into voting for Lisbon, and you all fell for it.

With regards to the last point, i really dislike when people compare the EU and accepting the Lisbon treaty to how Ireland was prior to independance. The fact is that they are very uncomparable. Now i know some people think that the EU is ramping up to eventualy become a european USA, or even something further than that. Whatever the future might hold, i obviously don't know. However right now, it really isn't comparable.

Whats the difference, you are losing your independence. After the struggle to win back independence from the British, why would you now want to hand that hard won sovereignty away? the aim of the EU is exactly what you describe, except not even a federal model. It is based on the soviet model of centralism and infact if you look at the EU and the former SU you will see stark differences.

No the EU does not have gulags, but in the way it is setup it is very similar. A number of soviets themselves have said it themselves, from Gorbachev (last USSR President) himself to a former Soviet dissident who is a UKIP patron. And afterall does it really suprise us, Baroness Ashton herself is a former CND-Soviet treasurer and the head of the unelected commission, Jose Barroso is a 'former Maoist'.



"I have lived in your future and it didn't work."

If the EU really had such a level of control over us, then they would have by now gotten us to increase our corporation tax. For years the EU has been trying to get Ireland to increase it's corporation tax, yet today there is still no change in the tax.

They often mention something, allow it to die down and then shove it in via the backdoor. Look how far this has gone from a simple 'common market' - it is designed to be confusing, to be done be stealth.

[alexxxxx]

As Tony Benn says, the power and sovereignty belongs to the people and is returned at the following election - it is not supposed to be handed away because it is not their sovereignty to hand away, it belongs to the people of which the people lend it to the politicians for a short period.

The video you posted is frankly, funny. Most of what he's said there could be attributed to the USA as well. Anyway, what I was going to say was, in the same way that all of the sovereignty and power is returned to the people at an election - so is the choice of the people to be in the european union. Vote UKIP if you want to leave the EU. But they didn't even win a seat, did they?

[Eoin247]

But thats on the way, they have stated they now want economic government and its even worse for you lot in eurozone because now you have little choice but to go along with it. You state below that the EU is on its way to becoming a state, and yes it is - and it means that in time, more and more powers will be made via the EU rather than your national government..

If you mean the low corporation tax, then I can tell you that Ireland would sooner leave the EU than raise its corporation tax. If there's one thing that everybody in this country agrees on, it's this policy. Delegates to the EU have made it clear on numerous occasions that raising this tax is completely out of the question. Other leaders can moan all they want about it but it wont happen. There are people in the EU that realise this.

If it ever came to that level of control, then of course i'd be against it. However if it was to come to that it would be in the distant future. As it is now, it's fine. That said there are many things i don't agree with in the EU. I think it has gone off track a bit from what it was supposed to be, however that doesn't mean it can't get back on track.

As did the government and the EU itself, the usual "no to Lisbon would mean job losses" was perhaps the biggest focus of the yes campaign in an attempt to scare a recession hit public into voting for Lisbon, and you all fell for it.
.

To be fair the biggest focus of that campaign was that we would be left behind as pretty much all the other countries would accept it. An argument that made me look less fondly at the EU, however quite a legitimate argument. The reason job losses might have come into play would be because one of the main reasons there are so many multi national companies in Ireland, is because of our EU membership.

Whats the difference, you are losing your independence. After the struggle to win back independence from the British, why would you now want to hand that hard won sovereignty away? the aim of the EU is exactly what you describe, except not even a federal model. It is based on the soviet model of centralism and infact if you look at the EU and the former SU you will see stark differences.
.

As i said, if it ever came to that then i would be against it. However as it is, or in the near future, it has no where near that level of power. For the EU to work it has to have some powers. Otherwise it would be just as pointless as the league of nations ended up being. Just to add to that, you must remember that the main reason for such passionate struggles for independance was due to history. Had Cromwell not massacred so many innocents, had help been giving to victims of the famine or even if catholics weren't treated to badly then we'd probably still be a part of the UK today.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The video you posted is frankly, funny. Most of what he's said there could be attributed to the USA as well. Anyway, what I was going to say was, in the same way that all of the sovereignty and power is returned to the people at an election - so is the choice of the people to be in the european union. Vote UKIP if you want to leave the EU. But they didn't even win a seat, did they?

The difference is that the USA government is elected by the people, the European commission is not elected by the people yet openly describes itself as the government of Europe hence being more on a par with the Soviet Union than the United States.

Concerning the European Union and elections, that is a fair point - but remember that these parties promise referendums/power put back to Westminister everytime they stand for election and they all stand on a seemingly eurosceptic platform. Now this is partly the problem of tribal voting which its the job of parties such as UKIP to break (and it is breaking, 3% behind the Liberal Democrats now with Tory/Labour membership numbers in freefall) but the tribal voting system is held in place by FPTP and a media which is biased towards the main parties.

But yes people do need to wake up and read for themselves on the subject, Europe is the biggest issue facing this country and whether its UKIP or some future party that will get us out - we will leave as the aims of the European project will not be accepted by the British people or for that matter, the continental countries either.

If you mean the low corporation tax, then I can tell you that Ireland would sooner leave the EU than raise its corporation tax. If there's one thing that everybody in this country agrees on, it's this policy. Delegates to the EU have made it clear on numerous occasions that raising this tax is completely out of the question. Other leaders can moan all they want about it but it wont happen. There are people in the EU that realise this.

I wish you well on that, but be watchful and do not trust your political class because Europe is very clever in the way in which it works (see The Great Deception, an excellent book to see how the project works). Only today was it announced that another tax is on its way to the financial services district which has sent alarm bells ringing in the City of London - now posing yet another threat to the status of the City as a world financial center.

If it ever came to that level of control, then of course i'd be against it. However if it was to come to that it would be in the distant future. As it is now, it's fine. That said there are many things i don't agree with in the EU. I think it has gone off track a bit from what it was supposed to be, however that doesn't mean it can't get back on track.

It was always intended to be a project by stealth to create a European superstate, it remains just that. There is no longer a middle ground "In Europe but not run by Europe" - look how far it has already gone, you have dismantled your own monetary system and placed it in the hands of a power on the continent and now they are openly talking about economic government in order to keep the monetary system together.

Where is this monolith supposed to stop? we need to face the facts, its a runaway train - it is not going to stop.

To be fair the biggest focus of that campaign was that we would be left behind as pretty much all the other countries would accept it. An argument that made me look less fondly at the EU, however quite a legitimate argument. The reason job losses might have come into play would be because one of the main reasons there are so many multi national companies in Ireland, is because of our EU membership.

EU membership has nothing to do with multi-national companies being placed in your country, the United States is not in the European Union yet the U.S. companies operate across the world and intensely in Europe itself. The EU itself is a barrier to free trade, as shown by its ridiculous and costly trade wars with the United States.

As i said, if it ever came to that then i would be against it. However as it is, or in the near future, it has no where near that level of power. For the EU to work it has to have some powers. Otherwise it would be just as pointless as the league of nations ended up being. Just to add to that, you must remember that the main reason for such passionate struggles for independance was due to history. Had Cromwell not massacred so many innocents, had help been giving to victims of the famine or even if catholics weren't treated to badly then we'd probably still be a part of the UK today.

If the EU is to 'work', what is the point of it we must ask.

Why does an EU need to work? yes lets sit down and talk in a inter-governmental manner, but not supranationally.

[alexxxxx]

The difference is that the USA government is elected by the people, the European commission is not elected by the people yet openly describes itself as the government of Europe hence being more on a par with the Soviet Union than the United States.

Concerning the European Union and elections, that is a fair point - but remember that these parties promise referendums/power put back to Westminister everytime they stand for election and they all stand on a seemingly eurosceptic platform. Now this is partly the problem of tribal voting which its the job of parties such as UKIP to break (and it is breaking, 3% behind the Liberal Democrats now with Tory/Labour membership numbers in freefall) but the tribal voting system is held in place by FPTP and a media which is biased towards the main parties.

to your first post - the European Commission does not just rule by decree, it holds the civil service and is pretty much instructed by the council to draft laws which are then looked at by the council of ministers (MPs of the respective governments of the EU) and the MEPs. The council also are the civil service of the EU too. You don't elect your civil service. And this is on top of the Commission being appointed by the Prime Ministers/Presidents of each country and passing a vote of confidence in the Parliament. I think it is accountable.

The USA doesn't elect its Supreme Court which essentially says whether laws are legal or not (and the judges are appointed, not voted in).

[Eoin247]

The difference is that the USA government is elected by the people, the European commission is not elected by the people yet openly describes itself as the government of Europe hence being more on a par with the Soviet Union than the United States.

Concerning the European Union and elections, that is a fair point - but remember that these parties promise referendums/power put back to Westminister everytime they stand for election and they all stand on a seemingly eurosceptic platform. Now this is partly the problem of tribal voting which its the job of parties such as UKIP to break (and it is breaking, 3% behind the Liberal Democrats now with Tory/Labour membership numbers in freefall) but the tribal voting system is held in place by FPTP and a media which is biased towards the main parties.

But yes people do need to wake up and read for themselves on the subject, Europe is the biggest issue facing this country and whether its UKIP or some future party that will get us out - we will leave as the aims of the European project will not be accepted by the British people or for that matter, the continental countries either.



I wish you well on that, but be watchful and do not trust your political class because Europe is very clever in the way in which it works (see The Great Deception, an excellent book to see how the project works). Only today was it announced that another tax is on its way to the financial services district which has sent alarm bells ringing in the City of London - now posing yet another threat to the status of the City as a world financial center.



It was always intended to be a project by stealth to create a European superstate, it remains just that. There is no longer a middle ground "In Europe but not run by Europe" - look how far it has already gone, you have dismantled your own monetary system and placed it in the hands of a power on the continent and now they are openly talking about economic government in order to keep the monetary system together.

Where is this monolith supposed to stop? we need to face the facts, its a runaway train - it is not going to stop.



EU membership has nothing to do with multi-national companies being placed in your country, the United States is not in the European Union yet the U.S. companies operate across the world and intensely in Europe itself. The EU itself is a barrier to free trade, as shown by its ridiculous and costly trade wars with the United States.



If the EU is to 'work', what is the point of it we must ask.

Why does an EU need to work? yes lets sit down and talk in a inter-governmental manner, but not supranationally.

I don't believe that it was always planned to be a "European superstate". After world war two, the main reason for working together was to prevent wars occuring again in Europe. Even you cannot deny how successful it has been in that regard. Also Europe as a whole is far far wealthier today than it was after world war two, and the EU has played a huge role in this.

EU membership makes it easier to trade with other EU countries (which is the main market for these US companies located here) and so it does contribute to these multi nationals being located here.