Mass Tory rebellion erupts as MPs FINALLY stand up for the people, well, some of them

[-:Undertaker:-]

Would Direct Democracy REALLY make us that much more democratic?

After all, we do vote for the MP's to make the decisions for us..

Yes it would, thats how Switzerland has managed to remain independent despite its political class wanting to join.

But the idea that we vote for MPs to make decisions for us, do we really? or do we vote on tribal lines?

[AgnesIO]

Yes it would, thats how Switzerland has managed to remain independent despite its political class wanting to join.

But the idea that we vote for MPs to make decisions for us, do we really? or do we vote on tribal lines?

As if an educated man like yourself has used the Swiss as an example when it comes to direct democracy. Are you aware of the crazy things they have been known to have your beloved referendums on?

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You are arguing a different point here, Dan. We are supposed to vote for MP's that we want to make decisions and represent our opinions in parliament. Whether we vote for that reason or because we want to vote Labour, Cons, Lib Dem or any other party is a different argument. The idea is that you vote for the MP you think will do the best job at representing our opinions in parliament.

[Ajthedragon]

Don't blame the majority for voting against it really. Although I applaud those who did rebel.

However we're part of the EU problem as well, with our massive deficit and our involvement with Greece, reliance on other European countries for trade. That doesn't stop with ceased membership of the EU.

Frankly I'm all for EU being replaced with a trading bloc, however until such a deal is in place I would fail to support such a motion, I feel the EU is too important to UK exports and services.

Plus the Lib Dem's pretty much guaranteed that we were never going to get a referendum on the matter anyway.

And on the subject of direct democracy, it's just too expensive and long-winded, and frankly given the small-minded people of this country would fall flat on it's face.

[AgnesIO]

Don't blame the majority for voting against it really. Although I applaud those who did rebel.

However we're part of the EU problem as well, with our massive deficit and our involvement with Greece, reliance on other European countries for trade. That doesn't stop with ceased membership of the EU.

Frankly I'm all for EU being replaced with a trading bloc, however until such a deal is in place I would fail to support such a motion, I feel the EU is too important to UK exports and services.

Plus the Lib Dem's pretty much guaranteed that we were never going to get a referendum on the matter anyway.

And on the subject of direct democracy, it's just too expensive and long-winded, and frankly given the small-minded people of this country would fall flat on it's face.

And our civil rights go when membership with the EU goes..

[GommeInc]

Good for them though and the ones who resigned their PPS posts to do it. I agree it was never going to pass but the sheer number of them doing it with have some lasting effects I believe on the party itself. They seem to have found some teeth. The weird thing was that Cameron said he agreed with them but it was the wrong time. When is the right time? I do feel that a referendum is something that the people of this country do want and that they should be given that opportunity.

Indeed it was good of them to stand their ground, but it does make you question the underlying controversy of how many people felt they best be quiet and stay in line - were the number of yes/no/maybe votes accurate to the nubmer of people who felt the need vote to the people who were forced to follow? I think the right time passed long ago, possibly back in the 1980s or whenever the EU came into existence. What the country joined up to doesn't necessarily exist anymore (ECC?), and when things began to change would of been the best time so we can re-think the existence of such a Union.

I can see the arguments of why we shouldn't debate it as it's too late and could do more damage than good in such a globalised community where they are our closest allies and what affects them unfortunately affects us. But as you say, you feel the country should be given a referendum and I personally believe people are entitled to one - the changes do not need to be immediate, but if people do vote then the change should be done within a sensible time limit - but we know that isn't going to be possible.

Would Direct Democracy REALLY make us that much more democratic?

After all, we do vote for the MP's to make the decisions for us..

An interesting question In some ways it's unrealistic but a compromise should be made. At the moment the political class like to say no but give very little explanation as to why it was a no. MPs are not social scientists and are about as dumb, if not dumber than the people they're meant to serve. Their constituents can find the answers for themselves and if the reasons make no sense then they too should question their own opinions and ask themselves if their thoughts and beliefs really reflect those of the nation.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As if an educated man like yourself has used the Swiss as an example when it comes to direct democracy. Are you aware of the crazy things they have been known to have your beloved referendums on?

What, like we had one on the AV system which is more or less the same as FPTP? I think it was a stupid referendum and didn't mean anything so I didn't vote in it - but at the end of the day the Swiss people are outside of the EU and have immense power over their political class which we have not got.

We would no doubt have some 'crazy' referendums, but mostly sensible ones on our membership of the European Union, the death penalty, corporal punishment.. a whole range of issues from both sides where it wouldn't matter what party political tribe you belonged to/how many whips are deployed; the people would hold large swathes of power.

You are arguing a different point here, Dan. We are supposed to vote for MP's that we want to make decisions and represent our opinions in parliament. Whether we vote for that reason or because we want to vote Labour, Cons, Lib Dem or any other party is a different argument. The idea is that you vote for the MP you think will do the best job at representing our opinions in parliament.

Indeed, thats the idea.

Don't blame the majority for voting against it really. Although I applaud those who did rebel.

However we're part of the EU problem as well, with our massive deficit and our involvement with Greece, reliance on other European countries for trade. That doesn't stop with ceased membership of the EU.

Frankly I'm all for EU being replaced with a trading bloc, however until such a deal is in place I would fail to support such a motion, I feel the EU is too important to UK exports and services.

Plus the Lib Dem's pretty much guaranteed that we were never going to get a referendum on the matter anyway.

And on the subject of direct democracy, it's just too expensive and long-winded, and frankly given the small-minded people of this country would fall flat on it's face.

Can I just say on the trading issues, the EU needs us more than we need it in terms of trade (we run a trade deficit with the European Union so we are more important in terms of trade to them than we are to it) so this would not happen. The second reason that tariffs wouldn't be put up is that both the United Kingdom and the European Union would be/are members of the World Trade Organisation.

I would leave the WTO as I don't agree that free trade/trade blocs can be considered free trade, however that is how the matter stands. Therefore, the idea that leaving the EU means ending trade is complete rubbish.

And our civil rights go when membership with the EU goes..

Our civil rights come from old English law which the EU and European courts actually work against, see the EAW (European Arrest Warrant) which allows for you to be carted off to another part of Europe and not be charged for up to 18 months in some cases. If you wish to discuss this further then i'd be most glad to.

Our liberty comes from our constitution, not foreign courts.

[AgnesIO]

What, like we had one on the AV system which is more or less the same as FPTP? I think it was a stupid referendum and didn't mean anything so I didn't vote in it - but at the end of the day the Swiss people are outside of the EU and have immense power over their political class which we have not got.

We would no doubt have some 'crazy' referendums, but mostly sensible ones on our membership of the European Union, the death penalty, corporal punishment.. a whole range of issues from both sides where it wouldn't matter what party political tribe you belonged to/how many whips are deployed; the people would hold large swathes of power.



Indeed, thats the idea.



Can I just say on the trading issues, the EU needs us more than we need it in terms of trade (we run a trade deficit with the European Union so we are more important in terms of trade to them than we are to it) so this would not happen. The second reason that tariffs wouldn't be put up is that both the United Kingdom and the European Union would be/are members of the World Trade Organisation.

I would leave the WTO as I don't agree that free trade/trade blocs can be considered free trade, however that is how the matter stands. Therefore, the idea that leaving the EU means ending trade is complete rubbish.



Our civil rights come from old English law which the EU and European courts actually work against, see the EAW (European Arrest Warrant) which allows for you to be carted off to another part of Europe and not be charged for up to 18 months in some cases. If you wish to discuss this further then i'd be most glad to.

Our liberty comes from our constitution, not foreign courts.

We have a lack of many things outside the EU, due to all the written down stuff being part of the EU.

You rely far too much on the referendum system, Dan. The thing is, how can you justify allowing the people to decide on the death penalty, corporal punishment etc and then say it is not right for them to have a vote on something else? That is when you become like the Swiss.

[-:Undertaker:-]

We have a lack of many things outside the EU, due to all the written down stuff being part of the EU.

Our liberties do not come from the European Union, I say again - the EU does not gurantee personal freedoms at all, rather it threatens them. In the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth we have a unique system of common law called habeas corpus. The European Union and the continent do not have this system, they have a system of corpus juris. A quick read of these and you will see the threat posed to us as individuals by the European Union and its imposition of corpus juris on this country. Our rights come from our consitution; the Magna Carta, habeas corpus, the Bill of Rights and the Act of Union - they do not come from the imposition of corpus juris and the EAW by foreign courts.

Now, is that now clear enough to see that the EU does not protect civil liberties, rather is endangers them?

You rely far too much on the referendum system, Dan. The thing is, how can you justify allowing the people to decide on the death penalty, corporal punishment etc and then say it is not right for them to have a vote on something else? That is when you become like the Swiss.

I'd like to reinstate all of these things straight away, however I know, that in order not to act like those who took these things away from us without our approval, that a referendum should be held. If a few silly referendums arise out of this, then so what? who cares? just vote against the proposed motion. It really is that simply, using your head and saying no or yes. You do not need government to tell you how to think.

If your reasoning behind this is that you mightn't like the outcomes of the referenda, why not just end elections at the same time?