Told you so: Number of Romanian and Bulgarian workers surges to record high

[e5]

Heard on the radio loads about this this morning.

How they'll work for so little and brits are losing out on work because bosses can employ polish people to work for minimum wage!

[God]

@Undertaker; to lazy to actually look back and forth to get each and every silly symbol from his name.

Honestly are you one of them politicians? Tbh I thought this was another idiot Amurican politics b word complaining about how Immigrants are taking over his country.

NOPE

Its you once again with your mind so narrow not even a drop of water can slip through.


Anyways may I clear something up with you, considering your complaining about people from another country, the fact of the matter is, you have no problem to worry at all. A few Common things people like YOU are afraid of when it comes to immigrants is the following, which can easily be disproven;

1. That they're taking all the jobs.

Thing is, with more people coming into the country wherever they displace to will have an increase in population, meaning more jobs will be made, due to the increased demand for materials, homes, food, and such. It is a proven fact, yet I'll leave it for you to go find it for yourself.


2. They Depress Wages.


Unless they are without a High School diploma, which in the uk most do, then they're isn't a depression in wages, which would still be low. Immigrates are mostly Low Skilled, or Highly Skilled with few in the middle. Most "Born and Raised" people that are from the country are mostly in the middle, with few at the bottom and the top. Look at the Graph below. in the link.

http://prntscr.com/2u8x7v


3. They are a drag on the economy.

People for immigration agree that they arn't a drag on the economy, and even Most of those who dont want immigration agree with this too.



Anyways undertaker, if you can't even accept yourself (cough, cough, your preference in a sexual partner) then that shows, how narrow minded you truly are, clearly youre a bigot.


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The first and last paragraphs are directed at your previous threads that uve posted

[Yawn]

wow thats u told then

[Kardan]

This thread however is about Romanian and Bulgarian immigration

No, this thread is about Romanian and Bulgarian employment.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes you are this whole thread is about the supposed new influx... and ok but what's actually happened is a 2% increase in migration from those areas as opposed to the 40% that's being thrown around in the article - that number is how many more people from those countries are working in the UK which should surely be a reason to celebrate since it means that there's a huge decrease in the benefits they're claiming, which seems to be your worry

I barely ever complain about the benefits being used, my primary concern with immigration isn't mostly economic either - my prime concern about immigration is the social and cultural aspect.

Heard on the radio loads about this this morning.

How they'll work for so little and brits are losing out on work because bosses can employ polish people to work for minimum wage!

Indeed, sometimes for even less as immigrants will often live 12 to a small crowded house which means that the average British worker just hasn't a chance of any work.

I don't blame the immigrants either - it's entirely the fault of the politicians for the open borders.

@Undertaker; to lazy to actually look back and forth to get each and every silly symbol from his name.

Honestly are you one of them politicians? Tbh I thought this was another idiot Amurican politics b word complaining about how Immigrants are taking over his country.

NOPE

Its you once again with your mind so narrow not even a drop of water can slip through.

Oooh i'm narrow minded am I? The majority of the British public must be narrow minded then considering how immigration now ranks jointly with the economy as the top political issue in the polling and how a majority of Britons want immigration curbed hence why the political class at every election promises a clampdown on mass immigration.

You are the narrow minded one and you're in a minority on this.

Anyways may I clear something up with you, considering your complaining about people from another country, the fact of the matter is, you have no problem to worry at all. A few Common things people like YOU are afraid of when it comes to immigrants is the following, which can easily be disproven;

1. That they're taking all the jobs.

Thing is, with more people coming into the country wherever they displace to will have an increase in population, meaning more jobs will be made, due to the increased demand for materials, homes, food, and such. It is a proven fact, yet I'll leave it for you to go find it for yourself.

That is total rubbish. Even if this were true, the fact is that the economy hasn't been in great shape for a while coupled with the fact that many immigrants - especially Eastern European immigrants which the thread is about - either a) send most if not all of their money earnt back home & b) are on such low wages that they are a net burden on the state rather than a net benefit.

2. They Depress Wages.


Unless they are without a High School diploma, which in the uk most do, then they're isn't a depression in wages, which would still be low. Immigrates are mostly Low Skilled, or Highly Skilled with few in the middle. Most "Born and Raised" people that are from the country are mostly in the middle, with few at the bottom and the top. Look at the Graph below. in the link.

http://prntscr.com/2u8x7v

This is rubbish and has been dismissed by many men working in the trade industries such as brickies, plumbers and electricians. If you allow a lot of people in with a skill, as what happened during the boom of the last decade, you will force that sectors wages downwards or have them stagnate in comparison to the wages of the rest of the country thus meaning that the people working in those sectors will suffer with inflation even if their wages don't go downwards.

If a plumber was earning £30,000 a year in 2001 and was earning the same amount in 2011 because of mass immigration, then he's lost out when inflation is taken into consideration.

3. They are a drag on the economy.

People for immigration agree that they arn't a drag on the economy, and even Most of those who dont want immigration agree with this too.

Mass immigration by it's nature adds to the GDP because more people = more GDP. India for example has a GDP close behind the United Kingdom, yet you misunderstand one thing and it's this: GDP per capita. We could hypothetically important 500m Africans tommorow and i'm sure our GDP would jump to the third highest in the world........ yet GDP per capita would mean that most of the population would be living in third world conditions.

So immigration = good for economy is a false argument. Controlled immigration on the other hand - which is what I am making the case for - is good for the economy.

Anyways undertaker, if you can't even accept yourself (cough, cough, your preference in a sexual partner) then that shows, how narrow minded you truly are, clearly youre a bigot.

I am confused as to what this has to do with anything that's been discussed. Nevertheless, does that surely not show that I use my head rather than heart when looking at issues? That although I may want something to be true, I cannot convince myself out of choice for it to be correct, right or true? That would make me very open minded, as opposed to narrow minded which is what you claimed I was at the start of the thread.

Abortion is another issue for example where by I hated changing my opinion on it but couldn't resist the logic.

No, this thread is about Romanian and Bulgarian employment.

Oh come off it, don't mince the subject. Romanian and Bulgarians coming here (which is another member state of the European Union) to work is what immigration is.

[Kardan]

Oh come off it, don't mince the subject. Romanian and Bulgarians coming here (which is another member state of the European Union) to work is what immigration is.

The ONS has this as a disclaimer on the bottom of their data that we are discussing in this thread:

The estimates shown in this table relate to the number of people in employment and should not be used as a proxy for flows of foreign migrants into the UK.

So if you want to use data that backs up your views on IMMIGRATION do not use data which is solely based on EMPLOYMENT.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The ONS has this as a disclaimer on the bottom of their data that we are discussing in this thread:

So if you want to use data that backs up your views on IMMIGRATION do not use data which is solely based on EMPLOYMENT.

You are trying to make it out as though foreign workers coming into the United Kingdom to work is completely different and unrelated to the subject of mass (and EU) immigration. Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

[Kardan]

You are trying to make it out as though foreign workers coming into the United Kingdom to work is completely different and unrelated to the subject of mass (and EU) immigration. Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

This is where you are wrong.

Nowhere in the data does it say 'Number of foreign-born people immigrating to the UK and now employed' it says 'Number of foreign-born people employed in the UK'. Let's say you have a big influx of immigration in 2005, but all of the people stay unemployed, this data would show 0 new workers. But let's say all those people stay unemployed until 2013 - now there will be a big influx in employment - all this data is saying is that more Romanians and Bulgarians are employed, NOT that they have moved into the UK.

It's two totally different things, it's pretty easy to grasp that they are not equal. There might be correlation between the two, but that does not make the data equal.

[FlyingJesus]

That's what I was saying before and he deflected it by saying that he cares about social and cultural things more... before going back to talking about the economy

[-:Undertaker:-]

This is where you are wrong.

Nowhere in the data does it say 'Number of foreign-born people immigrating to the UK and now employed' it says 'Number of foreign-born people employed in the UK'. Let's say you have a big influx of immigration in 2005, but all of the people stay unemployed, this data would show 0 new workers. But let's say all those people stay unemployed until 2013 - now there will be a big influx in employment - all this data is saying is that more Romanians and Bulgarians are employed, NOT that they have moved into the UK.

It's two totally different things, it's pretty easy to grasp that they are not equal. There might be correlation between the two, but that does not make the data equal.

I'm sorry but that isn't even what i'm arguing, your trying to point score over something that's entirely irrelevent. The point being made by the article and myself is that open borders with Romania and Bulgaria over the past decade (along with other countries) is out of control and that in such bad economic times, it's unacceptable to continue allowing such numbers to both remain and come into the United Kingdom.

It's as simple as that really. I agree with controlled borders and you don't. Why not just come out in the open and say such a thing instead of mashing up the topic into what it isn't? Again, if you have issues with how the Telegraph as presented the article then I suggest you take it up with them and not with me as i'm wanting to have a general discussion over immigration.

That's what I was saying before and he deflected it by saying that he cares about social and cultural things more... before going back to talking about the economy

Well that's because I do, yet all you lot seem to be able to reply in response is 'well their working arent they' so obviously i'm going to have to respond to the economic points to such arguments, as I just did with Dragga. Nevertheless whilst the social and cultural issue is my biggest concern, that's not to say the economic issues resulting from uncontrolled immigration don't bother me or concern me because they do.