Justice?

[Stephen]

Why has no one learned yet that you do not reply back to undertaker in current affairs threads. It's pointless and you'll get no where

Edited by Infectious (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not make pointless posts!

[GommeInc]

One vile man killed by two vile men... It's not justice, it's a dirty circle of murder. The two who killed him are worse than the man they killed :/

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'll pick up on the abortion issue as thats the main theme going here, anything you wish to pick me up on then do so.

Also, your argument over the babies - that is because abortion didn't really exist? If someone has accidently fallen pregnant (hey, they might have even been raped), is it not better for the fetus to be killed before it has really developed feelings than have it born in to a family where it isn't wanted? Just like in the animal world where young animals are born but are rejected by their mothers - is it not better for the fetus to be killed when it isn't fully developed etc?

We are not animals nor do I think we should act like them - which is interesting, because only a moment ago you were telling me how the death penalty (with trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right to appeal and a humane method of killing) would make us uncivilised yet you go on to suggest that we should kill the innocent on the basis of convenience and that 'animals do it'.

Apart from rape, you do not 'fall pregnant' accidently.

Why has no one learned yet that you do not reply back to undertaker in current affairs threads. It's pointless and you'll get no where

Can we stop with the smart arse comments?

[AgnesIO]

I'll pick up on the abortion issue as thats the main theme going here, anything you wish to pick me up on then do so.



We are not animals nor do I think we should act like them - which is interesting, because only a moment ago you were telling me how the death penalty (with trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right to appeal and a humane method of killing) would make us uncivilised yet you go on to suggest that we should kill the innocent on the basis of convenience and that 'animals do it'.

Apart from rape, you do not 'fall pregnant' accidently.



Can we stop with the smart arse comments?

We are animals, but not all animals go around killing each other..

Of course you can, it is so old fashioned to think people only have sex for children nowadays.

You seem to have dodged most of my post though.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Of course you can, it is so old fashioned to think people only have sex for children nowadays.

When you have sex, you take the risk that you will end up with a child and/or a disease - the blame sits solely on oneself.

We are animals, but not all animals go around killing each other..

Of course you can, it is so old fashioned to think people only have sex for children nowadays.

You seem to have dodged most of my post though.

Well if I reply to the whole thing I get smart comments thrown at me like Stephen, any points you really want me to pick up on then please do raise them/copy them and i'll reply to them in full. But as I said before, whats your issue against the death penalty? the 'execution is wrong' has been blown away by your support for abortion and the 'wrongly convicted' argument has been blown away by the fact that the risk is so very very very small.

So whats left? other than 'is the death penalty the ultimate punishment in a civilised justice system' - I think it is, thats why I support its use.

[AgnesIO]

When you have sex, you take the risk that you will end up with a child and/or a disease - the blame sits solely on oneself.



Well if I reply to the whole thing I get smart comments thrown at me like Stephen, any points you really want me to pick up on then please do raise them/copy them and i'll reply to them in full.

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=721322&p=7287708#post7287708

There we go.

[Catzsy]

I'll pick up on the abortion issue as thats the main theme going here, anything you wish to pick me up on then do so.



We are not animals nor do I think we should act like them - which is interesting, because only a moment ago you were telling me how the death penalty (with trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right to appeal and a humane method of killing) would make us uncivilised yet you go on to suggest that we should kill the innocent on the basis of convenience and that 'animals do it'.

Apart from rape, you do not 'fall pregnant' accidently.

Can we stop with the smart arse comments?

Of course a woman can fall pregnant accidentally, Dan. Lots of things effect birth control methods including antibiotics, incorrectly fitting caps, condoms that burst etc etc. This I believe. is the choice of woman - it is her body and she has to live with whatever decision she makes for the rest of her life. I know this is huge controversy about this but before 10 weeks it is just a bunch of cells and then becomes a fetus. At 13 weeks or 3 months: The fetus is about 3 inches long and weighs about an ounce. Over 90% of all abortions are performed before this stage. Also are you also against the morning after pill?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Incorrect. The difference is if someone hasn't been found to be innocent after 30 years in jail, then something has gone horribly wrong. The chances of finding someone is innocent after a short amount of time (eg. giving them the death penalty) is much higher.

That is my point and the point you make, things do go horribly wrong (no human system is fail safe after all). But is this a reason for abolishing prisons, that somebody may die in prison having been innocent? no, it isn't. It is not an argument against the death penalty either.

The chances of somebody being sent to death wrongly are minuscule, rather the chances of somebody being sent to prison wrongly are greatly higher as less care will be taken with lesser-cases.

No. As a soldier you are being paid to kill the enemy - that is your job, you know the risk is that your enemy will beat you to it.

You have just proven to me again that you actually believe in execution. Either execution is wrong or its not, but at least with the death penalty incorporated into the justice system you have all the checks and balances which i've listed over and over again within it.

Also, that is not really true. I support abortion is the sense that I would far rather a fetus that is barely there be killed before they are born, if their mother clearly doesn't want them. It is better to kill it when it doesn't really have feelings, than to let it be born and have parents who do not want it - making the life of the child unpleasant.

The excuse to kill is based on quality of life? would you be prepared to say that to those in wheelchairs or who are disabled greatly? it is not down to us or anybody but that person themselves to decide whether their life is 'worth' living. Let's face it, abortions are done for the convenience of the selfish people who decided to take that risk knowing that if a mistake was made, they could simply terminate it.

What a sickening attitude towards fellow human beings.

Also, with euthanasia, people are not being sentenced to death. People have the right do die in countries where euthanasia is legal - if someone wants to die due to a terminal illness and wants to go with respect - then so be it. But no one chooses to die via the death penalty - so again it is a different argument really.

I have all support with optional euthanasia, its the ones done without permission I am strongly against. But as with the contrast, i'm afraid the death penalty isn't a choice because those who are guilty of the most grusome crimes aren't to be given a choice on their punishment, as thats the whole notion of punishment itself.

You can tell you rape tabloids. A lot of journalese used in tabloids.

Well its true isn't it. That is our 'civilised' society that you speak of, whereas the society I actually speak of (it only died around 40 years ago) had the death penalty and was far more civilised than Britain is today.

I think you agree with this as we've all seen it first hand in some form or other, hence the non-response.

Also, your argument over the babies - that is because abortion didn't really exist? If someone has accidently fallen pregnant (hey, they might have even been raped), is it not better for the fetus to be killed before it has really developed feelings than have it born in to a family where it isn't wanted? Just like in the animal world where young animals are born but are rejected by their mothers - is it not better for the fetus to be killed when it isn't fully developed etc?

No it is definetly not better for an unborn to be killed as a matter of convenience.

Alright time for another argument, although I personally believe it isn't totally civilised. How on earth can we teach that killing is wrong by killing - I mean surely that is totally contradictory?

Because they are two totally different things. The death penalty is not killing for killings sake. The death penalty is punishment for gross wrongdoing and we are taught (or so we should be) that if you do wrong things which inflict pain/death upon other individuals then you will be punished.

Most of us understand the notion of the naughty man, and that the naughty man deserves his just reward for wrongdoing.

Also it is fact that in states with the death penalty in the US there is a higher murder rate than in states without the death penalty. So this would beg the question; does the death penalty really deter people?

The United States does not really have the death penalty, its done in such small numbers of which most die on death row that they might aswell not have it at all. It is mere window dressing in their justice system.

Of course a woman can fall pregnant accidentally, Dan. Lots of things effect birth control methods including antibiotics, incorrectly fitting caps, condoms that burst etc etc.

If these burst and so forth, this is still the fault of the woman and man having sex, the same for homosexuals who contract disease due to this. If you have sex you take this risk, the more people you have sex with the more of a risk you are taking. We treat smokers who seemingly contract cancer as a result of their smoking as 'its their own fault' - the same applies to those who become pregnant, contract STDS, contract HIV and so forth.

]This I believe. is the choice of woman - it is her body and she has to live with whatever decision she makes for the rest of her life.

A woman should not have the choice to kill her own child as means of her own convenience. I am the biggest defender on this forum in defence of civil liberties, but nobody has the right to take away a life without a trial before the courts, of which the taking of an innocent life of an unborn would be rejected. Because it cannot defend itself does not mean we can dispose of it.

I know this is huge controversy about this but before 10 weeks it is just a bunch of cells and then becomes a fetus. At 13 weeks or 3 months: The fetus is about 3 inches long and weighs about an ounce. Over 90% of all abortions are performed before this stage. Also are you also against the morning after pill?

A fetus is simply another word for an unborn - science has not been able to come up with a definition of when a baby begins, its my belief that it starts more or less instantly. I don't have a problem with the morning after pill, its before fertilization and I think its the best method for those who fall pregnant as a result of their own recklessness, but never ever should we kill for convenience.

[dbgtz]

I couldn't honestly give a crap about the rapist and his death, I just find it funny how other prisoners take the moral high ground when they probably done things just as terrible, just not the same.

[AgnesIO]

That is my point and the point you make, things do go horribly wrong (no human system is fail safe after all). But is this a reason for abolishing prisons, that somebody may die in prison having been innocent? no, it isn't. It is not an argument against the death penalty either.

The chances of somebody being sent to death wrongly are minuscule, rather the chances of somebody being sent to prison wrongly are greatly higher as less care will be taken with lesser-cases.



You have just proven to me again that you actually believe in execution. Either execution is wrong or its not, but at least with the death penalty incorporated into the justice system you have all the checks and balances which i've listed over and over again within it.



The excuse to kill is based on quality of life? would you be prepared to say that to those in wheelchairs or who are disabled greatly? it is not down to us or anybody but that person themselves to decide whether their life is 'worth' living. Let's face it, abortions are done for the convenience of the selfish people who decided to take that risk knowing that if a mistake was made, they could simply terminate it.

What a sickening attitude towards fellow human beings.

I have all support with optional euthanasia, its the ones done without permission I am strongly against. But as with the contrast, i'm afraid the death penalty isn't a choice because those who are guilty of the most grusome crimes aren't to be given a choice on their punishment, as thats the whole notion of punishment itself.



Well its true isn't it. That is our 'civilised' society that you speak of, whereas the society I actually speak of (it only died around 40 years ago) had the death penalty and was far more civilised than Britain is today.

I think you agree with this as we've all seen it first hand in some form or other, hence the non-response.



No it is definetly not better for an unborn to be killed as a matter of convenience.



Because they are two totally different things. The death penalty is not killing for killings sake. The death penalty is punishment for gross wrongdoing and we are taught (or so we should be) that if you do wrong things which inflict pain/death upon other individuals then you will be punished.

Most of us understand the notion of the naughty man, and that the naughty man deserves his just reward for wrongdoing.



The United States does not really have the death penalty, its done in such small numbers of which most die on death row that they might aswell not have it at all. It is mere window dressing in their justice system.



If these burst and so forth, this is still the fault of the woman and man having sex, the same for homosexuals who contract disease due to this. If you have sex you take this risk, the more people you have sex with the more of a risk you are taking. We treat smokers who seemingly contract cancer as a result of their smoking as 'its their own fault' - the same applies to those who become pregnant, contract STDS, contract HIV and so forth.



A woman should not have the choice to kill her own child as means of her own convenience. I am the biggest defender on this forum in defence of civil liberties, but nobody has the right to take away a life without a trial before the courts, of which the taking of an innocent life of an unborn would be rejected. Because it cannot defend itself does not mean we can dispose of it.



A fetus is simply another word for an unborn - science has not been able to come up with a definition of when a baby begins, its my belief that it starts more or less instantly. I don't have a problem with the morning after pill, its before fertilization and I think its the best method for those who fall pregnant as a result of their own recklessness, but never ever should we kill for convenience.

You know what, Dan? You are a stupid, pathetic.. no, only kidding. You are an intelligent guy! You got my over VM - I am simply playing devils advocate. Basically, as a law student we obviously sometimes have debates. The debate we had last week was for or against capital punishments - however we didn't get the choice on what we had to argue for. So, as you can probably figure, I had to argue against capital punishment. Just good to practice really

But back to your post, since I don't agree with everything you put.

I totally think abortion should be the mothers choice, as I am never sure about a fetus being human or not, having said that I do think it should be hugely restricted. For example, if someone has been raped I totally think it should be their decision if they want an abortion or not - simply because as a human, I know I wouldn't be able to live if my kid turned out to look like the rapist - I would personally struggle to look after a child who looks like someone who had ruined me as a person.

One of my friends was born due to a split condom, and I know for a fact is mother does not particularly want him (telling him aged ten; "you were a mistake" and stuff like that.

But as I hinted in my VM, I am for the death penalty - although there are many strong arguments as to why it shouldn't be brought back - I personally believe some scum would be better off wiped off the planet. But there we go!