Conservatives in crisis as they are overtaken by UKIP in crucial by-election

[AgnesIO]

Ah delightful, the reply is much appreciated. +rep

I don't want a long debate either if you think i'm trying to drag you into one, just a quick back-and forth!



That's strange aha, most people even those who disagree with him quite like his down to earth personality, the type of guy to have a pint with.

And where in your mind does Farage go too far in wanting to change immigration? I mean, do you even know the UKIP policy on immigration? (without looking it up) - just a fair question i'm interested to know the answer of, and if so what parts of that policy are worse than the policy we have today?

Always come across to me as annoyingly smug (particularly when he is in Europe, it just comes across as tedious to me - I may well be in the minority there haha). With regards to immigration I have read the policies before, so I will answer this without looking it up now (which would certainly refresh memory, but also be pointless for this discussion ). I totally agree on their aspect of returning illegal immigrants, for example. Whether this would be easy to do - even outside of the EU - as I imagine there would often be a strong case with the UDHR. I am unsure exactly what they refer to when they suggest treating people here due to the EU like any other country - if it literally looks to kick as many out as possible, then I think that would be wrong - especially if someone has been living here for over 8 years (and working, of course). I do find their immediate five year freeze policy slightly odd too - what do we do with staff who would be very beneficial to UK firms? Like the often very hard working Asian's in business?

On what evidence are you basing this on? have you read Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and come to this conclusion? if so, you would know that nobody is suggesting we 'stroll out of it' - because we have to leave legally and in a sensible manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...ade_agreements

Give me one reason why countries such as Argentina, Egypt, Oman and Saudi Arabia can have a FTA with the EU but we, one of their biggest trading partners and a country which is the financial capital of the world, cannot.

Because they were never in Europe to start with. I think if we never entered Europe, we could get a FTA easily - I cannot see Europe reacting too well to us leaving, then asking for the best bit of it back. I didn't mean stroll out of it as a simply "bye guyz" - but whether you do it legally or not, I was just referring to the idea of how it seems people want us to just leave, as if it were that simple!


Well I didn't exactly come from a very poor area, but the areas I know and live in/around are classed as deprived (Liverpool Walton, Bootle, Anfield, Fazakerly) and I know from my own experience at school at a state comprehensive that it let down the cleverer kids who I remember watching sitting there, completely bored out of their wits because they were miles ahead of the class.

The reason social mobility has been declining since the grammar were abolished in the 1960s? the answer is in the question.

As I have already said, I couldn't really give a reasonable argument based on knowledge about the grammar schools - as we have one in my area, and as I say, I don't really know what areas of England are particularly poor.

But you've just said Cameron, Miliband and Clegg can't do anything too drastic because of their weakness.. and then gone on to blast the two people who you think would bring change? :S I don't understand.

I think they (well, he) would bring change - I think they would try and make too much change, at a too rapid pace. We have seen this with Michael Gove and his changes to education (and of course the pretty sharp u-turns!)

Additionally, on another point, I agree that they should scrap benefits for non-UK citizens. But there are just as many (in fact, I think there are far more) UK citizens to ride the benefits system like a theme park ride than there are non-UK citizens. I would personally have their benefits scrapped and put in prison, but that is just me.

Anyway +Rep, nice to talk about this sort of stuff again, Dan

[Ardemax]

I know this is slightly off topic but what are the UKIP views on benefits in general?

Relating to this thread: I think the more Lib-Dem "strongholds" under pressure the better. So close to seeing some actual change.