mass shooting in PA while... NRA is calling for more guns

[-:Undertaker:-]

Which obviously isn't true and is just a thoughtless statement with no real backing. it obviously isn't true otherwise the gun crime rate would be much higher in the uk rather than 0.2%

Untrue, it's more so culture which decides whether a criminal gets a gun rather than the supply. The example can be seen in Switzerland where gun culture is not present compared with the likes of the United States or neighbouring Mexico.

There's a huge difference between drugs which any unskilled junky could make and a firearm which would be impossible for homemad construction and distribution making this point redundant. It's like comparing the circulation of a sportscar to a homemade wagon, any Tom **** and Harry can make a crappy wagon but you won't be finding guns being made this way.

Guns are very easy to smuggle much like other things, especially when you have a land border like the United States with a country like Mexico (another country that has strict gun laws, much good they are doing).

You don't like it but the fact is that guns are going to get in. So what are you going to do about it?

Again, irrelevant point because they can simply drive a state over and purchase one then transport it back without having to pass through any borders/customs.

But but da gun lawz wud stop it right??? the logic coming from you is so flawed is gob smacking. So when US states (all of which have tough guns laws anyway, just some are more tough than others) ban guns altogether where do you think guns will come from next? neighbouring Mexico my friend which has a massive land border with the United States.

But don't let logic get in the way.

Shame that I didn't quote any Swiss ones...

Your side of the argument gets really angry when Switzerland is brought up because its an example which proves that you can have lax gun laws and very low gun crime. Annoying, yeah? as i've said before, if you are really serious about this issue then start thinking in terms of gun culture and drug usage as opposed to the caveman thought process of 'gunz r bad lets ban them and everythin will b3 solved'.

Doesn't work, it's a pipe dream.

They both interlink, America wouldn't have a gun culture if guns were banned the same as in the UK.

What, like Mexico?

No, it isn't hence the low statistics in the UK. We don't live in some Hollywood film where on every street corner you can find an arms dealer with a huge arsenal in the boot of his car.

Watch Ross Kemp on gangs, the Liverpool edition. From what I recall, it tells another story.

Again this isn't fact, just you trying to rationalise your argument with untrue statements.

This is well known fact actually, most murders are not pre-meditated and are crimes gone wrong.

Using your logic of 'if a madman wants a gun he will get one whether they are banned or not' you're really telling me price is the deterring factor? Try harder dan...

Price is a factor for petty criminals, yes.

Teacher's shouldn't be forced into wielding guns and its insane to think that increasing the amount of weapons in the US is the most appropriate response. Not only would this be completely ignoring the root of the problem (lack of mental health care) it would have a negative effect to the amount of potential teachers, since they are applying to teach, not be armed vigilantes.

I wouldn't force teachers to do anything or even schools for that matter, but i'd be sending my children to a school where the teachers are armed or the school has armed guards. Much like Mr. Obama who sends his children to an armed school.

And it's easy for you to dream of a world where everybody can own whatever they want but it's simply just that, a dream. Not everybody is mentally responsible to own a firearm and I'd much rather the idea of an unarmed majority as opposed to everybody walking round with holsters dangling from their waists.

The US has restrictions in place to prevent crazies from getting guns. However, not every system is infallible - including yours.

A gun free country with decent mental health care is a far better sight than one with the Ted Nugent philosophy of an eye for an eye and shoot to kill.

You mean a country which hands out anti-depressants in the name of mental health? of which almost every gun mass murderer has been taking? don't you find that a little bit strange as Mr. Hitchens has pointed out?

But no, by all means continue blaming guns as opposed to the nutters who carry out these crimes.

They aren't backed up, you haven't provided proof of your main point which is 'its easy to buy guns in the uk' which is complete and utter garbage hence the low gun crime over here.

If you do respond please don't try and pass off your opinions as fact and then use that for the entire basis of your argument.

My opinions are fact and they're logical, yours are driven on pure emotion - but the good thing is that your opinion and the opinion of the hysterical majority doesn't matter in this debate as the US Constitution was put into place to protect my rights from your terrible arguments.

So amen for that, land of the free.

[Kardan]

Can I just bring up Switzerland, yet again... You say that Switzerland has 'very low' gun crime, but of course it depends what you mean by 'low' Compared to the US, who also have guns, yes. Compared to the UK, who do not have guns, Switzerland's gun crime is very high.

My opinions are fact

Well, we might as well close this thread then, since there's no debate really, is there?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Can I just bring up Switzerland, yet again... You say that Switzerland has 'very low' gun crime, but of course it depends what you mean by 'low' Compared to the US, who also have guns, yes. Compared to the UK, who do not have guns, Switzerland's gun crime is very high.

Indeed, or use examples such as Mexico (very very very strict gun laws, almost banned) or the United Kingdom before 1920 when we also had low gun crime but had lax gun laws - the only reason guns were banned in the UK of course being that the government was afraid of revolution.

So as I keep saying, it's much more to do with culture and maybe evn drugs - not gun ownership.

Well, we might as well close this thread then, since there's no debate really, is there?

The point was merely returned to The Don, who has resorted to telling me my opinions aren't fact (really high class of intellect debate there).

But hey you might aswell close, as the US Constitution thankfully safeguards the liberty of the free against the tyranny of the hysterical majority.

And I can't stress or rub that in enough.

[The Don]

The point was merely returned to The Don, who has resorted to telling me my opinions aren't fact (really high class of intellect debate there).

But hey you might aswell close, as the US Constitution thankfully safeguards the liberty of the free against the tyranny of the hysterical majority.

I was pointing out that you haven't provided any fact (and used your opinion without any backing to form your entire argument). Using your opinions as fact isn't an intellectual debate, Dan. You haven't provided one bit of evidence to make your argument any more credible. I completely shred apart your pathetic point about every criminal being able to obtain a firearm (And no, Ross Kemp on gangs doesn't reinforce that point, the statistics do which argue otherwise). I didn't have you down as one to resort to petty passive-aggressive responses, it's similar to a baby throwing its rattle out the pram when they don't get their way (or in this case, are provided with irrefutable evidence). Before you mention the Swiss again, check their crime rates, which as @Kardan; pointed out, are substantially higher than that of the UK. I guess logic has been tossed to the side for this debate?

Oh, and your inane point about closing the thread because the US Constitution safeguards firearm ownership is made redundant due to 'amendments'.

Edit: Love how you respond to "this isn't fact" with "Yes it is LOLZ" as if it validates your point somehow.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I was pointing out that you haven't provided any fact (and used your opinion without any backing to form your entire argument). Using your opinions as fact isn't an intellectual debate, Dan. You haven't provided one bit of evidence to make your argument any more credible. I completely shred apart your pathetic point about every criminal being able to obtain a firearm (And no, Ross Kemp on gangs doesn't reinforce that point, the statistics do which argue otherwise). I didn't have you down as one to resort to petty passive-aggressive responses, it's similar to a baby throwing its rattle out the pram when they don't get their way (or in this case, are provided with irrefutable evidence). Before you mention the Swiss again, check their crime rates, which as @Kardan; pointed out, are substantially higher than that of the UK. I guess logic has been tossed to the side for this debate?

Oh, and your inane point about closing the thread because the US Constitution safeguards firearm ownership is made redundant due to 'amendments'.

Edit: Love how you respond to "this isn't fact" with "Yes it is LOLZ" as if it validates your point somehow.

No debate again, just telling me how my argument is redundant purely because you don't like it.

I've addressed the Swiss gun figures as did the Peter Hitchens article which pointed out that suicide via the gun is also included in the figures which skewes the statistics. I have also declared in my arguments on this forum that I believe a higher death rate (in anything) is worth paying to be a free subject or citizen - see my examples on homosexuality, cars, dangerous sports and so on.

A great deal of freedoms will lead to increased risks, of course.