EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Here's a copypasta:

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;

Incorrect figure and falling, the EU as a % of global trade and UK trade is to continue falling to 2050.

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

Like my city of Liverpool? Yes we've received a lot of 'European Union funding'.

Except you left out where EU money comes from. Oh that's right, from Britain as a net contributor. :rolleyes:

clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

All of this sort of legislation would have been introduced regardless of European legislation as seen in Norway, Switzerland, Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand and others. Britain has been drafting legislation like this, and often ahead of Europe, for hundreds of years. In our elected parliament.

If Canadians, Australians and Norwegians had beaches full of oil/rubbish, had no holiday entitlements from work and had poor product safety then you may have had a point. But they don't and infact in many cases they have better living standards than many EU countries do.... but without being in the EU. Funny that.

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

It has always been easy to travel, live and work across Europe. The European Union did not invent this concept indeed the Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom have had such bilateral agreements since the 1920s. Thousands of French people have always been able to live and work in London.

Freedom of movement has brought uncontrolled mass immigration which has brought intolerable strains on social services and social cohesion.

EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

In other words Britain doesn't have a seat on the world's highest trade table despite being the 5th largest economy.

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

The EU doesn't have any nuclear weapons and isn't a serious player in any nuclear talks. That's Britain and France.

European arrest warrant;

I fail to understand how the possibility of Britons being locked up abroad for months without trial is a good piece of legislation?

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;

Nothing to do with the EU. Interpol and Europol are non-EU bodies.

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

The EU doesn't have a military (thank god).

Military co-operation & intelligence is done on a bilateral basis (Five Eyes Group) or via NATO.

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

Meaningless verbiage.

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

You mean to say the EU makes investments like a company does? And where does EU money come from.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

Yeah nothing to do with NATO or thousands of American and British troops in Europe.

It was the EU. which doesn't have any army.

It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

that's called capitalism mate.

you'll have noticed that Chile, China, India, Singapore and countless others have had amazing development... surprisingly unassisted by the EU!

We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future."

A full part?

So do you @The Don; advocate us joining the Eurozone, Schengen and forming a part of an EU army? yes/no

Further to what Akeam just said above, staying in the EU will strengthen the Pound. Leaving will lead to a decade of uncertainty and therefore a weaker pound and quite frankly that will be damaging to many businesses. Before you say I am speculating - well everything the Brexit team says is speculation so shove it.

again just meaningless guesswork.

i'll do it back then. if we leave the EU the pound will strengthen. staying in the EU will lead to a decade or two of uncertainty due to the ongoing crisis in the EU and therefore a weaker pound and quite frankly that'll just damage business in this country. and before you say i am speculating, i am speculating just as you have done.

how easy was that. Not backed up by anything concrete but just assertions in the hope someone will believe the scare stories and be frightened.

[dbgtz]

Pound began falling quite significantly from the day the referendum was announced. The referendum creates uncertainty and that weakens the currency. So yes, the EU and the referendum is directly related to the current strength of the pound.

Pound has been said to be overvalued for a while
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eu...the-euro-43243
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ec6bef86-1...44feabdc0.html

[-:Undertaker:-]

Some are benefits, some could be done/were done without the EU and some people would be against.

Indeed and you know they both miss the crucial point in this entire debate which is always piled under all the economic arguments. It's about democracy.

If a government is elected in this country to scrap some environmental regulations then the will of the people should prevail. If a government is elected by the people of this country to subsidise a large business that is on the rocks then the will of the people should prevail. Now I may disagree with these, you may agree with these.

Point being, a government should be able to repeal/adopt legislation. If we do not like what the government does then we can vote it out.. EU law we cannot vote out. And that is a fundamental attack on the premise of parliamentary sovereignty and the age-old idea that "no government can bind its predecessor".

[abc]

Pound has been said to be overvalued for a while
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eu...the-euro-43243
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ec6bef86-1...44feabdc0.html

Have you even read the first link because I am pretty sure you have just read the title and posted the link.

Funny how pound fell significantly right after the announcement on the referendum was made.

And Dan, everything you post is purely speculation on what UK would have done or will do without the EU. Yet if we post any speculation you flame us for it? Okkkayyyy then.

[dbgtz]

Have you even read the first link because I am pretty sure you have just read the title and posted the link.

Funny how pound fell significantly right after the announcement on the referendum was made.

And Dan, everything you post is purely speculation on what UK would have done or will do without the EU. Yet if we post any speculation you flame us for it? Okkkayyyy then.

Skimmed them both, why?
My whole point was that some fall was inevitable regardless.

[-:Undertaker:-]

And Dan, everything you post is purely speculation on what UK would have done or will do without the EU. Yet if we post any speculation you flame us for it? Okkkayyyy then.

It is common sense or realpolitik.

If countries less well off can manage, we for sure can. Look at comparable countries and think about it. The fact you are asserting the world's 5th largest economy needs a political union it only joined in 1973 to 'survive' is just dishonest. I told you the EU isn't intended for economics, it's political.

In other news another former British Chancellor of the Exchequer has come out and backed British exit from the EU.

EU referendum: Former Tory chancellor Lord Lamont backs Brexit https://t.co/yCNoJRyXTi pic.twitter.com/KrDTx1lV3f

— The Telegraph (@Telegraph) March 2, 2016

Lord Lamont, the former Tory chancellor, has backed the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union and says that Downing Street’s warnings about the alternatives to membership are “irrelevant”.

Writing in The Telegraph, the Conservative peer who is also David Cameron’s former boss, says that Britain must “take control” of immigration and that quitting the EU is a “once in a generation opportunity”.

In a blow to the Prime Minister, he uses the article to reject claims being made by Downing Street today that “all alternatives to EU membership will damage Britain”.

Number 10 will today unveil its latest dossier on the risk of a “Brexit”, warning that the arrangements used by non-EU members like Norway and Switzerland would lead to “economic shock”.

However, Lord Lamont of Lerwick says that “talk about Norway is irrelevant” and writes that “Britain would have its own arrangement suited to our circumstances”.

Refuting the argument that Britain will not be able to reach an agreement with the EU after a “Brexit”, Lord Lamont writes: “Supporters of the EU demand to know what sort of agreement Britain would have with the EU in order to continue trading.

“What is forgotten is that the EU needs an agreement just as much as we do. German car manufacturers can’t be left up in the air, not knowing the terms on which they can export to their largest market, the UK. There’s a mutual need.”

On immigration, Lord Lamont writes: “Britain has also lost control of its borders. Of course, we need some immigration, skilled and unskilled, but we do not need immigration in the hundreds of thousands. There is no economic case for it.”

When the likes of Lords Lamont, Howard and Owen are calling for an EU exit you know they've realised the entire thing is unreformable to our needs.

[FlyingJesus]

Black in white

I think I've seen that video


This whole thread is a mess it's ALL speculation because no-one knows what's going to happen. I could claim that if we leave America will buy us as a new state and Trump will become our supreme overlord and I could also claim that if we stay we'll be subsumed by France and have to wear garlic around our necks all the time, but the reality is we just can't know. More reasonably, it may be that we leave and get perfect trading agreements with everyone in the universe and each of us eats off a golden plate and it may be that we leave and everyone takes advantage of our position as a singular nation to rip us off in the knowledge that we require trade. At this point it's just like any election, petty squabbling and everyone denying each other's numbers

Whatever the truth is, this is pretty funny and well made

[-:Undertaker:-]

A few more slithers of news.

The Swiss Government has officially withdrawn it's decades-old application to join the EU. Must be awful outside the EU! Those poor starving Swiss.

The last referendum the Swiss had on the issue was in 2001 when over 75% of Swiss voters rejected joining the EU - so today's news is a formality.

On the day Govt says there are no good options outside EU, Switzerland officially withdraws application to join EU https://t.co/iEjsOts8nC

— Vote Leave Media (@Vote_LeaveMedia) March 2, 2016

The head of the Remain campaign Lord Rose has today been accused of “intellectual dishonesty” by the Treasury Select Committee.

http://order-order.com/2016/03/02/se...al-dishonesty/

He's also admitted on camera that wages for low skilled wages would increase on Britain leaving the EU.

.@StrongerIn admits pay for working people WOULD go up after #Brexit
"That's not necessarily a good thing" #LeaveEU pic.twitter.com/E2NOYbAmFd

— Leave.EU (@LeaveEUOfficial) March 2, 2016

More reasonably, it may be that we leave and get perfect trading agreements with everyone in the universe and each of us eats off a golden plate and it may be that we leave and everyone takes advantage of our position as a singular nation to rip us off in the knowledge that we require trade. At this point it's just like any election, petty squabbling and everyone denying each other's numbers

I make no claims of a perfect Britain following an exit because my point rather is the day after Brexit we'll wake up as we are now: the sky won't have fallen in as the Remain campaign seem to claim day in and day out. But rather the benefits would start to be seen over the next decade after an exit as our FTAs with developing nations take on more and more importance as world growth and economic power shifts east towards Asia and away from Europe.

My point throughout all of this is we're clearly heading for the exit as the EU integrates. Let's leave and grab those opportunities now rather than later.

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...nce-sun-editor
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...l?sf22289206=1

Queen voiced Eurosceptic views more than once, says Sun editor

Tony Gallagher stands by paper’s ‘Queen backs Brexit’ story after palace complains to press regulator

The Sun has stepped up its battle with Buckingham Palace over the Queen’s alleged Euroscepticism by claiming it knows more than it has published about the monarch’s anti-EU views.

The paper’s editor, Tony Gallagher, robustly stood by the story that the Queen had vented her anger concerning the European Union to then-Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg during a lunch at Windsor Castle in 2011, and suggested she had voiced similar views on at least one other occasion.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Gallagher said: “We knew much more than we published, and that remains the case. There is not just one occasion when these views were aired. There was a second occasion when she expressed similarly scathing views about the EU at Buckingham Palace.”

After the initial story appeared on Wednesday under the headline “Queen backs Brexit”, the palace took the unusual step of complaining to the press regulator. The palace said the complaint related to clause one of the editor’s code, which covers inaccurate headlines not supported by the text of the article.

Asked whether the Sun was guilty of overwriting the headline to the story, Gallagher said: “Absolutely not.”

He said: “Two sources came to us with information about the Queen and her views on the EU and we would have been derelict in our duty if we didn’t put them in the paper.

“The fact that the story is inconvenient for a good number of people is not my fault. We serve our readers, not the elite who might be upset at what we’ve written. We are completely confident that the Queen’s views were expressed exactly as we’ve outlined in both the headline and the story.”

There has been widespread speculation that the justice minister, Michael Gove, who is campaigning for a vote to leave the EU, was one of the sources for the story, as he was at the Windsor Castle lunch. A spokesman for Gove said he did not comment on private conversations.

The newspaper are certainly sticking to the story despite it being referred to the IPCC so looks like there is merit in it. In addition, Nick Clegg initially rubbished this story but issued a statement that is known as a non-denial denial. In short, maybe disputing certain parts but not the entire story.

Not surprising she backs an exit (if true) though given how strongly she is known to feel about the Commonwealth. I'm sure she would much rather we be signing trade deals with our real friends like Canada, Australia, Singapore, India and Malaysia than arguing all the time with Germany & France. Added onto this, I would be appalled if any monarch of this country did not support it's continued national independence and existence as a sovereign state.

The story is unfolding though so we'll see what happens. The Justice Secretary Michael Gove MP is being dragged into the row now.

Thread merged by Empired (Forum Moderator) into the EU Referendum Megathread

[FlyingJesus]

Oh I saw this yesterday but assumed it was a link to The Onion or something haha, prob because the headline was claiming she'd had a shouting match with Clegg about it which is a totally hilarious image. Wouldn't be surprised if she did make some anti-EU comments at some point but then again The Sun also recently published a story saying that Maddie McCann was confirmed alive in Paraguay so who knows