US Presidential Elections 2012

[lawrawrrr]

Obama was the worst culprit. His were plain old attacks. No idea why you're trying to defend Obama when you yourself probably know very little about his politics and what he'll do going forward.

It wasn't him alone who mucked up. He flip-flopped, but the Republican Party itself helped him to lose. I can reply here more extensively of some other factors if you like.

Let me re-direct you to what Dan said earlier on here:



and this is exactly why. It's darn right foolish. You seem to be repeating the same point without backing yourself up.

Because I couldn't possibly know anything about American politics, I'm clearly that stupid and don't bother to educate myself before replying in a thread debating the result (or even just educating myself in general). It's not like I was actually in America watching the TV campaigns at all was it - which is exactly why I picked up on that more than anything else.

It's clear that Romney SIGNIFICANTLY harmed his chances at becoming President when the expose about the 'women in binders' came out. Obviously his moronic policies didn't exactly help but that was the really big thing that made a lot of Americans turn against him. I never said that everyone else was perfect, and I never said that Obama's adverts weren't attacking; but he wasn't the worst. He never even said anything in them that wasn't true, whereas Romney loves embellishing the truth and has a knack for telling some of the truth, rather than all of it.

You're also being extremely biased now; you're saying that the Republican party helped Romney to lose, but all the adverts and things were directly Obama's fault. The mistakes Obama made could also be blamed on the Democrats. End of the day, Romney isn't even in Senate, hasn't even been govenor of MA for a while; he's not as involved in the central politics of America as as presedential candidate should be. Like; Donald Trump running, effectively.

And I'm repeating my point? You haven't even MADE a point, all you're doing is laughing and disagreeing with whatever I say, calling it 'silly'.

[FlyingJesus]

I really hope that all these idiots going WOO OBAMA WON are simply ignorant of what he's actually been doing for the past 4 years. I hate ignorance but the alternative is that these people are genuinely evil

[lawrawrrr]

I really hope that all these idiots going WOO OBAMA WON are simply ignorant of what he's actually been doing for the past 4 years. I hate ignorance but the alternative is that these people are genuinely evil

Ignorant of the Health Care and Wall Street reforms? The death of the biggest terrorist threat and subsequent fading of the group (yes it's still around but it's nowhere near as much of a threat for now), not to mention other terrorist and threatening world leaders? The ending of the war in Iraq? Getting rid of Bush's idiotic torture policies? Supporting gay marriage laws and campaigning for rights? Boosting the automobile economy?

He even reduced government spending, lowered the unemployment rate, tried his best with the economy (lets face it we can't blame him solely for that but the US could be in SUCH a worse state right now).

Don't get me wrong, he's made mistakes, broken a few of his promises (what politician doesn't) but he's introduced a lot of long-term plans that simply can't just be noticed in the 4 year term.

[Grig]

Because I couldn't possibly know anything about American politics, I'm clearly that stupid and don't bother to educate myself before replying in a thread debating the result (or even just educating myself in general). It's not like I was actually in America watching the TV campaigns at all was it - which is exactly why I picked up on that more than anything else.

It's clear that Romney SIGNIFICANTLY harmed his chances at becoming President when the expose about the 'women in binders' came out. Obviously his moronic policies didn't exactly help but that was the really big thing that made a lot of Americans turn against him. I never said that everyone else was perfect, and I never said that Obama's adverts weren't attacking; but he wasn't the worst. He never even said anything in them that wasn't true, whereas Romney loves embellishing the truth and has a knack for telling some of the truth, rather than all of it.

You're also being extremely biased now; you're saying that the Republican party helped Romney to lose, but all the adverts and things were directly Obama's fault. The mistakes Obama made could also be blamed on the Democrats. End of the day, Romney isn't even in Senate, hasn't even been govenor of MA for a while; he's not as involved in the central politics of America as as presedential candidate should be. Like; Donald Trump running, effectively.

And I'm repeating my point? You haven't even MADE a point, all you're doing is laughing and disagreeing with whatever I say, calling it 'silly'.

Of course Romney himself had a contribution to his own demise. But the fact he had to satisfy various bases meant he had to flip-flop, whilst women were alienated in the party itself from some recent rape comments from a couple of party candidates. Then of course there is Obama's ability to get his base out, which is not directly his fault. Record Latino numbers and a drop in white voters is bad for the party as a whole. They won't win further elections until they reform.

As for policy as a whole, relating to your latest reply, Obama has been doing well in foreign policy. Yet, look at the unemployment rate, if you think this marginal dip is a big accomplishment, then you are very mistaken . Plus debt has been skyrocketing and you can only blame Obama for that.

Plus, the two agree on loads. Take your pick, Coke or Pepsi. As Tom mentioned, there is a lot of ignorance going around.

[lawrawrrr]

Of course Romney himself had a contribution to his own demise. But the fact he had to satisfy various bases meant he had to flip-flop, whilst women were alienated in the party itself from some recent rape comments from a couple of party candidates. Then of course there is Obama's ability to get his base out, which is not directly his fault. Record Latino numbers and a drop in white voters is bad for the party as a whole. They won't win further elections until they reform.

As for policy as a whole, relating to your latest reply, Obama has been doing well in foreign policy. Yet, look at the unemployment rate, if you think this marginal dip is a big accomplishment, then you are very mistaken . Plus debt has been skyrocketing and you can only blame Obama for that.

Plus, the two agree on loads. Take your pick, Coke or Pepsi. As Tom mentioned, there is a lot of ignorance going around.

He didn't HAVE to flip flop at all. He didn't have to make sexist, racist or homophobic comments, which he did on many occasions, and that's what lead to this 'flip flopping'. As a mormon, he was expected to tick certain 'boxes' to gain their votes; which is basically why he got such a high percentage of votes (considering the amount of extremist religious people there are in America). This time, they focussed a lot on getting the minority vote, which is probably why the White vote dropped (doesn't help that they are terrible at making sure people know their rights), but that doesn't mean that'll happen next time. They already have the minority seating in Senate, but still manage to get their candidate as president. I'm not sure where I was going with that point... lost my train of thought.

Thing is, with the economy, it's surprising the unemployment rate isn't a hell of a lot higher than it is. And debt in almost every country has skyrocketed over the last 5 (noticeably in the last 2 really) years. Obama's already implementing his new debt-reduction policy (within the next few weeks anyway), so we'll just have to see where that goes.

Coke and Pepsi are actually incredibly different so that's a really bad analogy. Yes there is a lot of ignorance, but it's not right to ASSUME someone is ignorant and shoot everything they say down.

[Grig]

He didn't HAVE to flip flop at all. He didn't have to make sexist, racist or homophobic comments, which he did on many occasions, and that's what lead to this 'flip flopping'. As a mormon, he was expected to tick certain 'boxes' to gain their votes; which is basically why he got such a high percentage of votes (considering the amount of extremist religious people there are in America). This time, they focussed a lot on getting the minority vote, which is probably why the White vote dropped (doesn't help that they are terrible at making sure people know their rights), but that doesn't mean that'll happen next time. They already have the minority seating in Senate, but still manage to get their candidate as president. I'm not sure where I was going with that point... lost my train of thought.

Thing is, with the economy, it's surprising the unemployment rate isn't a hell of a lot higher than it is. And debt in almost every country has skyrocketed over the last 5 (noticeably in the last 2 really) years. Obama's already implementing his new debt-reduction policy (within the next few weeks anyway), so we'll just have to see where that goes.

Coke and Pepsi are actually incredibly different so that's a really bad analogy. Yes there is a lot of ignorance, but it's not right to ASSUME someone is ignorant and shoot everything they say down.

Don't have time to address the other issues, but technically unemployment is higher as many people simply gave up and thus got removed from the 'people searching for jobs' and statistics which count them. In reality, it's much much higher.

[lawrawrrr]

Don't have time to address the other issues, but technically unemployment is higher as many people simply gave up and thus got removed from the 'people searching for jobs' and statistics which count them. In reality, it's much much higher.

If you're going to go into technicalities then this debate is all a bit moot. There's only one way to count the unemployment rate, if that's not good enough then there's basically no unemployment rate and there never has been. The ACTUAL RECORDED unemployment rate should be a lot higher with the way the economy is going.

[FlyingJesus]

Ignorant of the Health Care and Wall Street reforms?

Ahh yes, forcing people to buy government mandated healthcare regardless of whether you want or can afford it, what a saint.

The death of the biggest terrorist threat and subsequent fading of the group (yes it's still around but it's nowhere near as much of a threat for now)

al-Zawahiri is just as bad if not worse than Bin Laden, and al-Qaeda hasn't faded at all, it's just less reported on.

not to mention other terrorist and threatening world leaders?

I imagine you mean Gaddafi, whose ousting was the doing of his own people and was actually hindered by US interference.

The ending of the war in Iraq?

Took troops out of Iraq eventually yes, but drone attacks and random bombings in the East are massively prevalent under Obama - he's sent over 5 times as many attacks as Bush did, murders hundreds of civilians and then claims that they were military threats merely for being adult males, has a personal kill list which he writes himself, assassinated the 16 year old son of a US citizen who he'd already killed in a drone strike miles and miles away from any combat zone, has plans to invade Iran, funds and supports Israeli terrorists in their illegal war against Palestine and other neighbouring countries... but yeah he's totally peaceful.

Getting rid of Bush's idiotic torture policies?

Yeah we all remember the time he followed through on his promise to close Guantanamo right? Oh, that didn't actually happen? Whoops. Turns out in Guantanamo the laws on torture don't technically exist anyway and no-one detained there will ever get a chance to speak out, so the ban on "enhanced interrogation" is a moot point. He also reinstated the Patriot Act allowing wiretaps and all sorts of Big Brother technology to be legally used by the government to spy on whoever they like (or don't like), and signed the NDAA which means the US government can arrest and detain ANYONE indefinitely without access to a lawyer or trial.

Supporting gay marriage laws and campaigning for rights?

A flat out lie. In one interview he said that he doesn't see why two people in love shouldn't be allowed to marry and liberals went mad for it, but he has actually stated that he has no intention whatsoever of pursuing the issue of marriage equality, and he has NEVER actually campaigned for it. In fact, it's an issue he's changed his mind on a few times over his career, and has most of the time been opposed to it.

Boosting the automobile economy?

You mean continuing the loan which Bush wrote out.

He even reduced government spending

Which oddly enough is a Republican policy.

lowered the unemployment rate

Oh right.

tried his best with the economy (lets face it we can't blame him solely for that but the US could be in SUCH a worse state right now).

Don't get me wrong, he's made mistakes, broken a few of his promises (what politician doesn't) but he's introduced a lot of long-term plans that simply can't just be noticed in the 4 year term.

He has delivered on not a single one of his promises, other than to give Hope. He's saved entirely by the grace of being extremely charismatic and the complete ignorance of people who want to like him despite his many many flaws.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Most people on here are from the UK though and haven't followed the election so of course they are going to base their decisions on personality. Obama presidency hasn't made me think what an absolute idiot like I did for Bush, but if I was American and was voting, I would have followed the debates etc to make an informed decision.

So you hated Bush purely based on personality? or did you hate the Bush Presidency based on illegal wars, the trashing of civil liberties, drone bombings, bailouts, debt and so on? if so, then nothing has changed (and a bit of thinking would confirm this).

Anyone who questions or jokes about why windows don't open on passenger jets is going to lose.

Again, Obama has made similar gaffes (and thats without mentioning Biden) yet because Romney is Republican is and related to Bush etc then it's funny and stupid when he makes a mistake but not when Obama makes many.

Is this what we've come to?

Ignorant of the Health Care and Wall Street reforms?

Forcing people to buy healthcare is a good move? and being $17tn in debt, how is this being paid for?

The death of the biggest terrorist threat and subsequent fading of the group (yes it's still around but it's nowhere near as much of a threat for now), not to mention other terrorist and threatening world leaders?

That was actually the military, saying it was down to Obama would be like saying that the capture of Ian Huntley was down to Prime Minister Blair as opposed to the Police Force.

As for the terrorists, every time a drone bombing takes place Mr. Obama is creating many many more.

The ending of the war in Iraq?

As far as i'm aware, thousands of soldiers are in Iraq? he's put many more into Afghanistan as well as declaring war on Libya and drone bombing Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen. And you know the weapons he supplied to the 'rebels' in Libya? well they are now being used to wage war in northern Mali by al-Qaeda.

Getting rid of Bush's idiotic torture policies?

Isn't Guantamino Bay still open?

Supporting gay marriage laws and campaigning for rights?

The US Constitution is such that it oughtn't to matter what the President thinks of gay marriage. But then President Obama has little regard for the constitution and treats his office like an Imperial one, so that's no surprise.

Boosting the automobile economy?

I hope that wasn't a serious remark in regards to the bailouts of bankrupt (and still bankrupt) companies such as General Motors.

He even reduced government spending

You cannot be serious!?

lowered the unemployment rate

Check the real unemployment figures (and its the same here) rather than what they publish.

tried his best with the economy (lets face it we can't blame him solely for that but the US could be in SUCH a worse state right now).

Yeah all that printing of worthless money which is going to cause a currency crisis (and believe me, that will be severe).

Don't get me wrong, he's made mistakes, broken a few of his promises (what politician doesn't) but he's introduced a lot of long-term plans that simply can't just be noticed in the 4 year term.

Sounds like a list of excuses to me, but Romney would have done much the same as Romney is on record as supporting money tree healthcare, supporting corporate bailouts for bust business, supporting more war etc.

Edit: ah i've just see FlyingJesus has done a much better job than me, it would be best to reply to him as opposed to mine.

[Grig]

If you're going to go into technicalities then this debate is all a bit moot. There's only one way to count the unemployment rate, if that's not good enough then there's basically no unemployment rate and there never has been. The ACTUAL RECORDED unemployment rate should be a lot higher with the way the economy is going.

So you're denying these people ever exist. Because they do and in numbers. You have basically tried to simplify an issue, which economists take into account.

Then you have contradicted yourself by first defending Obama's handling of the economy and now attacking it. I bid you ado with my "moot" debate arguments :rolleyes:.