Brits are now poorer than the French, Swiss, Belgians, Swedes, Austrians, Aussies...

[AgnesIO]

How can dissolving Britain into a federal state possibly help it? is national sovereignty not important to you? in any case, even if dissolving Britain into a federal state did help is it not better to be able to make your own laws and controlling your own destiny rather than sacrificing that key power for any monetary or soft/hard power gain on the world stage?

Is your sense of identity so weak that you can simply drop being British tommorow depending on economic circumstances? bizzare.



How can it work when there exists no European people only peoples (there exists no demos)? I cannot name one democratic political system that has survived or remained stable that does not have a single or large majority demos. Can you?



Indeed, which is why they are so useless and richly deserve to fall apart after they lose for the fifth time in a row come 2015.

As I say, the economy is ultimately the most important factor to me. Business is what means so much to me in life, I have never hidden that fact - and that all ultimately lies on the economy. I would prefer a complete political union to the current mish-mash of having both national and intergovernmental (some would argue supranational) powers - all that has done is create double the red tape, and confusing laws. I think the Single Market is a fantastic creation, and the issue we have that other states that never joined Europe (ie. Switzerland do not have is that we accepted membership. The only way we can realistically be a part of a European Single Market is if the majority of states decide to leave (which would be a brilliant ending) - but I simply cannot see that happening.

The EU could have demos. I am never going to deny the lack of a unified culture - and the USE does at present look like it could not ever happen. But my god if I believed it would help the economy I would join it tomorrow.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As I say, the economy is ultimately the most important factor to me. Business is what means so much to me in life, I have never hidden that fact - and that all ultimately lies on the economy. I would prefer a complete political union to the current mish-mash of having both national and intergovernmental (some would argue supranational) powers - all that has done is create double the red tape, and confusing laws. I think the Single Market is a fantastic creation, and the issue we have that other states that never joined Europe (ie. Switzerland do not have is that we accepted membership. The only way we can realistically be a part of a European Single Market is if the majority of states decide to leave (which would be a brilliant ending) - but I simply cannot see that happening.

Create double the red tape? no no, you have it completely the wrong way around. The entire reason the European Union creates such a crazy amount of regulation is very simple - that it is hellbent on acquiring more power at the centre, the exact opposite of what a healthy economy needs.

As for the single market, personally I see little benefit at all. We are told that it makes sense for the rules to be standardised so that we can sell products - which it does. But little mention is made of the fact that all companies tailor their products to different markets anyway just as all exports to the United States from Britain have to be made in accordance with US production practices. So it's a moot point, a relic of post-war thinking when there was only the old European powers and the US who had any economic sway. The world is much bigger and complex now.

The EU could have demos. I am never going to deny the lack of a unified culture - and the USE does at present look like it could not ever happen.

It could have a demos in the same way that China and Saudi Arabia could have a demos in 2213 through some very bizzare and centuries-long encounters - just as it took England and Scotland 7 or 8 centuries to eventually come to a Union (and even that Union is fragmented) - yet you somehow think that a union of much more differing and fiercely independent (after WW2 and Soviet domination) states in Europe could come to a union in our lifetime.

It's not going to happen because its make-believe - yet, you are prepared to risk everything (peace, economcic stability and prosperity) on the vague notion that a federal Europe 'could' work when all other similar attempts have failed. How many more economies, cultures and wars do we have to experience in Europe to realise that creating nations out of nothing only leads to misery and destruction?

Kalmar Union, Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia, the Third Reich, the Soviet Union, Cyprus, Italian unification, Spain and its troubles.... endless examples of complete and utter failure at the behest of utopian and unworkable ideas dreamt up by 'intellectuals' looking at maps rather than peoples.

But my god if I believed it would help the economy I would join it tomorrow.

So in other words, sacrifice everything - a thousand years of sovereignty, independence, a legal system of common law, seperate culture, independent church, Royalty, unionism and everything else that makes Britain what it is - on the altar of vague & unproven economic benefits.

Ironically even if a USE was workable, it'd be one that damages the economy rather than helps it. You say business is what matters most to you - then you should know that continental Europe is totally different in its mindset to business than Britain and the Anglosphere countries are with Europe preferring high state control of industries via regulation and nationalisation.

For somebody who takes an interest in business, you appear to know little of the economic history of Europe since 1900.

[Chippiewill]

and not a care for democracy (as Europe doesn't have a demos and thus can never be a functioning democracy even if it wanted to be).

Not sure why anyone would, it doesn't work.