Covid and Risk

[FlyingJesus]

I don't think you read what I said. Have you even read the statistics?

Yes that's why I know the actual numbers rather than making them up like you clearly have been. Here's a very very very very easy one that even you can read: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
To me, 1.3 million deaths and rising is not something to brush off as "oh well they were gonna die some time anyway"

Those dying are over the life expectancy and already have existing co-morbidities such as dementia and immuno-deficiency problems... meaning they were at the end of their natural lifespan regardless of whether it was Covid-19 or the common flu that took them.

You're still saying it's ok to kill people off if they *might* not have had much longer to go. Absolutely zero humanity. Not to mention that interaction between these people and the virus doesn't just affect them but everyone and everything they go near.

Prior to the Coronavirus outbreak, did you wear a mask and hide away during the winter months to protect the very old and frail from the flu, which on average kills tens of thousands of people each year in this country? Well, did you? You did not, yet I would not accuse you of having some genocidal agenda against those who were at severe risk from the flu.

Regular influenza is not really all that comparable other than being an illness that is more common in the winter months. Deaths are far far lower (even with your made up figures), and you're totally ignoring everything that comes along with corona including "long covid" symptoms which are attacking the brain itself and causing massive difficulties for the future, rather different to a lung problem that clears up. I wouldn't be bothered if we DID normalise mask wearing like they do in East Asia to be honest during regular flu outbreaks though, it's a very minor inconvenience


You're also bringing up comorbidity a lot as though it somehow invalidates the figures. This again does nothing except prove that you know nothing at all about virology or even about this specific virus - yes, comorbidities are what kills, but they are heightened dramatically by this virus which is the entire point. "Corona" itself is not claimed to be something that on its own withers an otherwise healthy person into nothingness, the whole modus operandi of the virus is to make everything else so much worse. You've done the same with the UTTER NONSENSE statement about "people who haven't even died from the virus", just showing that you understand nothing about this subject but as usual want to shout and scream and use personal anecdotes as evidence instead of widespread facts and figures. Tin hats abound.

Either way it is clear that actual spread is much more endemic which is why the widely touted 3% is obviously wrong.

Oh yeah clearrrrrrrrr right mate. You can't just guess and make shit up because you don't like the numbers, you're not Donald Trump. The official figure IS 3% whether you like it or not, and you're wilfully being wrong to push your own entirely flawed views as though they actually had credibility.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I am looking forward to on my return home being hounded by the mask zealots. Luckily, one can easily get a mask-exemption card/lanyard for a small fee from notable charities online to shoo away any stasi-inclined authority figures. I will continue to live as normal and take my own risks in what was a formerly free country until this hysteria was pushed on us by scientists with dodgy models and a government with zero spine/sinister motives.

I'm shocked that I voted Conservative and ended up not even with Jeremy Corbyn, but Kim Jong Hancock who has the nerve to order me not to associate with whoever I want freely, to mandate that I wear a silly piece of cloth for propaganda purposes (we know they do not work) and whether i'll celebrate Christmas. F you.

Yes that's why I know the actual numbers rather than making them up like you clearly have been. Here's a very very very very easy one that even you can read: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
To me, 1.3 million deaths and rising is not something to brush off as "oh well they were gonna die some time anyway"

It isn't something to brush off, it is categorical fact that the vast majority of deaths from Covid-19 are those who are very old and who have existing serious health conditions. In layman's terms from a statistical point of view, the people who are next in line to die as we all must one day.

You're still saying it's ok to kill people off if they *might* not have had much longer to go. Absolutely zero humanity. Not to mention that interaction between these people and the virus doesn't just affect them but everyone and everything they go near.

I'm not proposing killing anybody off as people die all the time. Using language as though I am sending people to their deaths on trains leading to Auschwitz is very silly when talking about a natural virus that the very old and very sick are particularly prone to. Perhaps I used the wrong word with might, as these people who are passing from the disease in most cases are going to die in the short-term. It was simply a matter of whether one of the dozens of flu, a type of pnuemonia or now Covid-19 got to them first.

Doctors make this call every day in predicting a person's chances of survival/length of life left. Is that zero humanity, or just a reflection of reality?

Regular influenza is not really all that comparable other than being an illness that is more common in the winter months. Deaths are far far lower (even with your made up figures), and you're totally ignoring everything that comes along with corona including "long covid" symptoms which are attacking the brain itself and causing massive difficulties for the future, rather different to a lung problem that clears up.

We've suffered huge amounts of deaths during past flu peaks, the last one I believe around 40,000 extra deaths in 2018?

Do you propose that every winter we shut down our economy and end social interaction to prevent flu deaths?

I wouldn't be bothered if we DID normalise mask wearing like they do in East Asia to be honest during regular flu outbreaks though, it's a very minor inconvenience

Which longer term then makes us more prone in our old age years to dying from flu, having been sheltered from it when younger.

You're also bringing up comorbidity a lot as though it somehow invalidates the figures. This again does nothing except prove that you know nothing at all about virology or even about this specific virus - yes, comorbidities are what kills, but they are heightened dramatically by this virus which is the entire point. "Corona" itself is not claimed to be something that on its own withers an otherwise healthy person into nothingness, the whole modus operandi of the virus is to make everything else so much worse. You've done the same with the UTTER NONSENSE statement about "people who haven't even died from the virus", just showing that you understand nothing about this subject but as usual want to shout and scream and use personal anecdotes as evidence instead of widespread facts and figures. Tin hats abound.

A 95 year old with dementia and even slowly progressing cancer will likely die from Covid-19, sure. Do you think their death certificate should go down as "Covid-19" as the prime cause of death? Or is the reality much more nuanced than the figures we're being fed daily by this sinister government and its mouthpieces at the BBC and other media outlets? Because I am really not going to wet the bed in fright and halt my life when I see that a few hundred very elderly people who were very sick have died from a more severe form of flu. Media theatrics aside, this is a very normal annual occurance.

Oh yeah clearrrrrrrrr right mate. You can't just guess and make shit up because you don't like the numbers, you're not Donald Trump. The official figure IS 3% whether you like it or not, and you're wilfully being wrong to push your own entirely flawed views as though they actually had credibility.

Increasingly people are turning against this hysteria, which is why you are seeing an increased flouting of the draconian rules.

As the old adage goes, judge how people vote with their feet and not what they say. More and more are now flouting the absurd rules and good on them!

[dbgtz]

Which longer term then makes us more prone in our old age years to dying from flu, having been sheltered from it when younger.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Spanish conquest of South and Central America.

British/French/Spanish colonisation of North America.

[FlyingJesus]

it is categorical fact that the vast majority of deaths from Covid-19 are those who are very old and who have existing serious health conditions. In layman's terms from a statistical point of view, the people who are next in line to die as we all must one day.

I haven't ever said that this isn't the case, however it is not WHOLLY the case and you're still advocating just letting people die because it's inconvenient for you to have any humanity. Not everyone who is dying from this is old and frail, and not everyone over 80 is at death's door despite your anecdotes

these people who are passing from the disease in most cases are going to die in the short-term

Citation needed

We've suffered huge amounts of deaths during past flu peaks, the last one I believe around 40,000 extra deaths in 2018?

Citation needed as the actual figure is 22,000

Which longer term then makes us more prone in our old age years to dying from flu, having been sheltered from it when younger.

Citation needed

A 95 year old with dementia and even slowly progressing cancer will likely die from Covid-19, sure.

Citation needed, because no not if we don't act like selfish animals who put a pint over someone else's life. These measures are temporary until vaccinations can bring it all down to more manageable rates, you'll still be able to go sit in a sweaty room full of sweaty people drinking sweaty beer once things settle

Do you think their death certificate should go down as "Covid-19" as the prime cause of death?

No and it isn't. You ***AGAIN*** don't seem to know what you're talking about, as figures with covid deaths absolutely do not attribute the entire death to the virus, but are shown with it being a complication

[-:Undertaker:-]

I haven't ever said that this isn't the case, however it is not WHOLLY the case and you're still advocating just letting people die because it's inconvenient for you to have any humanity. Not everyone who is dying from this is old and frail, and not everyone over 80 is at death's door despite your anecdotes

As Lord Sumption said earlier this week, if the *only* thing that matters to you is the total amount of deaths on a television screen then I can see your logic for supporting a lockdown and draconian measures. However, to those of us who do care about other things such as people being treated for cancer, the quality of life for both the very old and the young generally, the economy, people paying their mortgages, health and fitness, children being educated, people with mental health problems not being left alone to suffer and the countless other problems and activities we engage in as human beings - all of these things may not appear in scary red writing on a television screen, but let me tell you if they did and were able to measure pain and loss then it would be running into the millions everyday far ahead of this virus.

Citation needed as the actual figure is 22,000

Would you have supported closing the economy and locking everyone up to save those 22,000 in 2018?

Citation needed, because no not if we don't act like selfish animals who put a pint over someone else's life. These measures are temporary until vaccinations can bring it all down to more manageable rates, you'll still be able to go sit in a sweaty room full of sweaty people drinking sweaty beer once things settle

A person at risk is not compelled to visit a sweaty pub with me. They are entirely free to shield and stay home if they so wish.

No and it isn't. You ***AGAIN*** don't seem to know what you're talking about, as figures with covid deaths absolutely do not attribute the entire death to the virus, but are shown with it being a complication

There are countless people coming out and saying how their elderly and very sick relatives are having Covid-19 put down when the reality is different.

[dbgtz]

Spanish conquest of South and Central America.

British/French/Spanish colonisation of North America.

you do understand the flu has a lot of strains and mutates frequently, yes?

[-:Undertaker:-]

you do understand the flu has a lot of strains and mutates frequently, yes?

Indeed, which is why it is important to actually catch it to build a good immune response against various strains instead of trying to hide from it. If you cut yourself off from catching colds and flus for 50 years, and then caught a strain in later life it would likely bear little relationship to those you caught 50 years ago, meaning it would hit you much harder than it would have done - especially as you'll be in old age then. Of course, it is still no guarantee of protection as your immune system may be collapsing due to other co-morbidities but the same will apply to any vaccine they come up with - it will not save the very old who are on death's door. As I stated earlier, my grandfather passed from pnuemonia despite having had it a few times before along with being pumped full of strong anti-biotics, but it never and couldn't save him because his immune system was collapsing because of his age and general state of health. At 89 and a good life, it was just time to go.

In the same way we expose children, often purposely, to chickenpox to prevent the virus in later life being much more serious. Whilst in India and other places, I have purposely eaten in dirty restaurants in the knowledge I will likely be slightly sick - but that it will improve my immune system over time. Yes, I am taking a risk with my health in that moment but longer term it will probably toughen my immune system in the same way Indians do not get "Delhi belly". I knowingly take risks when gardening, I dig with my bare hands if I can as opposed to a shovel or trowel, even if I have cut myself and have a bleeding cut on my hands I continue - doing so boosts my immune system, but at a risk.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah none of that is scientifically or medically accurate.

Catching one strain of flu will do nothing at all for you in terms of protection for future mutations of a virus. You would in fact be in a far better shape to fight off flu if you hadn't recently suffered it, as your body would be in good form as opposed to being beaten down. Chicken pox is entirely different and does not mutate - you are presumably referring to the worse condition in adulthood known as shingles, which is caused by the exact same virus (VZV) and has nothing at all to do with how influenza works. Also giving yourself food poisoning and tetanus are not good plans.

If you don't understand virology that's fine, but don't pretend that you do

Well said that chap

[-:Undertaker:-]

Two questions @FlyingJesus;

1. Should we have locked down to prevent the deaths of 22,000 old and very vulnerable from flu back in 2018?

2. Is it only the scary death count on BBC news that comes into the equation, or do all the job losses/mental strain/undiagnosed illnesses matter at all?