Complaints Forum

[Catzsy]

Me or someone else? I think the forum should be removed, it's purpose doesn't exist as it does exactly what the Queries/Questions forum should be - and in some cases, is - doing. With the forum closed you'd get more activity in this forum, and any boring queries sent off to the queries forum. I honestly do not see why the complaints forum exists, when there are literally no complaints and the style they're written in is exactly the same as the feedback forum and the queries forum, except you lack any real feedback and what the community want to say.

Anybody who needs guidance I guess. I cannot see you having a problem with
knowing what and where to post it though.

Okay I see your point about them mostly being queries but they are not moved there - the members post them there. We have no tools to move them to queries so can't help there. I also don't think that complaints should be on view either. I can't think of anywhere in the real world where complaints are made public. I do not think there is any restriction on members being able to say what they want to say, within the rules. I would say that is more open in respect of that than it ever was - I can remember a certain senior member *cough* being banned for doing just that but luckily sense was seen.

[Ajthedragon]

Maybe have Public and Private complaints forums?

that way it's the user choice.

[Inseriousity.]

Often queries can be interpreted as a complaint hence the many queries in the complaints forum. Someone asking where their VIP is for example just the same as a customer complaining why their meal hasn't come in a restaurant. Sometimes I wish that people would just PM me as sometimes it's just a misunderstanding (why hasn't my rep come for example is a common one because the number changes and people often don't notice) but everyone has a right to complain.

I think it's a lot better public as often people may have the same problem/criticism. I do think the previous suggestions (PM the user who made the complaint to add yours, PM the management member involved to include yours or +rep the user who complained) are more 'cleaner' ways of adding your point to the discussion without having to ruin the flow of the complaint.

[The Don]

Not precisely, no - as Matt said if you want to add to a complaint you can either make a new one, PM the member of Management for a direct response or I guess you could even PM the complainant and tell them to add certain bits.

The majority of complaints don't need more than one person complaining and for reasons stated by Catzsy and others the complaints forum will remain a one-to-one thing.

But the issue with creating a new thread based around the same topic in feedback will get moved to complaints and/or deleted as there is already a thread on it. I don't think anyone has yet given a decent enough reason for others not to be able to comment in the complaints section.

[Hecktix]

But the issue with creating a new thread based around the same topic in feedback will get moved to complaints and/or deleted as there is already a thread on it. I don't think anyone has yet given a decent enough reason for others not to be able to comment in the complaints section.

I've given a decent enough reason and that's because it's only a minority of complaints others would need to reply to and in other cases people would reply and it would cause a lot of trouble and piss a lot of people off. There has been a viable solution put forward therefore I suggest that's used.

[The Don]

I've given a decent enough reason and that's because it's only a minority of complaints others would need to reply to and in other cases people would reply and it would cause a lot of trouble and piss a lot of people off. There has been a viable solution put forward therefore I suggest that's used.

It's hardly a minority, i've seen more than enough complaint threads that I fully agree with, and other people in this thread have said the same. maybe an option to stop public responses when posting in that section? that way everyones happy...

[GommeInc]

Anybody who needs guidance I guess. I cannot see you having a problem with
knowing what and where to post it though.

Okay I see your point about them mostly being queries but they are not moved there - the members post them there. We have no tools to move them to queries so can't help there. I also don't think that complaints should be on view either. I can't think of anywhere in the real world where complaints are made public. I do not think there is any restriction on members being able to say what they want to say, within the rules. I would say that is more open in respect of that than it ever was - I can remember a certain senior member *cough* being banned for doing just that but luckily sense was seen.

Of course many aren't moved there, but you may as well stop people posting queries in that forum. Seems more suitable to do that than keep a forum which isn't used for its purpose, it looks scruffy Any one-to-one complaints (or complaints that only effect an individual), should probably be kept to PM or the private forums. The rest, where all users will be effected, may as well be posted here - removing the forum would encourage users to post their feedback here, their queries in the Queries forum and one-to-one complants in the complaints forum (or PM). Infact, maybe I could suggest having each competition/event thread with a link to PM the event/competition manager or staff who made that competition? It would make the staff seem more approachable, and the PM system is there for a reason.

Often queries can be interpreted as a complaint hence the many queries in the complaints forum. Someone asking where their VIP is for example just the same as a customer complaining why their meal hasn't come in a restaurant. Sometimes I wish that people would just PM me as sometimes it's just a misunderstanding (why hasn't my rep come for example is a common one because the number changes and people often don't notice) but everyone has a right to complain.

I think it's a lot better public as often people may have the same problem/criticism. I do think the previous suggestions (PM the user who made the complaint to add yours, PM the management member involved to include yours or +rep the user who complained) are more 'cleaner' ways of adding your point to the discussion without having to ruin the flow of the complaint.

Bit in bold - They're still queries, not complaints. That's like saying a cat that's wearing a prostitutes clothing is a prostitute or should be interpreted as one. It isn't and it's wrong, just like interpreting obvious queries as complaints

And no-one wants to PM, they may have a valid point that may change the outcome of the complaint, which is useful. You want all feedback, from everyone who is involved - you make a discussion. Holding it in a private forum is useless.

And since when do people get pee'd off if someone comes into their feedback thread? If people are pointless posting tell them to stop posting. I've never seen an example of this, and if that's the case, PM if it obviously doesn't involve everyone. If a complaint is made about a particular part of the forum (let's say, the Complants Forum), then you need to find who supports them or who doesn't, what's the point keeping it one-to-one? The member making the thread could be a complete idiot who doesn't understand a word they are saying and is merely talking for themselves and not the community

[Inseriousity.]

I never said they weren't queries lol "hence the many queries in the complaints forum" Your cat analogy makes no sense with this because complaints are completely subjective. If someone wanted to add their thoughts to the complaint, they could PM. If they don't want to, they're obviously not that bothered about it after all then. The problem with feedback threads is that they often go away from the point naturally and move onto another topic of discussion to criticise. It's far cleaner to keep it one-to-one to keep the original complaint intact.

[Hecktix]

It's hardly a minority, i've seen more than enough complaint threads that I fully agree with, and other people in this thread have said the same. maybe an option to stop public responses when posting in that section? that way everyones happy...

There's agreeing with a complaint and there's the need to add your opinion - these are two different things and this could cause trouble, not only for the thread starter but for those dealing with the complaint - sometimes you only need one viewpoint on a complaint to act upon it.

Inseriousity's post covers the rest quite well.

[nvrspk4]

Hey,

Let me start by backtracking and withdrawing the majority of my previous post. What I meant to say was in there...somewhere...but I said it badly. I had to think on it for a few minutes to be able to actually classify it. So let me take a second shot at this:

The Complaints forum is different from feedback in two ways:

1) It can be used for individual issues/question that don't pertain to the greater forum
2) It is used to question situations where policy is violated, but NOT when policy should be changed.

When people are lobbying for policy to be changed then obviously the Feedback forum is the right place to do so. One caveat I should make is that members can choose to post appeals to change policy in Complaints if they want to speak directly to General Management and only are really seeking a reply from General Management. If they do so, that is their choice and there are very few situations where it would not be permitted.

[Those with TL : DR Syndrome can read up to here. Below are justifications/further explanations for the above]

Now, why do you need the Complaints forum (in the format of only thread starter and management can reply) for reasons 1 and 2?

1) Individual Question - A user may have a question for, or need something done by the management team but may not know who to go to or any member of General Management could deal with their issue, so they post in this forum, because other users' replies would only be able to direct them where to get help, instead of being able to give help (admittedly the "Password" thread does not fit this, it was posted in the wrong forum as Hecktix noted, but it require a one sentence response which took as much effort as moving it, so no harm IMO).

2) Policy Question - This is when a user is questioning the interpretation of a specific policy or the enforcement of a specific policy. IE: "You are not following policy A" or "You should be doing this according to policy A". Now it won't always be said like that but in essence most of the threads conform to this or one (proof comes later, don't worry.) The reason that only GM replies to this is mainly because only the General Management response matters. What??? The users don't count??? Blasphemy, dictatorship, overthrow the tyrants!!!! No, it's just that when a policy isn't being followed, that should just be pointed out to management and dealt with. Having users throw in their two cents is often more destructive than constructive as threads get derailed. If users have additional instances of not following policy A to report, they can PM the thread starter or create their own, but the system has more benefits than detriments.

The second reason only General Management should reply is if it's a policy interpretation (ie: "Policy A says you shouldn't be doing this", or "Under policy A isn't this disallowed?") is because only the General Management's interpretation of the policy is relevant, because what GM interprets the policy to be is what the policy is being enforced as. Now, if you disagree with that, you can take it to the Feedback Forum where you can now work on a policy change. Isn't this a roundabout way, requiring two threads in two different forums when we could just delete complaints and use Feedback? No, because the ability to clarify what the current policy is allows the debate to be much more focused and prevents multiple pages of inflammatory posts/misinformed hypotheses to confuse the issue. If the policy is confirmed in complaints, then you can move forward in Feedback, whereas otherwise there might be 5-6 pages of misinformed posts before General Management can get their point clear about the current policy, at which time discussion will shift and it's just plain confusing.


Now, to ensure that I wasn't just babbling as I did a little bit before, I did some checking to back up my hypothesis, and picked the following random pages to browse the threads of pages: 1, 11, 13, 17, 21, 24

The vast majority were individual issues, questions of policy, complaints that policy wasn't being followed (contesting ban reasons, reporting misconduct, complaining that things weren't being done fast enough [I consider this an issue of policy not being followed as it is a policy to be prompt as possible], etc.)

So those are the two main purposes the Complaints Forum serves apart from the Feedback forum, in addition to Feedback where the member only wants to hear from General Management (in which case if you know how to post Feedback you could get a concurrent thread going about changing it here). I've also provided the reasons why I think that they need to be separate from the Feedback forum, in a forum where only General Management can post.

Hopefully this makes a lot more sense than the last post

Also as a disclaimer, I said that the discussion of whether we should CHANGE the policy should go to feedback. I will acknowledge that sometimes the thread evolves from questioning the policy to demanding change in the policy, but it started with questioning the policy. I do however think it would be sensible for General Management to say (once they have clarified the policy) "That's what the policy is. If you want it to be changed, feel free to make a post in the Feedback Forum". I think for the most part the divide is being kept, though.

Second disclaimer, I understand Gomme's rhetorical point about the naming of the complaints forum, we can be technical about what each post is, technically a query etc. That said, I could also argue that a question about where someone's VIP is is implicitly a complaint, even if it's explicitly a query. My suggestion here would be to not worry about the semantics unless they were legitimately confusing to a majority of members. In this case, I believe the point of Complaints is sufficiently clear that a renaming isn't that necessary.