Evolution or God?

[:Jamie]

God

[Smiddy]

Anyone believe the design theory? While we're on the topic.

William Paley devised an idea, using a watch.
The watch must of been designed, and you don't just find them being naturally made, they are "man-made" (and no, i'm not saying the next bit means "it" is a man).
From this he emphasised that the universe is a much more complex concept, and therefore, must of also been "designed", by something which is something us simple lifeforms (even humans) will never be able to truely know.

Just interested.

[Dan2nd]

Anyone believe the design theory? While we're on the topic.

William Paley devised an idea, using a watch.
The watch must of been designed, and you don't just find them being naturally made, they are "man-made" (and no, i'm not saying the next bit means "it" is a man).
From this he emphasised that the universe is a much more complex concept, and therefore, must of also been "designed", by something which is something us simple lifeforms (even humans) will never be able to truely know.

Just interested.

spot on I learnt that !!!

[Baving]

I am God

[8Freak8]

Anyone believe the design theory? While we're on the topic.

William Paley devised an idea, using a watch.
The watch must of been designed, and you don't just find them being naturally made, they are "man-made" (and no, i'm not saying the next bit means "it" is a man).
From this he emphasised that the universe is a much more complex concept, and therefore, must of also been "designed", by something which is something us simple lifeforms (even humans) will never be able to truely know.

Just interested.

Yeah I learnt that.

Also another argument is if a hurricane ripped through a junkyard, how likely is it that a machine as complex as a Boeing 747 could be put together? The universe being many times more complex is therefore even more unlikely to come together by random processes.

The point is though, that if you had a junkyard that was abundant with everything that is needed to make a Boeing 747, and if all of these things had specific charges to attract each other (like molecules), then there is at least a very very very very remote possibility of this happening - as long as you have one constant hurricane in a junkyard for billions of years.

[Mentor]

Anyone believe the design theory? While we're on the topic.

William Paley devised an idea, using a watch.
The watch must of been designed, and you don't just find them being naturally made, they are "man-made" (and no, i'm not saying the next bit means "it" is a man).
From this he emphasised that the universe is a much more complex concept, and therefore, must of also been "designed", by something which is something us simple lifeforms (even humans) will never be able to truely know.

Just interested.

Yea, but william's argument doesnt actualy work, for one his choice of annolgy is terrible, becuse Watches EVOLVED.

Not evolution in the organic biological sence, but still evolution.
No person has ever had the magic abilty to create a watch, it took alot of time, and reaserch, and ever more complex designs to get to the current form of watch. These ideas evolved from primative time telling devices such as sun dials up until what they are now.
This means if we apply the anaolgy, The creater diety isnt nessarly perfect, it could have requred millions of attempts to get it right, this earth could be a failed attempt? Ether way, its already not the concept of god christnaty holds.
But then again? a watch is quite simple, the world is not. SO maybe building a ship is a better anaology, but this requres 100's of not nessarly very bright workers to create it, so following the anolagy it would imply multiple gods were needed in its creation?
So his annolgy only implys an imprefect deity, Not god "/
Plus its working on an assumption that all things requre a cause, which also cannot apply to the universe.
Unless you would say:
book's has a cover (watchs have a cause(watchmaker))
All books have covers (all things have makers(clocks, tvs))

But then the next step saying the universe itself (the world in the arguments eyes) is the equilent of then saying "The Libary has a cover"

you see the problem with this kinda of agument (cosmological argument)?

There are litraly 100s of other critisims that can be drawn.

Yeah I learnt that.

Also another argument is if a hurricane ripped through a junkyard, how likely is it that a machine as complex as a Boeing 747 could be put together? The universe being many times more complex is therefore even more unlikely to come together by random processes.

The point is though, that if you had a junkyard that was abundant with everything that is needed to make a Boeing 747, and if all of these things had specific charges to attract each other (like molecules), then there is at least a very very very very remote possibility of this happening - as long as you have one constant hurricane in a junkyard for billions of years.

Also the likely hood of the boeing 747 comeing is the same likley hood as a specific pile of random junk, out of all possible combinations of matearals that is of equal likely hoods. "/
(Stephan hawkins white hole exsample exspress's this idea better (a brief history of time)

[8Freak8]

Yea, but william's argument doesnt actualy work, for one his choice of annolgy is terrible, becuse Watches EVOLVED.

Not evolution in the organic biological sence, but still evolution.
No person has ever had the magic abilty to create a watch, it took alot of time, and reaserch, and ever more complex designs to get to the current form of watch. These ideas evolved from primative time telling devices such as sun dials up until what they are now.
This means if we apply the anaolgy, The creater diety isnt nessarly perfect, it could have requred millions of attempts to get it right, this earth could be a failed attempt? Ether way, its already not the concept of god christnaty holds.
But then again? a watch is quite simple, the world is not. SO maybe building a ship is a better anaology, but this requres 100's of not nessarly very bright workers to create it, so following the anolagy it would imply multiple gods were needed in its creation?
So his annolgy only implys an imprefect deity, Not god "/
Plus its working on an assumption that all things requre a cause, which also cannot apply to the universe.
Unless you would say:
book's has a cover (watchs have a cause(watchmaker))
All books have covers (all things have makers(clocks, tvs))

But then the next step saying the universe itself (the world in the arguments eyes) is the equilent of then saying "The Libary has a cover"

you see the problem with this kinda of agument (cosmological argument)?

There are litraly 100s of other critisims that can be drawn.

You beauty!

Btw, I hope I'm not giving the impression I'm anti-Christian or anything like that, but because I do religion I get frustrated by some Christian point's of view, and have to look into it when I'm home and on the internet lol.

I think both mine and 01101101entor's arguments explain the analogy pretty well.

[Smiddy]

You may say Watches have evolved, but we've always had the resources to make them.
It's the humans themselves who have evolved and gained the extra knowledge on how to develope these watches, adding new technology to it.

It's always been there, but we've never discovered it until the time of it being discovered.

Oh, and btw - I'm not saying I agree with this argument, I was thinking of a counter argument before probably having to give in :rolleyes_

Yea, but william's argument doesnt actualy work, for one his choice of annolgy is terrible, becuse Watches EVOLVED.

Not evolution in the organic biological sence, but still evolution.
No person has ever had the magic abilty to create a watch, it took alot of time, and reaserch, and ever more complex designs to get to the current form of watch. These ideas evolved from primative time telling devices such as sun dials up until what they are now.
This means if we apply the anaolgy, The creater diety isnt nessarly perfect, it could have requred millions of attempts to get it right, this earth could be a failed attempt? Ether way, its already not the concept of god christnaty holds.
But then again? a watch is quite simple, the world is not. SO maybe building a ship is a better anaology, but this requres 100's of not nessarly very bright workers to create it, so following the anolagy it would imply multiple gods were needed in its creation?
So his annolgy only implys an imprefect deity, Not god "/
Plus its working on an assumption that all things requre a cause, which also cannot apply to the universe.
Unless you would say:
book's has a cover (watchs have a cause(watchmaker))
All books have covers (all things have makers(clocks, tvs))

But then the next step saying the universe itself (the world in the arguments eyes) is the equilent of then saying "The Libary has a cover"

you see the problem with this kinda of agument (cosmological argument)?

There are litraly 100s of other critisims that can be drawn.



Also the likely hood of the boeing 747 comeing is the same likley hood as a specific pile of random junk, out of all possible combinations of matearals that is of equal likely hoods. "/
(Stephan hawkins white hole exsample exspress's this idea better (a brief history of time)

[Mentor]

You may say Watches have evolved, but we've always had the resources to make them.
It's the humans themselves who have evolved and gained the extra knowledge on how to develope these watches, adding new technology to it.

It's always been there, but we've never discovered it until the time of it being discovered.

o.0 you could teach an ostraliphithcus to make a watch, are own evolution has nothing to do with are abilty to make wrist watch's, its a technolgy, not some biological exsention of ourselves "/
You cant evolve to have knolwage, you simply need to be able to comprihend information provided to you, aka the abilty to learn.

[Smiddy]

o.0 you could teach an ostraliphithcus to make a watch, are own evolution has nothing to do with are abilty to make wrist watch's, its a technolgy, not some biological exsention of ourselves "/
You cant evolve to have knolwage, you simply need to be able to comprihend information provided to you, aka the abilty to learn.

You said watches have evolved.
We've always had the ability to make watches, we've always had the resources to make watches, they were never put together correctly though.
Of course you learn knowledge over time, otherwise we'd apparently all still be living back in the dark ages, or clobbering other cavemen on the heads with clubs. These idea's were just never properly done correctly, with the right components.