State of Management, Hiring, moderation etcetera

[Nixt]

I've been looking through the rules and I cannot really find fault with them, it seems that perhaps moderators are looking specifically for rule breaking and thus make the rules seem tighter. It is also possible that the moderator guidelines are poorly worded (Although I could not tell since I am not a moderator) perhaps they could also be revised as well as the rules? It does not appear that the rules are to blame but merely the interpretation of the rules.

Also, if not already, newer members should get off lighter than older members who are more knowledgeable of the rules.
And, if rules are ever changed perhaps a PM to all users may be useful, if I leave the forums for a few months and talking about Jin becomes a bannable offence I would like to be notified since I do like to reference Jin in every post .

I think that you may be right there. The problem is not with the rules, which myself and Oli wrote in order to make them easier to understand and clearer and what is / is not against the rules. Rather, the issue is the way in which they are applied or interpreted. I did ask Saurav if I could post his PM down to a T, but he's gone offline so instead I will transfer some of his ideas here and indicate my own opinion on how I feel they should be approached, and see what you guys think!

Regarding the "leaving moderating to the moderators" rule - this seems to be applied too harshly in some situations, for example when someone says "already posted - link here" in Habbo News and Rumours. I think this rule should only be applied where someone interrupts a discussion by say, quoting a rule breaking post and doing the whole "TUT! YOU WERE RUDE TO ANOTHER MEMBER". Posting "oh this has already been posted - xx" is essentially a way of helping members and maybe should not be penalised.

However I do think, if a member were to post "already posted - xx" and someone replies "yeah it's already been posted", the second poster should be approached for pointless posting. What do you guys think?

Regarding the bumping rule, that is being altered slightly on Sunday so as to allow certain threads to be bumped where someone is adding necessary and relevant information and is not doing so pointlessly / unnecessarily. This will be expanded on come Sunday.

The pointless posting rule could also be reviewed (and is being reviewed). The first thing James has looked at is the way in which the "one word" rule is applied and we will be altering this slightly to make it more fair. Essentially we will be stopping people posting threads that can only really justify one word answers rather than targeting people who reply to them.

I think the key problem is actually that some of the forum specific rules have become too draconian, rather than the main body of rules. Notable examples are:

Graphics rule 1 - I hate the way members aren't allowed to say "I really like this, it's awesome +rep!" I feel this rule is far too harsh. Members should be penalised for saying "Good alt" but not for clearly and fairly expressing their appreciation for an alt or graphic. I do think they should be penalised however, if they just say "this is really bad". It's unfair and rude to outrageously criticise without backing that up (some people in feedback should perhaps take note of this point!) but I don't think it's wrong to say you like something, as long as you say it in earnest!

Saurav has also mentioned the advertising rule in the spam forum. Essentially disallowing you from posting such things as "HI I'M DJING ON SOMEHABBORADIO.COM TUNE IN". I don't think it is so much a problem with the rules, rather a problem with the way it is applied. Shameless advertising should be dealt with but not necessarily casual linking.

I do think we have a strong Moderation team but I do think we need to stress the importance of individually evaluating the situation and encouraging an element of independence! I think this is lacking and some Moderators are too strictly following the usernote > warning > infraction process and not taking into account the discretion they are allowed. It is something that we need to look into.

Regarding new members, whenever someone commits their first rule break they are contacted with a friendly PM telling them that it is against the rules to do x, please bear this in mind. A random example of a recently issued warning PM:

Hey,

Just a quick PM to draw your attention to this post: http://www.habboxforum.com/showthrea...98#post6681998, in which you appear to accuse someone of scamming.

Unfortunately even if this is true, it is breaking HabboxForum rules to accuse others of scamming, hacking or any other forum of illegal activity.

Please avoid this in future so that no further action has to be taken.

Thanks

MODERATOR

So, it's quite friendly and doesn't seem too harsh. At least, it doesn't seem too harsh to some of the older members who remember the days of hardcore infractions for everything you do wrong, including double posting! I would propose the following change - when a new and unfamiliar member breaks the rules, rather than PMing them with a "You broke this rule" we send them a personal, friendly PM saying something along the lines of:

Hi NEW MEMBER'S NAME,

My name is Nixt and I am a Forum Moderator here at Habbox :-). I noticed you were a relatively new member so just thought I'd pop by and say hi! Also I thought I'd suggest reading the forum rules - just to keep yourself out of trouble when you're here. Note this rule in particular: RULE BROKEN. Keep those in mind and you can't go far wrong!"

More of a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" PM rather than the strict formalities. This will only apply to the first ever rule break committed and thereafter the normal process will apply. What do you think? Perhaps I am being too wishy washy here, or perhaps I am not suggesting enough? Opinions welcomed!

Apparently you are unable to read or comprehend simple English, you accept feedback but still maintain a dictatorship. There is no voting on anything that you don't want to have voted on. If you want it you get it, there's no user input, it just happens. A prime example of guess what? A totalitarian dictatorship.

Okay, for a start I can comprehend English very well thank you; there is no point in becoming all condescending when I am clearly perfectly capable of understanding what you are trying to say. If you want Management to pay attention to, and reply to, your feedback, at least try and demonstrate it in a way that doesn't make it sound as if you are lecturing to children. Because that does nothing but piss me off.

Habbox is not a totalitarian dictatorship. Users get a huge amount of input - a significant amount more than they ever did under previous management teams. However, it is not a democracy. It never has been, it never will be. I fail to see how this would make Habbox a better place either. I rarely see any website that runs as a democracy, and I don't see why Habbox should be any different.

The users can't veto things they don't want, they don't get a vote for new features unless management explicitly says "we're not sure, you can decide for us". "BUT THAT'S NOT TOTALITARIAN!" oh wait. it is. It's just you're unwilling to see that at the end of the day that's what's happening.

If members don't like something then we will look into changing or removing it. They don't have absolutely veto, no and if one unhappy member out of many came along and said "x is ****, I don't like it" we're certainly not about to change things on the basis of what he says, because we need to try and appeal to the majority audience. However if enough members come together and say, oh actually this is a actually doing us a lot of damage / making us want to leave / need changing - we look into doing that. There are countless examples of this in the past, and as I say the most recent is the situation regarding donations which we are looking into reforming.

Of course there are some situations where we will continue to try something and Management reserve the right to do this (we manage the site after all) but we will always justify this. The members get an awful amount of input into everything that goes on at Habbox - just because you don't normally involve yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not going to post an announcement and say "EVERYONE - I'M GOING TO CHANGE THIS - Y / N?" each time I alter rules or policy, such bureaucracy would see the site moving at a snail's pace. But if you think something needs changing, contact those relevant or feed back on it and it will sure as hell happen.

VOTES ON EVERYTHING NON COSMETICAL
Most (if not all) things should be voted on, from new forums being created to reshuffles and hiring of managers. Nothing should be done behind closed doors, that just makes the users who didn't get a say and wanted one more pissed off.

Almost every change is made as a result of member feedback. As I said we are not about to hold a vote on every little thing we change. Do you see other sites doing this? Do you see companies doing this (which run in much the same way as us, or any other fansite?) We accept feedback, we make changes based on what the members want, but we're not going to ask for a referendum on whether or not we should change the wording of a rule.

Criticism:
Users should be allowed to fairly criticise whomsoever they please in public. It's their right to do so and by blocking said right all you do is enrage users and push your own reputations down the crapper (quite rightly, might i add) for ignoring their attempt to voice their opinion publicly.

You are free to criticise us (what have most people been doing all along this thread) but when people start victimising individuals unfairly it will be dealt with. In the same way if I posted a thread in spam and posted "that Agnostic Bear is such a tiresome bore" it would be dealt with as necessary. Broad criticism is fine, but unfair targeting is not.

So yes, this forum is still a totalitarian dictatorship.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

[Callum.]

Not going to lie, after being here 5 years, I think this is a big low point.

[Agnostic Bear]

Okay, for a start I can comprehend English very well thank you; there is no point in becoming all condescending when I am clearly perfectly capable of understanding what you are trying to say. If you want Management to pay attention to, and reply to, your feedback, at least try and demonstrate it in a way that doesn't make it sound as if you are lecturing to children. Because that does nothing but piss me off.

Then be pissed off. Being pissed off happens, deal with it. It's not hurting you, it's hurting the community.

Habbox is not a totalitarian dictatorship.

Yes it is. Please read the wikipedia article 20 times. If you still feel it's not, please read it 40 times, adding 20 for each time you feel it's still not a totalitarian dictatorship. It is.

Users get a huge amount of input - a significant amount more than they ever did under previous management teams. However, it is not a democracy. It never has been, it never will be. I fail to see how this would make Habbox a better place either. I rarely see any website that runs as a democracy, and I don't see why Habbox should be any different.

So you're willing to just stick it out and watch as the community flails into the ground because the management are nigh on crazy for power and control, ignoring users and pushing the forum to the brink of extinction. Good job you. Democracy would save the forum as it would force the management to give up power and return the forum to a nice place where we can chat and get along, not sit around and hope that we don't get infracted for every little thing.

So go ahead, keep it as a (wait for it) totalitarian dictatorship. See how that works out for you with the current regime of INFRACT FOR EVERYTHING DON'T LET ANYTHING SLIDE PUNISH PEOPLE NOT GIVE THEM FORGIVENESS.

If members don't like something then we will look into changing or removing it.

Only if the powers that be don't mind! If they want to say no BAM it'll not happen (A prime example of what happens in a totalitarian dictatorship!)

They don't have absolutely veto, no and if one unhappy member out of many came along and said "x is ****, I don't like it" we're certainly not about to change things on the basis of what he says, because we need to try and appeal to the majority audience. However if enough members come together and say, oh actually this is a actually doing us a lot of damage / making us want to leave / need changing - we look into doing that. There are countless examples of this in the past, and as I say the most recent is the situation regarding donations which we are looking into reforming.

Nope. You only listen if the popular members (or should i say those with enough backing to cause a ruckus) decide to post. This isn't a jab at those people, they have every right to put their point across, they just shouldn't have a greater levy than those who are less known.

The forum management are in a perpetual state of "will they be a problem if we ignore them? no? ok ignore them."

Of course there are some situations where we will continue to try something and Management reserve the right to do this (we manage the site after all) but we will always justify this.

What's the justification for the Welcome Committee still existing? Seems like a very large time wasting activity that could be better spent acceding the changes needed to stop the community dissent.

The members get an awful amount of input into everything that goes on at Habbox - just because you don't normally involve yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not going to post an announcement and say "EVERYONE - I'M GOING TO CHANGE THIS - Y / N?" each time I alter rules or policy, such bureaucracy would see the site moving at a snail's pace. But if you think something needs changing, contact those relevant or feed back on it and it will sure as hell happen.

Such bureaucracy done in the right manner would keep it going at a good pace (albeit slower to make changes to the forum), but what does that matter? The main thing about a forum is content not policies, they should be second place to promoting good, well thought out content.

But then again you're all too busy worrying about getting every little bit of policy right. Why not man up and just say "use your common sense". I do believe a certain government is doing that and it's working wonders.

Almost every change is made as a result of member feedback.

Except those that aren't. Which are a lot of them.

As I said we are not about to hold a vote on every little thing we change. Do you see other sites doing this?

Yes actually! I have voted in a few changes on various forums and such over the years (a few times on 4chan, a few times on Otaku-Studios (I'm an admin there don't you know, and forum activity is ~*skyrocketing*~)

Do you see companies doing this (which run in much the same way as us, or any other fansite?)

2 things:
1) Yes. Microsoft are doing this. They don't make it that obvious but they take in a huge (huge) amount of feedback and it actually gets listened to and implemented. Please see: Windows 7, Internet Explorer 9, Windows Live *.

2) I forgot the second thing because I was busy writing the other bit of the post whilst watching The Breakfast Club.

We accept feedback, we make changes based on what the members want, but we're not going to ask for a referendum on whether or not we should change the wording of a rule.

Congratulations you've totally missed the point. The wording of a rule is just jargon. Changing the meaning of the rule so that it might affect a user differently should be voted on. It'd promote a good distribution of the new rules to the user and like a stack of dominos in space, gently ease rule breaking to a slower, more relaxed pace.

You are free to criticise us (what have most people been doing all along this thread) but when people start victimising individuals unfairly it will be dealt with.

Nope. If one moderator bullies a user or does something hilariously wrong and someone calls them out on it in a fair way, they get in trouble. So unfairly is just "complain about our staff and you're ******, buddy!"

In the same way if I posted a thread in spam and posted "that Agnostic Bear is such a tiresome bore" it would be dealt with as necessary. Broad criticism is fine, but unfair targeting is not.

Now see if you posted a thread "Agnostic Bear's framework is wrong, here are suggestions" and then proceeded to post something about me and my imaginary framework, they'd get rammed so hard up the ass they'd end up on neptune for just mentioning someone else. Double standards.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

I don't desire revolution in a violent way, I desire a peaceful change to a way where this forum would prosper.

[nvrspk4]

So I guess I'll start off with the most distressing thing. Why am I a "weird" fantasy? A fantasy, yes, I'll accept (after all, I'm told that I populate the dreams of many HabboxForumers, primarily GommeInc). But "weird"? Really?

Moving on topic, not to dismiss this argument or anything but the:

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'

Card tends to be pulled out every few months. I think that over the years, Habbox management has always been moving forward in this regard. Habbox management has always been getting more and more transparent and responsive, sometimes at quicker rates than others, but always moving forward. It was a huge step for (A)GMs to reply to threads, now it's pretty much a given. The fact that you will always get an (A)GM reply to your threads means that they're obviously listening, and the fact that they're willing to debate shows quite clearly that they are listening to your feedback and evaluating it. They're not necessarily always going to agree with it, but they're definitely listening.

It's also said from time to time that even though they may listen, management shuts down everything. Something I've learned is that a large portion of how you get things to work here is by presenting them right. The ideas that succeed tend to be posted constructively, and backed by concrete examples. When you post in an attack on the staff or the management, not a constructive statement but more of a strong-worded attack, it often forces (A)GMs into a defensive position and makes it very difficult for them to try to meet you halfway, which they absolutely do. I've definitely seen this management team try to do that.

Another thing that happens from time to time is a period of some realignment within Habbox. Sometimes there are big changes, and they tend to happen during management changes, but sometimes they change mid-management. It does happen from time to time, and I can't say if it is appropriate now or not, but the change isn't necessarily a change in management, just a change in policy. And yes that does happen, but this usually isn't how it occurs. Usually it occurs with some positive consensus building, and people coming together over an idea to build it together constructively, instead of fighting at each other.

There have been times that good ideas had to wait several months simply because members made the mistake of taking a good suggestion and making it really destructive criticism and turning the argument personal and individual-based. In one specific example I'm thinking of, the forum manager had to defend the decision as a part of defending himself and his team, and as such was really forced to place himself against suggestions that he probably could have compromised on. Instead, the changes waited until the entire vitriol of the issue died down and it could be brought back up without being reminiscent of the old fight. An entire idea that could have benefited the forum died because people couldn't be mature or suggest it rationally.

As far as what should be done, though I disagree with his ideas (and I'm not going to jump into the debate about his ideas itself because I'm not involved enough to be an informed participant) I do have to commend Agnostic Bear for his posts, primarily his initial posts. He details what it is he finds wrong with the forum, and offers constructive solutions to fix it. On that note though, AB I do think you're getting a little personal with your posts and are making it a little bit of an attack. I think you're definitely on the right track with how to get ideas across, some things to tweak, and personally I disagree with some of your ideas, but I'm also not around enough to give an informed opinion

Just my two cents, more on the nature of effecting change around HxF than what should actually be changed.

[-Nick]

I agree with u garion

[Grig]

The problem at the moment is the inability to take risks and try innovation. Whenever someone proposes this, it gets crushed by certain members of general management, I'm not going to play a name and blame game because that'll be unfair. At the moment, Habbox is still working on a similar model of 2007 and it needs to come from the blast from the past with a massive re-vamp starting from the sites and ending with a reform of department and management structure, as there needs to be a move forward into something more compact, like other fansites have. To be fair, other fansites are ahead of the game, ClubHabbo is starting to generate more hits than Habbox and HFFM isn't that far behind. It's time to step up and work on making Habbox the king it once was, it was too much reliance that people thought Habbox would always be this super power fansite, but sadly those fays have vanished and it's time to put that blood, sweat and tears in again like in the past Sierk and co. did.

[Robbie]

The problem at the moment is the inability to take risks and try innovation. Whenever someone proposes this, it gets crushed by certain members of general management, I'm not going to play a name and blame game because that'll be unfair. At the moment, Habbox is still working on a similar model of 2007 and it needs to come from the blast from the past with a massive re-vamp starting from the sites and ending with a reform of department and management structure, as there needs to be a move forward into something more compact, like other fansites have. To be fair, other fansites are ahead of the game, ClubHabbo is starting to generate more hits than Habbox and HFFM isn't that far behind. It's time to step up and work on making Habbox the king it once was, it was too much reliance that people thought Habbox would always be this super power fansite, but sadly those fays have vanished and it's time to put that blood, sweat and tears in again like in the past Sierk and co. did.

Insert generic comment about "v6" here

[Recursion]

I really cba to read all this long posts, in short TL;DR. But I have to agree with the OP and whilst I think we do need changes to be made, you can't really shoot Jamesy for any problems, he's only just taken on the role as Forum Manager, give him a chance. BUT I do think the actual (co-)owner should take a more active role... Jin has done nothing noticable in the past year.

Also, with some of the comments above @ Nixt, look at the Tapatalk idea, it takes no forum resources up to implement it, it is literally 1 line of code and an account signup at tapatalk.com to introduce an addon that would actually get some use out of users for once, and it didn't happen. Ever, why? Jin said no.

This forum is turning towards the crapper if I'm honest.

[Martin]

I really cba to read all this long posts, in short TL;DR. But I have to agree with the OP and whilst I think we do need changes to be made, you can't really shoot Jamesy for any problems, he's only just taken on the role as Forum Manager, give him a chance.

Agreed with this. I don't think things can suddenly become perfect, it requires time and gradual changes to make things work. James is doing a fantastic job already and has only been in the role a couple of months himself and it does take time for a new manager to assess things and weigh up what needs sorting out etc.

In regard to the rules, I think there are certainly some changes which can be made, and I'm sure they will. There are certain aspects of the rules that are more relaxed these days than they were last year and I think gradually it's getting better with less warnings etc being given out. I think the moderation is quite friendly in many ways, and members are generally treated with respect from what I can see.

I think managers do try and listen to members to an extent and many of the updates on the forum especially have come from suggestions by members. The amount of feedback threads in which have been resolved far outweighs the unanswered complaints.

As far as I see it, the members of the forum should have a certain amount of input into these things, since they're the ones keeping the forum going essentially, however it must also be remembered that managers do put an enormous amount of time into planning things, dealing with their staff and other jobs to improve on quality of the services we offer as a site.

There are plans in place for future things to draw in new members, keep older members satisfied and so forth, however I do agree more effort could perhaps be put in to making these things happen sooner. I think at the moment it's a case of a lot of suggestions/complaints coming at the same time, and naturally it will take a while for everything to get sorted out. The newsletter ideas sound great, and this is something which will tighten the community element, making newer members see us as a happy community. Some of the complaint threads, whilst offering great feedback- can sometimes create an unpleasant atmousphere.

From here I think we just need to really put a lot of effort into ensuring we are continuously working on new developments whilst maintaining a good current standard at the same time. In basic, things need to improve yes, however it can't all be done at once. Feedback like this from members is always very useful in determining what members want to see from the site, and from what I can see- the majority of the time members do get features/ideas they request and we do our best to ensure the sites are up to quality.


At the end of the day, I think managers care about the forum/site as much as everyone else and of course we want things to improve and be at their best too. Managers wouldn't be in their roles if they didn't have this passion, however when taking members feedback into consideration I do agree it should definitely play a part in what decisions are made in terms of new additions and quality of the services we offer.

[Recursion]

To be honest, here's how I see it. The forum isn't gaining all that many new members, the older members are sticking around (just look at the Tech section, most people there have been around for years) and growing up, but the forum isn't growing at the same rate in terms of rules and morals.

I know this is a Habbo forum but it is one of the best forums I've come across in terms of community spirit, here you can actually build a reputation for yourself.