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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser View Post
    Even in cases where the mother's life is in danger or in cases of rape or incest?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._birth_mothers

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...on-rape-victim
    This is always brought up which I find very strange given the percentages we're talking about here.

    In the USA in 2020, there were 930,160 abortions carried out nationwide. Of those, only 1% were due to pregnancy because of rape and less than 0.5% due to incest. The vast majority of abortions are therefore carried out as a form of contraception so we need to stop with the extreme examples when discussing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser
    Unfortunately I personally could never see this as a black or white issue like that. I think there's a lot of grey area here and a lot of circumstances where an abortion is the right decision. I don't trust the state to do a good job figuring out what all those circumstances are, and even if they could it would be unduly invasive for women to put up with. So for me I think we should allow women to do what they want and make the right choices for themselves. Some tiny fraction of people will abuse it but then again that happens with every right / privilege that exists.
    Are you saying you support abortion up to the point of birth?
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 06-07-2022 at 09:50 AM.



  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    This is always brought up which I find very strange given the percentages we're talking about here.

    In the USA in 2020, there were 930,160 abortions carried out nationwide. Of those, only 1% were due to pregnancy because of rape and less than 0.5% due to incest. The vast majority of abortions are therefore carried out as a form of contraception so we need to stop with the extreme examples when discussing this.
    So because it's rare you're saying you don't think we should have laws to protect women who've been sexually abused and that we should force them to carry babies that are products of rape or incest. The Republican Party is in favor of these exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Are you saying you support abortion up to the point of birth?
    It completely depends on the factors of the pregnancy. If there's a fetal anomaly (which are sadly still common) or if there's a health risk to the pregnant mother then I absolutely support late term abortion in those cases. Most abortion clinics that I'm aware of (in Canada) wont even perform an abortion if it isn't for a reason such as this beyond 23 weeks, and late term abortions are incredibly rare too because they're complicated to perform, expensive and dangerous for the mother.

    I wouldn't support someone getting a late term abortion at 35 weeks because she changed her mind and there's no other reason. But my point is I don't really think this is happening, or if it is it's insanely rare. It's funny how Ben Shapiro makes it sound like late term abortions happen all the time and they're totally evil, but late term abortions in general are less than 1% of abortions overall, and a vast amount of those are again due to anomalies and other health related reasons, so the boogie man that Shapiro and others try and create here doesn't even exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Abortion is not a constitutional right in almost all western countries including the UK, and almost all western countries dictate the terms (if, how and when) of abortions.


    This sentence alone shows how undeveloped these countries really are. Can call itself a developed first world nation but in reality the rest of the world just laughs.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser View Post
    So because it's rare you're saying you don't think we should have laws to protect women who've been sexually abused and that we should force them to carry babies that are products of rape or incest. The Republican Party is in favor of these exceptions.
    Are you saying you would agree to limiting abortion just to cases of rape, incest and a threat to the life of the mother?

    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser
    It completely depends on the factors of the pregnancy. If there's a fetal anomaly (which are sadly still common) or if there's a health risk to the pregnant mother then I absolutely support late term abortion in those cases. Most abortion clinics that I'm aware of (in Canada) wont even perform an abortion if it isn't for a reason such as this beyond 23 weeks, and late term abortions are incredibly rare too because they're complicated to perform, expensive and dangerous for the mother.

    I wouldn't support someone getting a late term abortion at 35 weeks because she changed her mind and there's no other reason. But my point is I don't really think this is happening, or if it is it's insanely rare. It's funny how Ben Shapiro makes it sound like late term abortions happen all the time and they're totally evil, but late term abortions in general are less than 1% of abortions overall, and a vast amount of those are again due to anomalies and other health related reasons, so the boogie man that Shapiro and others try and create here doesn't even exist.
    Here in Britain the limit is 24 years, and if you type in Google images a picture of a baby at 24 weeks you can find many premature babies who at that age doctors will fight to keep alive and save. I would consider 24 weeks a late term abortion, and it is entirely legal in the United Kingdom. I find it vile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seatherny View Post
    This sentence alone shows how undeveloped these countries really are. Can call itself a developed first world nation but in reality the rest of the world just laughs.
    In most of the world it is the case that abortion is legal only due to legislation, not because of constitutional right. Who is laughing?



  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Are you saying you would agree to limiting abortion just to cases of rape, incest and a threat to the life of the mother?
    You didn't answer my question but how would you possibly enforce those laws? You're basically asking doctors to regulate a woman's body during her pregnancy. Are we going to require that women do weekly ultrasounds, that they and doctors document and file reports to track their pregnancies with government agencies? Who will be the legal arbiter who determines if a case was sexual assault or not? Our legal system already has trouble with this and now we have to investigate these cases and resolve them in a manner of several short weeks, plus all of this assumes women are comfortable coming forward reporting that they've been sexually abused which is incredibly difficult and emotionally hard to navigate as well.

    Maybe in a perfect world where we have all the data, or in an evil hostile brutal dictatorial regime like China we could and would be comfortable being as intrusive as we want to collect and enforce all of this top down, but in practice it's impossible. Also governments are infamously bad at doing many things at scale so even if we tried enforcing such a law with earnest, it would probably end in disaster anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post

    Here in Britain the limit is 24 years, and if you type in Google images a picture of a baby at 24 weeks you can find many premature babies who at that age doctors will fight to keep alive and save. I would consider 24 weeks a late term abortion, and it is entirely legal in the United Kingdom. I find it vile.
    Yes that contrived Ben Shapiro scenario may sound vile but the truth is 89% of abortions in the UK are performed before 10 weeks of pregnancy. How many women in the UK are getting late term abortions for unexceptional reasons? And as I mentioned above how could we possibly enforce a law to catch them that isn't an intrusive imposition on all women? We've seen how ineffective & erroneous our governments (US, Canada, UK etc) all were during COVID. You really want people like Johnson or Corbyn to have this power and to have a go at enforcing a law like this? Also doesn't the NHS currently have a record high burn rate as well as a staffing issue both of which will surly just get worse with continued COVID, inflation, brexit and an aging population?

    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post

    In most of the world it is the case that abortion is legal only due to legislation, not because of constitutional right. Who is laughing?
    To be kind of mean should we really look at most of the world as an example to follow given how oppressive most of the world generally is? China, Russia, most of the Middle East, much of South America are all incredibly un-free and un-democratic and generally terrible on human rights. The travesty here is that the United States should be a leader and setting positive examples for human rights that push the world toward freedom and democracy and a world where woman have freedom and democracy too. Apart from his stance on China DJT & the SCOTUS he built is a major regression for America on the world stage imo.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser View Post
    You didn't answer my question
    My own stance is that I only support abortion when the mother's life is in danger or the baby is severely disabled/will suffer (as in brain-dead).

    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser
    but how would you possibly enforce those laws? You're basically asking doctors to regulate a woman's body during her pregnancy. Are we going to require that women do weekly ultrasounds, that they and doctors document and file reports to track their pregnancies with government agencies? Who will be the legal arbiter who determines if a case was sexual assault or not? Our legal system already has trouble with this and now we have to investigate these cases and resolve them in a manner of several short weeks, plus all of this assumes women are comfortable coming forward reporting that they've been sexually abused which is incredibly difficult and emotionally hard to navigate as well.

    Maybe in a perfect world where we have all the data, or in an evil hostile brutal dictatorial regime like China we could and would be comfortable being as intrusive as we want to collect and enforce all of this top down, but in practice it's impossible. Also governments are infamously bad at doing many things at scale so even if we tried enforcing such a law with earnest, it would probably end in disaster anyway.
    Laws on abortion are already enforced. I cannot think of a country that does not have limits and conditions on abortion. Can you?

    My impression seems to be that you are quite uncomfortable (and rightly so) about abortion being used as a contraceptive, which is the case for 95% of abortions taking place, and you're obviously aware that abortion includes techniques such as scrambling an unborn baby up in the womb and sucking it out through a tube, but try to justify it by bringing up very extreme circumstances (rape, incest, mother's life in danger) as well as just throwing your hands up and saying we can't regulate or police it when evidently we can because we already have legal limits around abortion that are enforced by healthcare professionals and the courts if need be.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser
    Yes that contrived Ben Shapiro scenario may sound vile but the truth is 89% of abortions in the UK are performed before 10 weeks of pregnancy. How many women in the UK are getting late term abortions for unexceptional reasons? And as I mentioned above how could we possibly enforce a law to catch them that isn't an intrusive imposition on all women? We've seen how ineffective & erroneous our governments (US, Canada, UK etc) all were during COVID. You really want people like Johnson or Corbyn to have this power and to have a go at enforcing a law like this? Also doesn't the NHS currently have a record high burn rate as well as a staffing issue both of which will surly just get worse with continued COVID, inflation, brexit and an aging population?
    I'm not convinced that the NHS being crap means we need to terminate the lives of perfectly healthy and innocent babies.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotelUser
    To be kind of mean should we really look at most of the world as an example to follow given how oppressive most of the world generally is? China, Russia, most of the Middle East, much of South America are all incredibly un-free and un-democratic and generally terrible on human rights. The travesty here is that the United States should be a leader and setting positive examples for human rights that push the world toward freedom and democracy and a world where woman have freedom and democracy too. Apart from his stance on China DJT & the SCOTUS he built is a major regression for America on the world stage imo.
    I don't understand what we're saying here.

    In most free western countries as I have said throughout the thread, abortion is not a constitutional right and is governed by statue law. This is the case in Britain, France, Spain and almost every European country as well as Australia, New Zealand and I think even Canada. The United States from 1973-2022 was the outlier in that a political court tried to make a political issue a constitutional right when it clearly was not. With the recent decision of the court, America is now on a par with almost every other western nation.

    Taking a look at Europe for example and going back to what you said about enforcing abortion laws, in Poland abortion is strictly regulated to the point where it is only allowed in cases of rape and incest - and in Malta abortion is completely illegal.



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