UK, France, and others preparing to attack Libya.

[xxMATTGxx]

Reports are coming in that the U.S Navy have fired Tomahawk missiles at Libyan air defences.

[xxMATTGxx]

Pentagon Official: Over 110 Tomahawk missiles from U.S., British ships and submarines struck Libyan targets.

The Ministy of Defence announces that a British submarine has fired a number of Tomahawk missiles at Libyan air defence targets.

[Marbian]

Undertaker why do you always turn threads into arguments?

Not everything is about money, if the Government wanted or needed money dont you think theyd just print some?

This is about morales, Gadaffi is a pig and you seem to think that we shouldnt get involved when he is killing his own citiizens.

Stop being pig ignorant.

---------- Post added 19-03-2011 at 06:55 PM ----------

Whoever -repd me at least have the balls to leave your name.

I just want to say to this person, well done. You have saved the world, with all the poor, with all the VAT rises, etc... What a great idea.. that no one has ever thought of.. they can print new money! Wow, you'll be famous tomorrow.

anyway, last time I was reading this thread, it wasn't so bad... has anyone checked the news in the last 30 minutes?... **** me LOL.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't wish to swamp the thread, but this is a really good piece by Peter Hitchens just published;

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

Why can't we just let the Libyans fight it out (...then make friends with the winners)

Politics seems to have become a sort of mental illness. We have no bloody business in Libya, and no idea what we hope to achieve there. We are daily told that we have no money to spare. We have just scrapped a large part of our Navy. Our Army is stuck in an Afghan war whose point nobody can explain. And now we have set out on a course that could drag us into a long, gory brawl in North Africa.

And yet, when the Prime Minister announces this folly he is praised. Why? Partly it is because we all watch too much TV. Its reports simplify, then exaggerate. Reporters, much like politicians, like to feel they are helping to make history, and get excited by subjects they knew nothing about until last Wednesday.

Before we know where we are, we are taking sides in quarrels we don’t understand. Who are the Libyan rebels? What do they want? Why do we love them so? I’ve no idea, and nor has Mr Cameron, as we discovered when he (yes, it was him, not poor William Hague) sent the SAS to see them and they were welcomed with pitchforks and mockery.

The only sensible policy in Libya is to wait and see who wins, and then make friends with them. If you think this heartless, you are of course right. Foreign policy is heartless. Nice countries end up being conquered or going bankrupt. But it may be no more heartless than our kindly interference. I pray that this episode ends quickly and cleanly. Perhaps it will. But we cannot know. What if our humanitarian bombs and missiles accidentally kill women and children (which is almost certain)? What if air attacks and distant shelling fail to stop Gaddafi’s forces? Will we then send in troops? Who knows? I don’t. The Prime Minister doesn’t.

Some of the longest wars in history started with small-scale intervention, for a purpose that looked good and achievable, and ended up ruining millions of lives. The Soviet takeover of Afghanistan in 1979 ended with countless innocents driven into refugee camps, and the collapse of the Soviet state itself. It also left Afghanistan as a worse snake pit than before.

Why are we suddenly so worried about Muammar Gaddafi? It’s fashionable just now to get very hoity-toity about him. But until recently many of the war enthusiasts were rather keen on him, for supposedly heeding the fate of Saddam and changing his behaviour. Liberal idealists might also consider that Gad¬dafi is one of the heroes of their hero Nelson Mandela (there is film on YouTube of a touching embrace between these two).

There’s no principle at stake here, or we would be bombing Bahrain too, and demanding the withdrawal of the Saudi troops who arrived there in such sinister fashion last Monday. But Bahrain’s the base of the U.S. 5th Fleet, so we won’t be doing that. And as I’ve said here before, this supposed objection to rulers killing their own people is not consistent. Sometimes – as in China, Bahrain and Syria – we’re happy to let them do it.

So why are we rattling the drums of war and fuelling up for a fight in a place where our national interests would be best served by staying out? If the Arab League members want to intervene, they’ve got plenty of weapons not currently being used to attack Israel. I can only conclude that our Government is historically ignorant, politically dim, immune to good advice and swollen with personal vanity.

[The Don]

Another pointless war which has nothing to do with morales, more so being a cover for the west which has been left exposed all of a sudden by the fact that we were the ones who have been keeping Gaddafi, Mubarak and Ben Ali in power and had continued to do so right upto the point when we thought they were close to being ousted - then we changed sides but the difference with Libya is that; we picked the wrong horse on the last race.

Meanwhile while we are on our 'moral crusade', we continue to support the Saudi Arabian regime which has just sent in a thousand+ troops into its neighbour Bahrain which is having troubles of its own, with the people wanting to overthrow the regime there or have consitutional reforms (did I mention we were and remain a key supporter of Bahrain, with the U.S. having military bases there?). The Ivory Coast is having troubles at the moment, yet no western intervention there nor in China which has put down every small protest with heavy hands and the list goes on and on.

The west will only ever attack regimes or governments which it knows it can beat via conventional warfare. Iraq under Saddam had little left of an army by 2003 and was a pushover, the same can be said for Gaddafi who never really had an army setup in the first place - Iran on the other hand (which the west does attempt to over-demonise) has a structured armed forces and would not go down without kicking and screaming. Iran also, does not kowtow to the United States and her allies hence why its such a thorn in the side of the United States and we must all be made to be fearful of Iran and this imaginary threat it poses. Because otherwise we'd look like, to put it simply, a gang of playground bullies - something which i'm afraid we are.

Time to close a vast majority of U.S. military bases of which it cannot afford (and yes the financial aspect is important, Great Britain has a debt of £7.9tn+ and the United States is over the $14tn mark) because before long America will find itself in the same position Britain found itself in during WW1/2 - overstretched, becoming involved in conflicts it did not need to become involved in. One medium sized war will finish the United States even if it 'wins' the war as Britain won WW2 but lost the most. Lets trade with people, be friends with people but not police the world.

For more on our hypocrisy in foreign affairs, this is just a small example concerning the current events in Libya;

Then again maybe i'm totally wrong, maybe Gaddafi has some of those invisible WMD that Saddam had.

Do you think it's right what Gaddafi is doing to libya's people? Don't change the subject or avoid answering the question, just answer with yes or no.

[Agnostic Bear]

Aww hell yes, I live for military action and democracy. Go western powers!

[xxMATTGxx]

I don't wish to swamp the thread, but this is a really good piece by Peter Hitchens just published;

You don't wish to but you do anyway, woot.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Do you think it's right what Gaddafi is doing to libya's people? Don't change the subject or avoid answering the question, just answer with yes or no.

No of course its not right - I was well aware and have been well aware of the nastiness of the Gaddafi regime for a long period now, whereas most people in support of this war have probably only heard of him in the past few weeks. But anyway here's a question for you; do you think what Bahrain, Zimbabwe, China, Burma, Ivory Coast, Saudi Arabia and Yemen have done/are doing to their subjects and citizens is right? I very much doubt you do, so whats the point you are trying to make?

You don't wish to but you do anyway, woot.

You mean like you do by posting news updates in one thread similar to the way a bot does, with no opinion given and when your opinion is challenged you simply ignore it and keep on posting more updates? Pot kettle black springs to mind. If you are in fully support of this war and believe it to be right, you should be able to reply to me and others and prove us wrong, I await a proper reply rather than sly little digs like the one you've just posted.

Anybody want to justify the wests stance on foreign affairs before we end up with more of our girls and boys returning in body bags?

[xxMATTGxx]

No of course its not right - I was well aware and have been well aware of the nastiness of the Gaddafi regime for a long period now, whereas most people in support of this war have probably only heard of him in the past few weeks. But anyway here's a question for you; do you think what Bahrain, Zimbabwe, China, Burma, Ivory Coast, Saudi Arabia and Yemen have done/are doing to their subjects and citizens is right? I very much doubt you do, so whats the point you are trying to make?



You mean like you do by posting news updates in one thread similar to the way a bot does, with no opinion given and when your opinion is challenged you simply ignore it and keep on posting more updates? Pot kettle black springs to mind. If you are in fully support of this war and believe it to be right, you should be able to reply to me and others and prove us wrong, I await a proper reply rather than sly little digs like the one you've just posted.

Well I post updates but I don't say "I don't wish to do this", like you did. I ignore you because I can't be bothered to waste my time replying back to your long posts, I hardly read your long posts from top to bottom either way.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well I post updates but I don't say "I don't wish to do this", like you did. I ignore you because I can't be bothered to waste my time replying back to your long posts, I hardly read your long posts from top to bottom either way.

My post was only a few lines to you, yet no reply - but lots of BOT posting from you via news sources. Seemingly, you can be bothered to look clever by posting little digs back... so you can be bothered, just I don't think you want to mainly because nobody so far has been able to justify western foreign policy.

Maybe Don will reply, we'll see.