Unelected Jean-Claude Juncker nominated as next head of EU Commission

[-:Undertaker:-]

europeans.

There's no such thing as a Europe people, there's only such a thing as a European peoples.

Much in the same way as there wasn't a Soviet people: there were Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians etc. Or the Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia concepts.

[Chippiewill]

There's no such thing as a Europe people, there's only such a thing as a European peoples.

Much in the same way as there wasn't a Soviet people: there were Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians etc. Or the Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia concepts.

In the imaginary way there weren't soviet people.. because there were.

[-:Undertaker:-]

In the imaginary way there weren't soviet people.. because there were.

On paper they existed, down on the ground and in culture they did not.

You can create anything from laws and treaties, just look at Iraq and Syria. Doesn't make them a real and alive concept though.

[Chippiewill]

On paper they existed, down on the ground and in culture they did not.

Well if you want to be philosophical about it then these are all constructs we've invented so none of them exist.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well if you want to be philosophical about it then these are all constructs we've invented so none of them exist.

I'm not being philosophical about it, I'm describing the realpolitik situation of nation states and what they are.

False nation states such as the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Iraq only lasted through the use of force. Other than that, they [the people] didn't exist.

[Chippiewill]

I'm not being philosophical about it, I'm describing the realpolitik situation of nation states and what they are.

So what you're claiming is, there was no USSR?

[-:Undertaker:-]

So what you're claiming is, there was no USSR?

It [the artificial state] existed on paper and through force, but there never existed a Soviet people or a Soviet nation.

[Chippiewill]

It [the artificial state] existed on paper and through force, but there never existed a Soviet people or a Soviet nation.

Why?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Why?

Because the people there never felt or saw themselves as Soviet people because the Soviet concept was simply created out of thin air in the midst of a revolution rather than being formed over the many centuries as the Russian culture had been. To a degree the Russians, or at least some of them, perhaps did consider themselves Soviet, but that was simply as a way of the Russians hiding what the Soviet Union was: the forceful annexation of neighbouring states by Russia. The Polish still considered themselves Polish, the Czechs considered themselves Czech, and the Estonians as Estonians. A lot of Scottish nationalists would also say the same, that Britain was a concept created - or revived from Roman times - to hide what they view as the annexation of Scotland by the larger England in the Acts of Union.

Nationhood is a strange thing, but it exists just as I would volunteer (potentially my life) for my country in case of a great and just war, but wouldn't volunteer the same efforts (if any at all) for the French Republic or say Brazil simply because I don't feel French or Brazillian.

[Chippiewill]

So under that logic the scots should be allowed to vote in the general election since most of them don't identify as british.