State schools isolate non-Muslims

[-:Undertaker:-]

I was indeed wrong about the newspaper poll comparison and calling you a hypocrite, I misread one of the articles. However, half of those 'sources' are dead links and about 5 of them all link to the same pdf. I also can't find the original source that all those articles are quoting so as far as i'm concerned they are not eligible sources.

Then look at the other polls by ICM and others provided via the link.

And apology accepted.

Anyway, we're going off topic. This incident is not representative of british muslims, and contrary to what you believe, are not mostly 'third worlders' with '15th century views'.

The scientific polling on British muslims social attitudes is representative of British muslims.

Not liking poll results or findings doesn't make them not true.

Maybe you just need a history lesson then since there have been huge changes in those places since medieval times, just like there has been here - oops, I forgot that I'm not allowed to suggest that culture changes ever

Yes, but that's mainly with the introduction of western technology which has often made things even worse than they were. You only have to look at the massacres that still take place in Africa of different tribes, the treatment of women, the rise of powerful strongmen who used to call themselves the King of Chief but who now pose as Presidents. It's still the same medieval mindset.

Have you ever been to these places? I have and while it's obviously rather different to Worthing they aren't stoning people in the streets or riding people down for looking a bit poor. I'd be interested to know exactly what you think British culture is anyway, since you never really manage to define it beyond Victorian beliefs.

Monachy. Christianity (protestantism). Common law. English law. Parliamentary democracy. Conservatism and a healthy distrust in political radicalism. Free trade and invention. British Economics. English language. English poetry. British cuisine. British architecture. British music or 'Brit pop'.

Like any other country really, but with our own twist and our own common and shared beliefs.

[FlyingJesus]

People who are moderates or who don't particularly want to be defined by their religion will not take part in polls about these things, and those who are more successful and busy won't have time to either since they go on for ages and ages with hundreds of irrelevant questions of which 3 get published in order to promote fear of a minority within a minority. Polls are a terrible way to find out what an entire group of people think, especially with such low numbers and especially when they choose their own targets for questioning from a list of people they've already marked as being likely to have certain views.

[The Don]

Then look at the other polls by ICM and others provided via the link.

And apology accepted.



The scientific polling on British muslims social attitudes is representative of British muslims.

Not liking poll results or findings doesn't make them not true.

Here's the polling by icm



So, going by that data, majority of them do not have '15th century' beliefs. Care to admit you're wrong?

[-:Undertaker:-]

People who are moderates or who don't particularly want to be defined by their religion will not take part in polls about these things, and those who are more successful and busy won't have time to either since they go on for ages and ages with hundreds of irrelevant questions of which 3 get published in order to promote fear of a minority within a minority. Polls are a terrible way to find out what an entire group of people think, especially with such low numbers and especially when they choose their own targets for questioning from a list of people they've already marked as being likely to have certain views.

That is again, what people who don't like poll findings say.

Read on how polling is really done before you make the same charge that members of political parties say when they do not like or approve of certain poll results. Scientific polling is incredibly accurate and includes weightings to take account of the demographic.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's the polling by icm



So, going by that data, majority of them do not have '15th century' beliefs. Care to admit you're wrong?

I didn't say the majority of them [British muslims] in Britain had 15th century beliefs.

I did however post polling, which you have posted too, stating how large numbers of them have rather extreme or worrying views. If you look a the poll table you posted, you are simply repeating statistics which I have already posted - many of which worry me.

[The Don]

That is again, what people who don't like poll findings say.

Read on how polling is really done before you make the same charge that members of political parties say when they do not like or approve of certain poll results. Scientific polling is incredibly accurate and includes weightings to take account of the demographic.

- - - Updated - - -



I didn't say the majority of them in Britain had 15th century beliefs.

I did however post polling, which you have posted too, stating how large numbers of them have rather extreme or worrying views.

As you can see though, the overwhelming large majority do not have extreme views. Unless you were referencing a different ICM study? If so, could you please link it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As you can see though, the overwhelming large majority do not have extreme views. Unless you were referencing a different ICM study? If so, could you please link it.

By those polling results you posted, the following is true -

75% have loyalty to Britain, 12% disagree.

61% agree that English should be spoken in public, 28% disagree.

18% agree that Muslims should speak English at home, 65% disagree.

88% agree that women should dress how they wish, 8% disagree.

95% agree with the right of women to go out and work, 4% disagree.

82% agree with the right of a woman to divorce, 12% disagree.

29% agree with the right of gay people to have relationships, 56% disagree.

66% approve of the state fighting against al-Qaeda, 16% disagree.

80% would inform the Police of a suspected terrorist, 9% would not.


Now some of those figures are rather good, but others are very worrying. Would you not agree?

[FlyingJesus]

Monachy. Christianity (protestantism). Common law. English law. Parliamentary democracy. Conservatism and a healthy distrust in political radicalism. Free trade and invention. British Economics. English language. English poetry. British cuisine. British architecture. British music or 'Brit pop'.

Like any other country really, but with our own twist and our own common and shared beliefs.

Literally all of these things have undergone huge changes through time, and literally none of them (unless you want enforced Christianity which is indeed very medieval) are under threat by a handful of extremists who have always existed in some form or other as must be the case in any free country

That is again, what people who don't like poll findings say.

Read on how polling is really done before you make the same charge that members of political parties say when they do not like or approve of certain poll results. Scientific polling is incredibly accurate and includes weightings to take account of the demographic.

I admit that I don't like polls - any "study" that claims to make conclusive fact out of asking a tiny number of people a large number of completely closed questions is ridiculous. It's useful as a business tool to discern where a market may or may not lie, but it has no place as a method of attempting to come up with statistical truths about an entire population unless it asks the entire population. If I ask a hundred people if they're willing to take part in a lengthy questionnaire about the state of cycle paths, you can bet that the huge majority of those who are willing to do so will have a personal vested interest in it, and that skews the results right from the start before the questions even begin.

[The Don]

By those polling results you posted, the following is true -

75% have loyalty to Britain, 12% disagree.

61% agree that English should be spoken in public, 28% disagree.

18% agree that Muslims should speak English at home, 65% disagree.

88% agree that women should dress how they wish, 8% disagree.

95% agree with the right of women to go out and work, 4% disagree.

82% agree with the right of a woman to divorce, 12% disagree.

29% agree with the right of gay people to have relationships, 56% disagree.

66% approve of the state fighting against al-Qaeda, 16% disagree.

80% would inform the Police of a suspected terrorist, 9% would not.


Now some of those figures are rather good, but others are very worrying. Would you not agree?

The only one with a large majority agreeing with an extreme opinion is the gay one, which is not surprising considering many people in western society still have a problem with it, homophobia is not a '15th century' opinion and is certainly not limited to muslims. You yourself would be one of those which answered no for this question too, since you were opposed to gay marriage being legalised when it came up in this forum a while back, pretty amusing that you share the only extreme belief with a majority on that poll. Which other ones have a 'large number' of people agreeing with it, which entitles you to class them as having 15th century beliefs? (that is ignoring the fact that you can't take polls as 100% for the reasons mentioned previously by tom)

[FlyingJesus]

And of course those "results" do not ever add up to 100%, meaning large numbers of respondents are being completely ignored because they aren't giving an answer that the poll wants to hear, coupled with the way people come up with conclusions such as having a 1-5 scale for a question like "do you think women should have the right to divorce her husband" and anyone not voting with "strongly agree" will be marked as an opponent

[-:Undertaker:-]

Literally all of these things have undergone huge changes through time, and literally none of them (unless you want enforced Christianity which is indeed very medieval) are under threat by a handful of extremists who have always existed in some form or other as must be the case in any free country

They have. But over a timescale of hundreds of years by British people. Not via millions of immigrants from overseas.

I admit that I don't like polls - any "study" that claims to make conclusive fact out of asking a tiny number of people a large number of completely closed questions is ridiculous. It's useful as a business tool to discern where a market may or may not lie, but it has no place as a method of attempting to come up with statistical truths about an entire population unless it asks the entire population. If I ask a hundred people if they're willing to take part in a lengthy questionnaire about the state of cycle paths, you can bet that the huge majority of those who are willing to do so will have a personal vested interest in it, and that skews the results right from the start before the questions even begin.

That's just wrong, polls do have a use and can measure the average opinion of a group of people. If polls had no use of all, then political parties would not commission secret opinion polls in target seat areas nor would they bother to study the demographic of the area - the data of which they add together to target certain groups of voters. The same for newspapers commissioning polls, thinktanks, companies and millionaire donors.

The only one with a large majority agreeing with an extreme opinion is the gay one, which is not surprising considering many people in western society still have a problem with it, homophobia is not a '15th century' opinion and is certainly not limited to muslims. You yourself would be one of those which answered no for this question too, since you were opposed to gay marriage being legalised when it came up in this forum a while back, pretty amusing that you share the only extreme belief with a majority on that poll. Which other ones have a 'large number' of people agreeing with it, which entitles you to class them as having 15th century beliefs? (that is ignoring the fact that you can't take polls as 100% for the reasons mentioned previously by tom)

The fact that 61% (leaving out a huge 39%) believe that English should be spoken in public.

The fact that nearly 10% disagree that women should be allowed to wear what they wish. That's 1 in 10.

The fact that 56% disagree with the right of gay people simply to have a relationship.

The fact that 66% agree with the state fighting al-Qaeda, leaving out a huge 34%.

The fact that nearly 10% wouldn't inform the Police of a suspected Islamic terrorist. That's 1 in 10.


Clearly there are problems there. Big problems. You do moderate muslims no favours either by pretending there are no problems.

There is also the question of how truthful people are being to the pollsters as people sometimes tend to shy away from radical answers when it comes to questions. But that's simply me guessing.......

In the early 80's I arrested a Muslim Cleric for stealing
from and intimidating his non Muslim tenants. Over the course of many
interviews he lied and lied. When I finally cornered him and had no choice but
to confess I said that I had studied comparative religions in a former
profession and that it is a sin for a Muslim to lie.

He replied that yes I was correct but a Muslim can tell as many lies as he
wishes to defeat an infidel. He said, 'You are an infidel, a non believer you
are of no account I can say anything I like to you.' It is even sanctioned by
the Taqiyya.

As for the gay marriage thing, again you confuse issues. I have said before actually that I probably have many shared beliefs with Islam in that I tend to be more socially conservative myself - hence why as i've said before, I do not regard gay marriage as anything near to real marriage. But would I deny gay people the right to have relationships? Never, no more than I would use the state to interfere in the bedroom or in the pubs in regards to smoking.

Also, to clarify - i'm not against gay marriage being de facto legalised, I was just against this type of legalisation in 2014 because a) I don't believe in the state having a role in marriage & b) I worry for religious groups/the Churches and the ECHR.

And of course those "results" do not ever add up to 100%, meaning large numbers of respondents are being completely ignored because they aren't giving an answer that the poll wants to hear, coupled with the way people come up with conclusions such as having a 1-5 scale for a question like "do you think women should have the right to divorce her husband" and anyone not voting with "strongly agree" will be marked as an opponent

That is total rubbish. Polls do not dismiss people because they "don't want to hear an answer"

Neutral, Agree and Strongly Agree polls are among the best model for social attitudes surveys.

As for the 100% point, well of course. Polls can be wrong. But polls are more than often right, unless there's a huge fluke in the figures as was the case in the 1992 General Election which predicted a Labour government but resulted in a parliamentary majority for John Major. Since then, weighting in polling has become much more accurate - but yes, there's still debate over weighting techniques (Survation, YouGov and Populus are all currently using different weights to measure Ukip support and we shall only know who has been correct at election time).