'No extension to the transition period' formally agreed by Britain and the EU

[-:Undertaker:-]

One of the major reasons we are the 5th largest economy is due to being part of the EU. Once we are completely out of the EU, I assure you that we will continue to slip down that list of the largest economies.

Britain has been in the top 5 economies of the world since around the 1600s/1700s.

We joined the EU in 1973.

The fact is, a large portion of the British public who voted to leave were uneducated or mislead. They believed that by leaving, from the very next day the UK will be like paradise... heck this is how Boris, Cummings and those loonies made it sound like. And the unemployed or lazy or uneducated Brits believed these lies and voted. Now they realise the truth but it is too late.

"The public are stupid because my side of the argument was so unconvincing"

Lesson: DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND DO NOT JUST TRUST WHAT OTHERS SAY AS IT WILL ALMOST ALWAYS BE BIASED.

Now that we have left the EU, I just want us to be out, either with or without a deal by end of this year. This way we can actually end this uncertainty.

EU is and was in no means perfect. But it had a significant amount of benefits which we will no longer be a part of.

Can I ask you when the economic collapse will occur from us leaving the EU, as your side predicted? First you said it would collapse with a Leave vote, then you said it would do so when we actually left, now you're side are saying after the transition. The Doomsday date seems to be continuously moving forward so I am curious as to when will we actually see a measurable recession that we can say is down to Britain not being in the EU?

[dbgtz]

i had no intention of replying to you undertaker as i simply wanted to make sectional aware of the flaws in your argument and to look things up alongside what you said, but i will reply to some.

We're not discussing Freedom of Movement, this is about the economics only.

The EU aims to enable EU citizens to study, live, shop, work and retire in any EU country and enjoy products from all over Europe. To do this, it ensures free movement of goods, services, capital and persons in a single EU internal market.
https://europa.eu/european-union/top...ngle-market_en

Northern Ireland isn't a disputed territory as the Republic of Ireland recognises British sovereignty, and both the Cypriot bases and Gibraltar are governed by treaties made under international law. I have visited Gibraltar three times, and since I last went the only difference post-Brexit is that the Commonwealth flag has replaced the EU flag on the British side of the land border while thousands of Spanish continue to cross the border everyday to work in Gibraltar.

hence the quotations marks, "disputed"

I don't understand what difference this makes. India is thousands of miles away from us, yet has a very similar military structure to our own. Australia is on the other side of the planet, yet shares the same Head of State (the Queen) as us. Canada is at the roof of the world, yet has the same system of government as us. New Zealand is at the bottom of the world alone, yet trades with us tens of thousands of miles away.

Distance doesn't make something different to you. We're more similar to Australia/Canada/New Zealand than we are to Poland or Lithuania.

if geography doesnt matter then why did one of your hypotheticals critique the distance of moving produce

Canada has two enormous land borders with America, in total stretching 5,524 miles across.

It (Canada) also has maritime borders with Denmark and France.

The border between Britain and Ireland is 310 miles across.

i guess it wasnt obvious but clearly i meant land borders with the eu

Trade in the City of London in the Chinese currency has reached a record high: https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/uk-...record-levels/

China is on the other side of the world, yet still trades at the City of London. I thought you said distance matters? London is successful not because it is a few hundred miles away from Europe, but because British taxes and regulations are competitive and our workers good at what they do.

this has nothing to do with what i said - we do have a greater reliance on clearing euros than canada and australia

I would agree this is a problem, which is why it is good we're leaving the Single Market and EU energy market and won't be dependent on other countries going into the future for our energy. The EU is co-ordinating integration of energy markets, which I assume you supported.

You can't glue us to stupid EU policies and then turn around and say "But HA! Look how dependent on them we are!"

where do you plan on making up the slack if we no longer had access to energy from eu countries? eu policy hasnt made us reliant on imports, poor government decisions have
im not really sure what youre saying with "The EU is co-ordinating integration of energy markets"

[also this is an example of where geography is very important ]

We paid £10bn+ every year into the EU for our membership.

Are you claiming it will cost us, an island, £10bn+ a year to carry our Customs checks which we already carry out every hour on non-EU goods?

no, read what i actually said and dont put words into my mouth
our net contribution was also not 10bn

Most countries in world are not part of Single Markets and Customs Unions.

Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world out of nearly 200 countries, in what way are we "small"?

disingenuous to compare countries to markets
it only takes a few disproportionally large players to set the rules as seen in my example

as you like to point these kind of things out as well, over the next decade we are likely to slip further from #5

Feel free to explain what part of it is wrong.

whats wrong is you do not give any critical view of your own opinion, you will happily twist everything to be anti-eu without questioning any of the pros/cons of it
the same can also be said of anyone on the opposite side of it, my point was that looking up something and accepting it from one source is a bad idea

If supply chains have collapsed (which they have due to Coronavirus) it means less hassle for businesses in changing supply chains post-31st Dec.

What have you got to say to refute this simple logic?

again youve just made a claim about supply chains without any evidence which is my point - where is the evidence? plenty of businesses are/were still going
i also dont see now how you can claim its less hassle when you have no experience in the profession

anyway i am done in this thread now

[-:Undertaker:-]

Gove today:

The EU aims to enable EU citizens to study, live, shop, work and retire in any EU country and enjoy products from all over Europe. To do this, it ensures free movement of goods, services, capital and persons in a single EU internal market.
https://europa.eu/european-union/top...ngle-market_en

We know about this. We also know that the vast majority of Britons will never and never intended to live and work in the EU, other than enjoying a week or two there on holiday every summer. We also know that the main driving force behind Britain's decision to leave the EU was the fact that Britain had no control over its immigration policy in regard to EU nationals because of Freedom of Movement.

hence the quotations marks, "disputed"

I don't see what this has to do with Britain's membership of the EU.

Are you suggesting Spain is going to invade Gibraltar because we've left the EU?

if geography doesnt matter then why did one of your hypotheticals critique the distance of moving produce

Because it matters only very slightly.

I regularly order things online from as far as China as I do from as far as Germany (the EU).

i guess it wasnt obvious but clearly i meant land borders with the eu

We have one land border with the EU and we agreed the CTA with southern Ireland long before the EU was even thought of. As a sovereign state, we're perfectly capable of policing and managing our own borders like virtually every other nation does.

this has nothing to do with what i said - we do have a greater reliance on clearing euros than canada and australia

Are you suggesting we should cut the EU off from the powerful City of London if they decide to play around? Good idea, I agree.

where do you plan on making up the slack if we no longer had access to energy from eu countries? eu policy hasnt made us reliant on imports, poor government decisions have
im not really sure what youre saying with "The EU is co-ordinating integration of energy markets"

Those poor policy choices are a result of EU energy policy which aims to create a Single Market in the energy sector. Creating a Single Market in the energy sector means ensuring that national borders (law) cannot impede that market.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/prio...ergy-market_en

So yes, it is regrettable that we are now partly dependent on the continent for energy, but thankfully we never reached the point where we were totally integrated into the EU energy market as extracting ourselves would then have been more difficult.

[also this is an example of where geography is very important ]

We import most of our uranium from non-EU Kazakhstan - a landlocked country 3,000 miles away in Central Asia.

no, read what i actually said and dont put words into my mouth
our net contribution was also not 10bn

You're right, I got the figure wrong - the real figure (in 2019) was £20 billion without the rebate, and £15.5 billion with the rebate.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gover...0to%20the%20EU.

disingenuous to compare countries to markets
it only takes a few disproportionally large players to set the rules as seen in my example

Really?

So given America is the largest market in the world, can you point me to examples where countries have adopted whole swathes of US regulations and laws on entire sectors into their lawbooks? And where they've placed themselves under the jurisdiction of the SCOTUS to enforce those laws? Or even examples with China, the second largest market in the world. Or even Japan, the third largest market in the world.

Indeed, given we're the 5th largest market in the world... your logic suggests 195 other countries will soon be adopting our trade regs?

as you like to point these kind of things out as well, over the next decade we are likely to slip further from #5

And along with Russia and Germany, we're expected to be one of only 3 European countries still in the top 10 by 2050.

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/2020...-world-in-2050

10th out of 200 countries? I'm quite happy with that.

whats wrong is you do not give any critical view of your own opinion, you will happily twist everything to be anti-eu without questioning any of the pros/cons of it
the same can also be said of anyone on the opposite side of it, my point was that looking up something and accepting it from one source is a bad idea

Thus far I have not seen an emergency budget, a Brexit-caused recession or medicinal shortages. I'm still waiting.

again youve just made a claim about supply chains without any evidence which is my point - where is the evidence? plenty of businesses are/were still going
i also dont see now how you can claim its less hassle when you have no experience in the profession

Logic 101 really. The economy is not running at 100%...... therefore there will be less upheaval to supply chains now.

In a few days time it will have been 4 years since the referendum. In 6 months we'll be completely free - what we voted for.

[dbgtz]

i have no interest in a long reply to you undertaker as even when you have been without a doubt proven wrong in the past, you just ignore it



the only thing i want to say is the fact you linked to that ONS article and pushed out that 15.5bn either shows you havent fully read the article, you didn't understand the article, or you didnt accept the article.

[-:Undertaker:-]

i have no interest in a long reply to you undertaker as even when you have been without a doubt proven wrong in the past, you just ignore it

You keep saying that but we're yet to see any of your predictions from 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 come true.

Can you provide even just one prediction for post-31st December so we can hold you to it?

the only thing i want to say is the fact you linked to that ONS article and pushed out that 15.5bn either shows you havent fully read the article, you didn't understand the article, or you didnt accept the article.

What? Can you not see the massive graph on the ONS page?

We pay them £15.5bn a year after the rebate is handed back. Fact.

[dbgtz]

bolding your statement doesnt make you correct

i dont believe youve actually read it and you just skimmed and pulled out the first thing, otherwise you wouldnt have said it was data from 2019 and then claim we pay 15.5bn a year

[Seatherny]

Britain has been in the top 5 economies of the world since around the 1600s/1700s.

We joined the EU in 1973.



"The public are stupid because my side of the argument was so unconvincing"



Can I ask you when the economic collapse will occur from us leaving the EU, as your side predicted? First you said it would collapse with a Leave vote, then you said it would do so when we actually left, now you're side are saying after the transition. The Doomsday date seems to be continuously moving forward so I am curious as to when will we actually see a measurable recession that we can say is down to Britain not being in the EU?

The public ARE stupid. They are gullible and many are uneducated fools.

And economy has suffered, look at the stats. And the GBP collapsed. I am losing over £200,000 per year in currency exchange due to the amount I import from India/China.

[-:Undertaker:-]

bolding your statement doesnt make you correct

i dont believe youve actually read it and you just skimmed and pulled out the first thing, otherwise you wouldnt have said it was data from 2019 and then claim we pay 15.5bn a year

You seem to be claiming that we should knock off the money the EU then spends here. But that isn't our contribution, the contribution is the amount we send them just as your wage is what your company pays you each month, not your wage minus your mortgage/rent and heating bills. In the same way that the Department for Foreign Aid doesn't calculate the amount of Aid spent by knocking off any money that is then spent on British companies. It seems to be only the EU we're expected to apply this strange way of looking at funding to, but nothing else.

We pay the EU £20bn, and after rebate that is £15.5bn according to the ONS. Either way, anything over a penny is too much.

The public ARE stupid. They are gullible and many are uneducated fools.

If the public are so stupid then they surely would have fell for your emergency budget and immediate recession claims? (that never happened)

That the Great British public can see through nonsense like that surely shows they're far more intelligent than Remain gave them credit for.

And economy has suffered, look at the stats. And the GBP collapsed. I am losing over £200,000 per year in currency exchange due to the amount I import from India/China.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/ba...BP-to-EUR-2015

Today £1 will buy you €1.11

Back in March 2010 it would've bought you €1.11

In January 2015 it would've bought you €1.27

The fact is that the Pound rallied far too high in the run-up to the referendum as currency speculators bet heavily on a Remain win in the referendum, and when that didn't conspire were left with egg on their faces. That's rich boys with more money than sense for you who take everything they read in the mainstream media as gospel like Cameron boasting at the G20 summit in 2014 that he was going to win by 70% to 30%, rather than listening to what was being said in the pubs and cafes across Britain this time four years ago.

TDLR; Currencies go up and down and the Earth continues to rotate.

[Seatherny]

Today £1 will buy you €1.11

Back in March 2010 it would've bought you €1.11

In January 2015 it would've bought you €1.27

The fact is that the Pound rallied far too high in the run-up to the referendum as currency speculators bet heavily on a Remain win in the referendum, and when that didn't conspire were left with egg on their faces. That's rich boys with more money than sense for you who take everything they read in the mainstream media as gospel like Cameron boasting at the G20 summit in 2014 that he was going to win by 70% to 30%, rather than listening to what was being said in the pubs and cafes across Britain this time four years ago.

TDLR; Currencies go up and down and the Earth continues to rotate.

The fact you are comparing GBP to EURO for a comparison on the true strength of the GBP shows your lack of knowledge on this topic. The USD is the bench mark currency, not EURO. This is why most international trades are quoted in USD. In 2010, GBP to USD was 1.60, today it is 1.235 and falling. Once the referendum was announced, GBP traded between 1.45-1.55 against the USD. The day the result was announced, it collapsed to 1.20 and since then it has stayed around this.

Dan, you do not need to quote charts to me, I trade millions in currency every year, I know the exchange rates by heart. I know the true losses suffered by British businesses due to Brexit and the uncertainity caused by it has led pound to fall dramatically.

"Currencies go up and down and Earth continues to rotate" - and Earth will continue to rotate no matter what happens politically. I do not know why you come up with these lines when they are pointless and do not add any meaning to the discussion.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The fact you are comparing GBP to EURO for a comparison on the true strength of the GBP shows your lack of knowledge on this topic. The USD is the bench mark currency, not EURO. This is why most international trades are quoted in USD. In 2010, GBP to USD was 1.60, today it is 1.235 and falling. Once the referendum was announced, GBP traded between 1.45-1.55 against the USD. The day the result was announced, it collapsed to 1.20 and since then it has stayed around this.

Dan, you do not need to quote charts to me, I trade millions in currency every year, I know the exchange rates by heart. I know the true losses suffered by British businesses due to Brexit and the uncertainity caused by it has led pound to fall dramatically.

"Currencies go up and down and Earth continues to rotate" - and Earth will continue to rotate no matter what happens politically. I do not know why you come up with these lines when they are pointless and do not add any meaning to the discussion.

Fine, let's use the USD as our comparison then.


In 2010, €1 = $1.4

In 2015, €1 = $1.2

In 2020, €1 = $1.06


So against the American Dollar, the Euro has fallen dramatically.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I think I am right in saying that the EU hasn't left the EU?

Like I said originally - currencies rise and fall, and the GBP was vastly overinflated in the run up to the referendum by currency speculators.