Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union?

[alexxxxx]

..because what you do then, is you threaten them with trade wars by threatening to put taxes on their goods coming here, we have the commonwealth and the United States to turn to, Europe has nobody but itself to turn to.

Trade wars will not happen, does it happen with any other non-EU European nation?

The USA only cares about number 1. It has shown this with stupidly one-way treaties we have signed with them before. The commonwealth is pretty much defunct now, much of it undeveloped, small economies. The only ones with any real use are canada, australia, singapore and india (im not even sure the latter 2 are even in the commonwealth).

They are simple, if Europe needs us like we are told we need them, then we can still trade with Europe and co-operate, but it means we are not governed by Europe. You and other eurocrats always try to complicate the issue, the rest of the world does it - why can't we?

Because it won't be the same. We will simply not get the security of free and unrestricted trade. You can't deny that.

Not good enough.

I want my laws to be made by my government, my democratically elected government who I voted in based on their manifesto and promises/ideas. The United Kingdom did not vote for these people to make our laws, to tell us how loud our mp3s' can be, what colour our traffic lights can and cannot be, how big our fruit and veg is appropiate, what measurement system we use, what and how we trade.

You know that the last law you quoted there has been relaxed, the middle one has perfectly good reasons for existing (colourblind people), the first is just common sense.

I'm not sure whether you understand or not that we are in a recession and the housing market has been laying off worker after worker, company after company has gone bust because there are no jobs. I'm afraid leaving the EU doesn't stop us having a open-border policy to those who wish to work here, have you not heard of a visa?

By definition it does. Plus this recession will be over in a few months and growth will resume. 2 years down the line we will be eating up the unemployement line (unless the tories decide to cut public spending wayyy tooo early). Of course I've heard of a visa, but the fact is that this will stifle the movement of labour and will not be an open door. It will be a closed door with a key. A key you have to wait a few months to a year to recieve and which you may never recieve. And the other way round. This could encourage illegal immigration from the EU.

The former minister for Europe, Caroline Flint an MP didn't read the Lisbon Treaty yet she, just like you, is telling the British people they are too stupid to make a decision. How arrogant of you, so is that why we don't elect the EU commission because our poor mental skills would make us vote for the wrong person?

Direct democracy does what it says, its direct. Do you want the United Kingdom to be a part of the European Union? - SIMPLE 2 ANSWER QUESTION.

Do not insult the publics intelligence in this country by telling them they don't have the mental skills/understand what the European Union/Lisbon Treaty is. On your point about MPs', not party ever said in their manifesto that they would sign the United Kingdom up to the European Union, its been pushed down on us;

We NEVER voted to join the EU.

No, you can't be too stupid to vote in someone, but you can be too stupid to vote on a piece of legislation or treaty.

It's not about intelligence. It's about ignorance. Which is what alot of people are, including the old europe minister. I think it's disgusting that she didn't read it but that shouldn't be a reason for not resuming with this system.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The USA only cares about number 1. It has shown this with stupidly one-way treaties we have signed with them before. The commonwealth is pretty much defunct now, much of it undeveloped, small economies. The only ones with any real use are canada, australia, singapore and india (im not even sure the latter 2 are even in the commonwealth).

The United States and the United Kingdom still share more in common, even Charles De Gallue who was one of the people who started the European superstate that is being built said that the United Kingdoms future lies together with the United States. On the commonwealth, well yes and it should be looked at more carefully. I do not want a commonwealth which takes away Indian, British, Canadian etc sovereignty, I want a commonwealth which looks after eachothers interests within trading and afterall we share a lot with the commonwealth as it was the former Empire.

Because it won't be the same. We will simply not get the security of free and unrestricted trade. You can't deny that.

What security? - there is no threat from Europe and there should never be and would never be, friends with Europe but not govered by Europe. It is as simple as that. One currency and one economic system puts national interests at risk and especially in a downturn, hence why all major economies which were structured similar to that of the European Union all collapsed.

You know that the last law you quoted there has been relaxed, the middle one has perfectly good reasons for existing (colourblind people), the first is just common sense.

..no sorry it does not make common sense, common sense is the common sense to turn something down if it is too loud. You do not punish the majority for the minorities sake of being too stupid to turn the thing down, being told how loud our mp3s can be is not worth billions in cash every year, and more to the point since when did the British people ask for the unelected EU commission to make these petty rules for them?

By definition it does. Plus this recession will be over in a few months and growth will resume. 2 years down the line we will be eating up the unemployement line (unless the tories decide to cut public spending wayyy tooo early). Of course I've heard of a visa, but the fact is that this will stifle the movement of labour and will not be an open door. It will be a closed door with a key. A key you have to wait a few months to a year to recieve and which you may never recieve. And the other way round. This could encourage illegal immigration from the EU.

Visas do not stifle the movement of people, it depends on the individual government on the conditions for which visas are granted. We already have illegal immigration in the EU, of which all comes here - so whats the difference except that when independant we have the key to lock the door to those who we do not want.

No, you can't be too stupid to vote in someone, but you can be too stupid to vote on a piece of legislation or treaty.

Oh so we can vote for the government of 5 years, but we cannot vote on a piece of paper which gives more power to the European Union, which in turn is also unelected. I think the only thing that is stupid is the argument you are putting forward to avoid a referendum.

It's not about intelligence. It's about ignorance. Which is what alot of people are, including the old europe minister. I think it's disgusting that she didn't read it but that shouldn't be a reason for not resuming with this system.

The reason for not resuming with this federal system is because it was never voted in, it continues to surrender national sovereignty which goes against both the monarchy and government practice of this national, aswell as common sense.

We know you want a federal europe, but to deny the people a vote on a federal europe because they are 'too stupid' is pure arrogance. How about this; we have our referendum and obviously that would lead to a pull out, then we deny you a referendum later on on whether we should be members or not, because you are 'too stupid' - well thats how the British public have been treated.

Not nice on the other end of the stick is it.

[alexxxxx]

The United States and the United Kingdom still share more in common, even Charles De Gallue who was one of the people who started the European superstate that is being built said that the United Kingdoms future lies together with the United States. On the commonwealth, well yes and it should be looked at more carefully. I do not want a commonwealth which takes away Indian, British, Canadian etc sovereignty, I want a commonwealth which looks after eachothers interests within trading and afterall we share a lot with the commonwealth as it was the former Empire.

CdG was a ****. The UK is not the same as the USA culturally. Moreso, the majority of the commonwealth is not 20miles from the UK and can be accessed by train.

What security? - there is no threat from Europe and there should never be and would never be, friends with Europe but not govered by Europe. It is as simple as that. One currency and one economic system puts national interests at risk and especially in a downturn, hence why all major economies which were structured similar to that of the European Union all collapsed.

I meant security of free trade. The single market is a fundamental principle of the EU. This can never be removed. There has not been an economy like the EU ever... So I don't know how you're basing this on. The only economy like this is what the USA was like in the early stages.

Visas do not stifle the movement of people, it depends on the individual government on the conditions for which visas are granted. We already have illegal immigration in the EU, of which all comes here - so whats the difference except that when independant we have the key to lock the door to those who we do not want.

Yes they do. It takes time to get a visa. At the moment I can move to France tomorrow without a visa. I just have to sign a few papers confirming residence on the other end. Illegal immigrants 'all coming here,' what a load of tosh. I bet you've never been to italy where they are VERY prevelant. It's like the hypocrisy of some tabloids who say that immigrants come here only for our benefits system (which only in some circumstances they are allowed acess to) and then go on to complain they take up loads of jobs.

Oh so we can vote for the government of 5 years, but we cannot vote on a piece of paper which gives more power to the European Union, which in turn is also unelected. I think the only thing that is stupid is the argument you are putting forward to avoid a referendum.

The reason for not resuming with this federal system is because it was never voted in, it continues to surrender national sovereignty which goes against both the monarchy and government practice of this national, aswell as common sense.

We know you want a federal europe, but to deny the people a vote on a federal europe because they are 'too stupid' is pure arrogance. How about this; we have our referendum and obviously that would lead to a pull out, then we deny you a referendum later on on whether we should be members or not, because you are 'too stupid' - well thats how the British public have been treated.

Not nice on the other end of the stick is it.

The EU isn't unelected as the parliament can sack the comission (ie, the 'unelected bit').

I wouldn't expect a referendum on the other way. I'd expect a democractically elected parliament to do it... Plumbers are best at plumbing, bankers are best at banking, metalworkers are best at their trade and MPs are best at running the country.

[-:Undertaker:-]

CdG was a ****. The UK is not the same as the USA culturally. Moreso, the majority of the commonwealth is not 20miles from the UK and can be accessed by train.

The United States is the same as the United Kingdom culturally, we both shared culture openly and continue to do so, while Europe openly shunned the US from de Gallue to Chirac. The commonwealth may not be 20 miles away from the United Kingdom, but is independant and more importantly, has a bigger trading base with more potential (especially India).

We managed a Empire that spanned the globe two hundred years ago, please do not tell me that being futher away from India than France is a terrible problem, especially when taking into mind that we now have planes, super-ships and all other methods of transport which the victorians lacked.

I meant security of free trade. The single market is a fundamental principle of the EU. This can never be removed. There has not been an economy like the EU ever... So I don't know how you're basing this on. The only economy like this is what the USA was like in the early stages.

The economy of the Soviet Union was similar to that of the European Union, both disliked trading with others outside (proved by you pointing out how Europe would impose tariffs on the United Kingdom if it dared to leave the EU) and prefers to trade within itself.

Yes they do. It takes time to get a visa. At the moment I can move to France tomorrow without a visa. I just have to sign a few papers confirming residence on the other end. Illegal immigrants 'all coming here,' what a load of tosh. I bet you've never been to italy where they are VERY prevelant. It's like the hypocrisy of some tabloids who say that immigrants come here only for our benefits system (which only in some circumstances they are allowed acess to) and then go on to complain they take up loads of jobs.

Italy has now thrown out all of the crime ridden gypsies who were making Italians lives a misery, camps were being set up and Italy was in chaos a few months ago if you don't remember. Italy ignored the EU and threw them all out, just what we should be doing. It is simple what we want alex; immigration but controlled.

We want our key to our own front door and safe back.

The EU isn't unelected as the parliament can sack the comission (ie, the 'unelected bit').

The commission is not elected.
It is not democratic.

The European Union was not elected.
It is not democratic.

The 'parliament' of the Soviet Union also had the power technically to sack the top of the Communist Party, the Commission just like the CP holds the power aswell as being corrupt..

I found this from wikipedia, i've heard of it before but quite an interesting little fact about the European Union and its Commission;

In 2005, Nigel Farage, UKIP MEP requested that the European Commission disclose where the individual Commissioners had spent their holidays. The Commission did not provide the information requested, on the basis that the Commissioners had a right of privacy. The German newspaper Die Welt reported that the President of the European Commission, José Barroso had spent a week on the yacht of the Greek shipping billionaire Spiro Latsis. It emerged soon afterwards that this had occurred only a month before the Commission approved 10.3 million euros of Greek state aid for Latsis' shipping company.

I wouldn't expect a referendum on the other way. I'd expect a democractically elected parliament to do it... Plumbers are best at plumbing, bankers are best at banking, metalworkers are best at their trade and MPs are best at running the country.

Plumbers, bankers, metalworkers all make up the public. The public are best at making the decision because that is democracy, maybe you cannot see it just as many socialists before you couldn't; Lenin, Mao, Marx, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.. but that is democracy.

It is like myself, I am best at deciding if my iPod is low enough so that it doesn't damage my hearing, not some unelected eurocrat in Brussels on a six-figure salary.

[Ardemax]

are we still on about UKIP getting into power?

well they won't for some time, they're a one idea based party and that's pretty much it.

as for the Europe thing I thought it was our opinions? Not that if we disagree with undertaker, he will get to flame us.

not sure? :S

[-:Undertaker:-]

are we still on about UKIP getting into power?

well they won't for some time, they're a one idea based party and that's pretty much it.

as for the Europe thing I thought it was our opinions? Not that if we disagree with undertaker, he will get to flame us.

not sure? :S

We are on about the European Union as you know fully well, infact UKIP has only been mentioned once or twice in this thread. You yourself voted in the poll, so either you don't know what you are doing and are following what alex and co. do (as per usual) or you are trying to score points with 'smart' posts.

On Europe, alexxx debates his opinion, I may not agree with it but he backs most of it up and explains indepth his points, you on the other hand like to come into debates half way through and criticise me rather than my opinions, and when you make false statements I press you on them while you attempt to avoid them (like when you said the EU had prevented a war and when you stated that UKIP were a rascist party).

If you are going to get involved actually get involved properly, rather than hoping for alexxx and others to jump in all the time and save you.

[Ardemax]

We are on about the European Union as you know fully well, infact UKIP has only been mentioned once or twice in this thread. You yourself voted in the poll, so either you don't know what you are doing and are following what alex and co. do (as per usual) or you are trying to score points with 'smart' posts.

On Europe, alexxx debates his opinion, I may not agree with it but he backs most of it up and explains indepth his points, you on the other hand like to come into debates half way through and criticise me rather than my opinions, and when you make false statements I press you on them while you attempt to avoid them (like when you said the EU had prevented a war and when you stated that UKIP were a rascist party).

If you are going to get involved actually get involved properly, rather than hoping for alexxx and others to jump in all the time and save you.

*REMOVED*

you totally contradict yourself in that post

Edited by invincible (Forum Super Moderator): Please don't be rude to other forum members

[JACKTARD]

Yes, we should get the hell out. I think the EU would be useful for one thing: if there was a huge dispute against two European countries and war was to break out (like WWII). However, all European countries get along (pretty much so), so I doubt the next big war will be between two European countries.

I don't want the UK to EVER use the Euro as its currency - I am certain this will happen eventually if we stay in the EU. And I imagine many other British things will go down the drain.

my views exactly

[alexxxxx]

The United States is the same as the United Kingdom culturally, we both shared culture openly and continue to do so, while Europe openly shunned the US from de Gallue to Chirac. The commonwealth may not be 20 miles away from the United Kingdom, but is independant and more importantly, has a bigger trading base with more potential (especially India).

The similarities with culture between the UK and the USA stop with the language. That's simply the only thing we have in common. The UK is alot more left-wing than the USA in terms of social responsibility, economically. Our comedy is very different. When I watch US TV I have to sort of go into american-mode and some jokes are just not funny. The US are slaves to consumerism, something that hasn't quite taken grip in europe the same way. It's very ignorant to say our culture is the same as the USA because i know i'd get culture shock, infact it shocks me when i go there on holiday. The EU infact goes out of its way to protect cultural events by sponsering them in the social fund.

We managed a Empire that spanned the globe two hundred years ago, please do not tell me that being futher away from India than France is a terrible problem, especially when taking into mind that we now have planes, super-ships and all other methods of transport which the victorians lacked.

We no longer have an empire, we have maybe a 10th of the global influence we did back then. Technology has progressed, but the UK economy still outstrips the indian economy nominally.

The economy of the Soviet Union was similar to that of the European Union, both disliked trading with others outside (proved by you pointing out how Europe would impose tariffs on the United Kingdom if it dared to leave the EU) and prefers to trade within itself.

It was nothing like the EU economy.

Italy has now thrown out all of the crime ridden gypsies who were making Italians lives a misery, camps were being set up and Italy was in chaos a few months ago if you don't remember. Italy ignored the EU and threw them all out, just what we should be doing. It is simple what we want alex; immigration but controlled.

We want our key to our own front door and safe back.

The gypsies can be problematic, due to a certain number of members in their communities believing that breaking the law is somehow justified. I think ridding certain communities of crime and criminals is more effective than just moving them along.

The commission is not elected.
It is not democratic.
The European Union was not elected.
It is not democratic.

You could then say the same about the UK and France.

The house of lords is not elected
La sénate n'est pas elu
It is not democratic
The UK/French Governments were not elected
It is not democratic.

The 'parliament' of the Soviet Union also had the power technically to sack the top of the Communist Party, the Commission just like the CP holds the power aswell as being corrupt..

I found this from wikipedia, i've heard of it before but quite an interesting little fact about the European Union and its Commission;

In 2005, Nigel Farage, UKIP MEP requested that the European Commission disclose where the individual Commissioners had spent their holidays. The Commission did not provide the information requested, on the basis that the Commissioners had a right of privacy. The German newspaper Die Welt reported that the President of the European Commission, José Barroso had spent a week on the yacht of the Greek shipping billionaire Spiro Latsis. It emerged soon afterwards that this had occurred only a month before the Commission approved 10.3 million euros of Greek state aid for Latsis' shipping company.

That's true. I personally don't like jose manuel barroso, but it's a fact of life that this sort of things occur. This type of poor (almost sleazy) lobbbying occurs in the UK, USA (even more disgustingly in the USA) and probably most other developed democracies. The Parliament does have power to reject and accept, ammend european laws. The EU is not perfect and I would prefer that the comissioner is elected directly the public. But the way we do it now is not any less democratic.

Plumbers, bankers, metalworkers all make up the public. The public are best at making the decision because that is democracy, maybe you cannot see it just as many socialists before you couldn't; Lenin, Mao, Marx, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.. but that is democracy.

It is like myself, I am best at deciding if my iPod is low enough so that it doesn't damage my hearing, not some unelected eurocrat in Brussels on a six-figure salary.

I have to disagree.

MEPs earn the same as MPs. £61k, but they do recieve money to cover accomodation costs whilst in Brussels and Strasbourg, plus air fares.

[-:Undertaker:-]

*REMOVED*

you totally contradict yourself in that post

How do I contradict myself? - and this time, don't ignore my post, don't go off on another subject, dont change the subject - show me where I contradict myself.

The similarities with culture between the UK and the USA stop with the language. That's simply the only thing we have in common. The UK is alot more left-wing than the USA in terms of social responsibility, economically. Our comedy is very different. When I watch US TV I have to sort of go into american-mode and some jokes are just not funny. The US are slaves to consumerism, something that hasn't quite taken grip in europe the same way. It's very ignorant to say our culture is the same as the USA because i know i'd get culture shock, infact it shocks me when i go there on holiday. The EU infact goes out of its way to protect cultural events by sponsering them in the social fund.

We should sponser our own cultural insitutions rather than having a group of unelected european deciding it for us, we have little in common with Europe, Europe doesn't really like us and if we carry on this way then we will be saying goodbye to our military sovereignty. I may not agree with some wars we have been in, but I know if we carry on towards a european federal superstate then the British military will cease to have any form of independance. Europe is even more left than we are; its not accepted and we didn't wage a Cold War for 50 odd years to in the end be goverend by left wing europeans on the mainland.

We no longer have an empire, we have maybe a 10th of the global influence we did back then. Technology has progressed, but the UK economy still outstrips the indian economy nominally.
It was nothing like the EU economy.

We may not have an Empire, but as usual the left always points to this as a meaning for us to surrender ourselves to a superstate. The United Kingdom was the world player soley from 1700 - 1950, the United States is now the world power and was along with the USSR from 1945 - 1991. We do not have to be a massive power to be able to trade, we have the sixth largest economy in the world.

India is where the next world boom will take place once China itself is finished/near the end, India will have a bigger population than China in the future, a bigger economy and is a democracy. India does not demand that we be ruled by them to trade with them, the same with us.

On the Soviet Union; well you cannot have it both ways. Either accept that the United Kingdom could trade perfectly fine with the EU without being a member of the EU, or accept that the EU has a closed economy - which one is it.

The gypsies can be problematic, due to a certain number of members in their communities believing that breaking the law is somehow justified. I think ridding certain communities of crime and criminals is more effective than just moving them along.
You could then say the same about the UK and France.

They are all criminals, don't fool yourself over them. In parts of Liverpool where they moved in on fields, they robbed and the shops had to hire security just because of them. They make peoples lives a misery. It is not fair that in the name of some EU law that these scum are allowed to move in anywhere under the banner of human rights.

The house of lords is not elected
La sénate n'est pas elu
It is not democratic
The UK/French Governments were not elected
It is not democratic.

The House of Lords needs reform yes. The UK and French governments were elected. Even if the EU was elected, would you like to tell me who elected them to even exist in the first place? - nobody did.

That's true. I personally don't like jose manuel barroso, but it's a fact of life that this sort of things occur. This type of poor (almost sleazy) lobbbying occurs in the UK, USA (even more disgustingly in the USA) and probably most other developed democracies. The Parliament does have power to reject and accept, ammend european laws. The EU is not perfect and I would prefer that the comissioner is elected directly the public. But the way we do it now is not any less democratic.

You say you would want the Commissioner elected by the people, yet do not want the people to have a vote on whether they want to be a part of the EU - I thought direct democracy didn't work in your opinion?

I have to disagree.

Who are the public then in you're eyes? - are they the left wing, pro-EU minority who always seem to be listened to by the government?

MEPs earn the same as MPs. £61k, but they do recieve money to cover accomodation costs whilst in Brussels and Strasbourg, plus air fares.

The Commissioners of course, it is my opinion quite frankly and is true because of the number of pathetic laws and directives that get passed down that the parliament has no power and the Commission is the driving force, just like in the USSR when the CP ruled and the Soviet was a sham.