Moderating

[Immenseman]

This thread is my concerns of the effectiveness of the system you use to moderate the users and the forum in general. As I understand it you use a variety of measures to "punish" members who break the rules. They consist of PMs, user notes, warnings and infractions often handed out in that order.

As some of you may know I recently received a PM from management telling me I had clocked up 20+ user notes and numerous infractions and warnings over the last year. I'm not going to argue my individual case because I'd rather the system was looked at and the flaws eradicated or at least altered to ensure that moderating is as effective as it can be.

With the user notes, apparently I have way too many. This is the problem. People who have 15+, I know other members have that many should be banned is what I gathered after speaking to nvrspk4. Right, how are we supposed to know how many user notes we have picked up? I really don't understand this. I had no idea if I had 21 or 3.

I spoke to the General and Forum manager about this already. Nvrspk4 told me that usually PMs are sent with user notes to alert the users they have broken the rules. I now understand this isn't always the case but it often is. I can confirm that I have had no way near this many PMs. I think it should be mandatory - every time a user note is placed on your account you should receive a PM telling you so or at least more regularly than at the moment. I'd say the only super moderator who issues PMs and probably uses the system well is Catzsy. There may be more who I haven't encountered.

It's all well and good telling me I have 20+ user notes and that it isn't acceptable. However, if I had been sent a PM with each and every one then I wouldn't have so many. I personally see this as a communication failure on your behalf. Rather than threatening users with banning them because they've clocked up too many how about you spend your valuable time doing something worth while and change the rule so that moderators should PM the user each time a user note is issued. I don't care about time restraints - you shouldn't implement a system that isn't practical.

We're the members, some of us paying member yet you can't even spend approximately 30 seconds sending a PM telling us we have been issued a user note for posting inappropriately for example. That would eradicate the communication issue and let users know they've broken the equivocal rules.

Also, I then asked nvrspk4 to tell me what some of my user notes were for. He gave me a list of a few of the breaches. Numerous of them were for the same offence. Thus I think if a moderator is going to issue a user note to a member for trolling lets say and they see they already have one for trolling then surely they can make it a warning instead. At least with warnings we can see how many we've built up and acknowledge them and alter our behaviour to ensure we don't fall foul of the same offence again. I have numerous user notes for the same offence. I'm not even talking user notes for the same thing twice. I've had user notes 3/4 times for the same offence, surely I should be warned for it after acquiring a user note for it twice.

Again, is this time restraints? Can moderators not be bothered to look through the user notes before deciding on what negative sanction to issue? That's the only conclusion I can come to. I don't want moderators to be cutting corners because it's just poor service to members, who I will reiterate keep this forum open. How hard can it be to see a member has had 3 user notes for the same offence? Instead of whacking another one on there which they won't even know about how about adding a warning or even an infraction so the member is aware.

As I've been writing this it has become evident that moderating isn't as good as I thought. I personally know it's riddled with friends of management becoming moderators but that is my opinion and can't be proven so I won't elaborate on that because, unlike some, I don't wrongly accuse when I don't know the full story ;). Instead moderators aren't doing their job througoughly enough, I am generalising because I can't see all my user notes and who added them.

Another point is you use things from over a year ago?! In my PM it mentioned things that happened 12 months ago. I said I didn't want to mention my individual situation but I assume that's the way it goes for all members. For a start, I have been banned in December 2008, yet you still look at things before then to try and ban me again. Do you always punish people for things they've already been punished for.

The way the PM was sent was rude and it was no coincedence it was sent yesterday after I proved a certain person wrong and they had to send numerous PMs to get their point across and finally their friend listened and decided to take action :rolleyes:.

At the moment, I've got 3 infractions which is more than I've ever had, yet you basically say I'm the worst behaved on the forum. If I was so ill behaved I wouldn't create this thread to try and improve things for myself and others. I don't see how I have had so many user notes yet so little warnings and infractions. The warnings and infractions I have had have often been removed or downgraded from infractions to warnings etc. I can see the last 5 on my user CP and 3 out of the 5 have been removed. Does that mean 60% of all moderating on my account is wrong? No, that would be unfair but you can't throw "facts" around without digging deeper and looking at each and every account individually. I was staff in January 2009, personally appointed by the General Manager so my behaviour can't be all that bad yet you say I've been so ill behaved over the last 12 months, I was still staff like 3 months ago until I resigned. Not fired, resigned. Whether I was going to be fired is another story :eusa_whis

All of my points seem to come down to skipping corners. I don't think this is right for members to have to endure. There are many people who would happily spend the time being a moderator and would do the task in front of them with depth, an element which is evidently lacking at the present time.

To conclude my points for those who don't want to read (I don't blame you):


Send a PM with every user note
Look at previous user notes for the same offence before adding another one
If a member has 2 user notes about a rule they've broken again - issue a warning/infraction instead
Before banning a member or threatening to ban, look into their account first and don't jump to conclusions

You can see my reasoning for such points throughout my post. I just added that for people who don't wish to read through the whole post, that was just to conclude.

[Robbie]

A PM is sent with every usernote (at least I send one anyway, and the other mods should), I'll comment on the rest in a minute





Send a PM with every user note - I do
Look at previous user notes for the same offence before adding another one - We do
If a member has 2 user notes about a rule they've broken again - issue a warning/infraction instead We do. Usernote/PM, Warning, Infraction
Before banning a member or threatening to ban, look into their account first and don't jump to conclusions - We do

You can see my reasoning for such points throughout my post. I just added that for people who don't wish to read through the whole post, that was just to conclude.

[Immenseman]

A PM is sent with every usernote (at least I send one anyway, and the other mods should), I'll comment on the rest in a minute

Well I spoke to Matt and Nvr who said it's usually the case but not always. There is no way I have received 20+ PMs regarding my behaviour but I've had 20+ user notes.

[Robbie]

Well I spoke to Matt and Nvr who said it's usually the case but not always. There is no way I have received 20+ PMs regarding my behaviour but I've had 20+ user notes.

Since september 08 you've had 23 user notes - the usernotes include polite pms given, warnings, signature oversizes etc, so you may not have had a PM always

[xxMATTGxx]

Well I spoke to Matt and Nvr who said it's usually the case but not always. There is no way I have received 20+ PMs regarding my behaviour but I've had 20+ user notes.

Correct. I also mentioned not all usernotes need a PM to the user as some usernotes can contain other information. For example; "If user breaks "rule here" contact "whoever" for them to be placed on auto ban" Where the user doesn't actually need to know about that. Although this isn't the case with your own situation.

Side note: People shouldn't really have usernotes for the same rule breaking more than once, unless it was something like a signature oversize.

[Hecktix]

As robbie said a PM is sent with every usernote, because really the point is to PM the user about the issue, as a polite reminder, the usernote is technically just a record of the PM.. and most usernotes are just carbon copies of the PM.

The system we are told to use is PM the user if they have no record of the rule break before then to record this PM as a usernote, if they already have a usernote with a PM reminding them not to break the particular rule, then they are issued a warning, if they already have a warning it then turns into an infraction.

I think one of the biggest problems with usernotes is unlike infractions & warnings, they don't expire. So it's a permanent record, which as you say, if you had a usernote for trolling dated back to Dec 2008, and you were trolling the forum today, would it be fair to give you a profile-visible warning straight away - but I suppose that depends on the moderator & their judgement.

I think in moderator's PMs we should make it clear that records of the PM being sent are being made, because there's no point in letting users see their usernotes because really they should be getting the PMs, then again there is the arguement if a user has so many, how can they keep track because obviously PMs are not permanent.

Looking at your usernotes, I'd say less than half of them would be taken into consideration when issuing sanctions, mainly due to some of them dating far back.

[scottish]

Could you do a 5 minute job, edit the group perms

Can View User Notes About Self Yes No

from no to yes, then you can see your user notes and see when they break rules and anything else

like atm i've had i think like 3 pm's (one from november) and two this year, but then i'm being threatened about being banned for being negative or something, if it wasn't for someone telling me this on msn i wouldn't have a clue?

[xxMATTGxx]

Could you do a 5 minute job, edit the group perms

Can View User Notes About Self Yes No

from no to yes, then you can see your user notes and see when they break rules and anything else

like atm i've had i think like 3 pm's (one from november) and two this year, but then i'm being threatened about being banned for being negative or something, if it wasn't for someone telling me this on msn i wouldn't have a clue?

Funny that, that isn't even on your usernotes.

[Immenseman]

Since september 08 you've had 23 user notes - the usernotes include polite pms given, warnings, signature oversizes etc, so you may not have had a PM always

That just supports my point. I obviously can't remember exact number but I don't think I've even had 12 or so PMs about my behaviour in that time seeing as I was staff for some of it I can't have been all that bad.


Correct. I also mentioned not all usernotes need a PM to the user as some usernotes can contain other information. For example; "If user breaks "rule here" contact "whoever" for them to be placed on auto ban" Where the user doesn't actually need to know about that. Although this isn't the case with your own situation.

Side note: People shouldn't really have usernotes for the same rule breaking more than once, unless it was something like a signature oversize.

Exactly. I was surprised when Nvrspk4 told me I had usernotes for the same rule breaking. I assumed it would be upgraded to a warning/infraction. Now you've told me that is the case maybe you and whoever can make sure moderators are clear about this because it's evident they haven't been doing so.


As robbie said a PM is sent with every usernote, because really the point is to PM the user about the issue, as a polite reminder, the usernote is technically just a record of the PM.. and most usernotes are just carbon copies of the PM.

The system we are told to use is PM the user if they have no record of the rule break before then to record this PM as a usernote, if they already have a usernote with a PM reminding them not to break the particular rule, then they are issued a warning, if they already have a warning it then turns into an infraction.

I think one of the biggest problems with usernotes is unlike infractions & warnings, they don't expire. So it's a permanent record, which as you say, if you had a usernote for trolling dated back to Dec 2008, and you were trolling the forum today, would it be fair to give you a profile-visible warning straight away - but I suppose that depends on the moderator & their judgement.

I think in moderator's PMs we should make it clear that records of the PM being sent are being made, because there's no point in letting users see their usernotes because really they should be getting the PMs, then again there is the arguement if a user has so many, how can they keep track because obviously PMs are not permanent.

Looking at your usernotes, I'd say less than half of them would be taken into consideration when issuing sanctions, mainly due to some of them dating far back.
A PM isn't sent with every user note though, that's the problem. Once or twice is human error, people will forget things. This isn't once or twice though. Like Robbie! said I've received 23 user notes, I've had around 10 PMs I'd guess, that isn't on.

I had no idea I had so many. Maybe when it got to 15 or so I should have been sent a PM telling me it was too many. I don't understand how communication (other than catzsy) has been allowed to get so poor. It's ludicrous that so many can build up without the user having any idea.

Then one day someone turns around and says "any more and you're banned" you don't really expect that. If that person actually did it after 15 user notes and said this is your last warning it'd be understandable. Why on Earth would you wait until the user should be banned before telling them that they should be banned and moderators will be keeping a closer eye on you.

If all moderators and management did their job to the rule book, this wouldn't happen. However, that hasn't been the case. I wonder how many times this has happened with other people but they haven't mentioned it like I have.

[xxMATTGxx]

Exactly. I was surprised when Nvrspk4 told me I had usernotes for the same rule breaking. I assumed it would be upgraded to a warning/infraction. Now you've told me that is the case maybe you and whoever can make sure moderators are clear about this because it's evident they haven't been doing so.

We shall be having talks for sure. ;)



If all moderators and management did their job to the rule book, this wouldn't happen. However, that hasn't been the case. I wonder how many times this has happened with other people but they haven't mentioned it like I have.

Like who for that matter?

[Hecktix]

As far as I can see Jake all your usernotes (in 2009) are just copies of PMs, apart from the odd couple which are extremely minor rule breaks (noted by people of superior authority not just a moderator) and they even say on the note "PM not needed".

You're talking VERY minor rule breaks for that though that you didn't do anything specifically wrong, it's just been noted for record i think?

[Immenseman]

Could you do a 5 minute job, edit the group perms

Can View User Notes About Self Yes No

from no to yes, then you can see your user notes and see when they break rules and anything else

like atm i've had i think like 3 pm's (one from november) and two this year, but then i'm being threatened about being banned for being negative or something, if it wasn't for someone telling me this on msn i wouldn't have a clue?

That'd require too much common sense. I think we should be able to see our user notes too or at least ensure a PM is sent every time. I don't care if this is supposed to be done. It isn't being done ATM.


We shall be having talks for sure. ;)




Like who for that matter?

That's good you'll be talking to them and ensure that there is clarity on the matter. In this instance I'm on about the AFM. If he had actually looked back on my account he would of seen I was banned in the last year and have been staff in the last year. So he shouldn't be mentioning user notes, infractions and warnings that happened a year ago when I've already been punished for such offences. It makes absolutely no sense.

That's what I mean about looking through what has happened before jumping to conclusions. He also said I got away with things when I was staff. Again, if he'd looked into it he would have seen I was punished numerous times. He didn't. He jumped to conclusions and got it wrong.


As far as I can see Jake all your usernotes (in 2009) are just copies of PMs, apart from the odd couple which are extremely minor rule breaks (noted by people of superior authority not just a moderator) and they even say on the note "PM not needed".

You're talking VERY minor rule breaks for that though that you didn't do anything specifically wrong, it's just been noted for record i think?

How many have I had in 2009? If it's just been minor offences this year then why has all this been started now. You can't drag things up from 2008 because I was banned in 2008 for having too many, end of 2008. So surely the user notes that should be taken into account are the ones that have happened this year. I was staff for 2 months this year so it can't be anything hideous.

I was told I had loads yet I know that other members have 18/19 who have been banned, like I have. At the end of the day how can I have so many yet so little infractions/warnings which the ban system is placed around.

[xxMATTGxx]

Could you do a 5 minute job, edit the group perms

Can View User Notes About Self Yes No

from no to yes, then you can see your user notes and see when they break rules and anything else

like atm i've had i think like 3 pm's (one from november) and two this year, but then i'm being threatened about being banned for being negative or something, if it wasn't for someone telling me this on msn i wouldn't have a clue?

Yes that is more than less a 5 minute job and can be easily done but it would cause too much fuss and arguments when people start reading their usernotes and disagreements and so on will be thrown at the moderator and management departments.

[Immenseman]

Yes that is more than less a 5 minute job and can be easily done but it would cause too much fuss and arguments when people start reading their usernotes and disagreements and so on will be thrown at the moderator and management departments.
Only a cause will be fussed if they're unfair. It's like they're being hid so we can't see so we don't cause a fuss. However, if it was all in the open then such a fuss wouldn't be caused and people would behave better. If I knew I had so many - I wasn't even aware I had 5 - then I would have ensured that I didn't get any more and this would never have happened.

[Hecktix]

Before the PM you are querying you had 12 usernotes in 2009.

Only 3 of them appear that a PM might not have been sent, the other 9 are carbon copies of PMs.

[mat64]

Whilst we're talking usernotes, are my old ones still there? :P

[Immenseman]

Before the PM you are querying you had 12 usernotes in 2009.

Only 3 of them appear that a PM might not have been sent, the other 9 are carbon copies of PMs.
That's still 25% not being sent. I don't care if they say "PM not needed". A PM should be sent anyway because it's my account and I'm a member. I guarantee if I could see every single one not every one would be valid.

Maybe that's why we can't see them to paper over the cracks in a poor moderation system. Imagine that you were told you were going to be sent to prison but not allowed to see all the evidence. Obviously, it's not like that but I think it's a decent comparison to get people to see my point.

[xxMATTGxx]

Whilst we're talking usernotes, are my old ones still there? :P

No your clean xD.

[Immenseman]

Also, maybe they shouldn't be kept forever, user notes that is. If I was banned in Decemeber 2008 for getting too many and now Garion is saying I have too many over the last year. So he's counting the ones before I was banned for having too many and the ones after, which is stupid.

If he hadn't said over the last year it wouldn't have mattered. It's ludicrous that he can count things I've already been punished for.

In the PM he gave a number of warnings and infractions. Was that counting reversed ones? As I mentioned 60% of the 5 warning/infractions I can see on my user CP, have been reversed which speaks volumes in the level of moderating.

[leah]

I think one of the biggest problems with usernotes is unlike infractions & warnings, they don't expire. So it's a permanent record, which as you say, if you had a usernote for trolling dated back to Dec 2008, and you were trolling the forum today, would it be fair to give you a profile-visible warning straight away - but I suppose that depends on the moderator & their judgement.
I was going to raise this point, so seeing that a moderator has also raised the point shows that there is a problem. What if someone has 2 usernotes for the same offence and is then warned for that offence... surely they have been punished for that offence warranting the user notes to be removed. As they are permanant, even if you've already been punished for some of them, you might be re-punished - this is definitely not fair and leaves the member ambiguous on the situation.

I think usernotes should expire, once a member has been punished for something they already have usernotes on.

edit: lol clearly Jake has the same view :P

[mat64]

No your clean xD.
Awwh, that's a shame, that place used to be my clipboard practically. Others chose to use MADs usernotes however :P.

[Hecktix]

That's still 25% not being sent. I don't care if they say "PM not needed". A PM should be sent anyway because it's my account and I'm a member. I guarantee if I could see every single one not every one would be valid.

Maybe that's why we can't see them to paper over the cracks in a poor moderation system. Imagine that you were told you were going to be sent to prison but not allowed to see all the evidence. Obviously, it's not like that but I think it's a decent comparison to get people to see my point.

The usernotes you haven't been PM'd for are mainly just notes to moderators & nothing for you to worry about.

You were a department manager, when you discussed members of your staff with your asst manager or an AGM, did you tell each staff memeber exactly what was discussed?

[Immenseman]

The usernotes you haven't been PM'd for are mainly just notes to moderators & nothing for you to worry about.

You were a department manager, when you discussed members of your staff with your asst manager or an AGM, did you tell each staff memeber exactly what was discussed?
I bet I got one today? Am I right? In the PM I was told it was an obvious joke, hence the lack of a warning/infraction. Thus if I did get one today it was for joking, is joking against the rules?

Regarding the staff thing. If the matter was about their position or them breaking rules then yes - of course I let them know so they could alter their behaviour. Unlike some managers, I wouldn't gossip about my staff or people I was dealing with.

[Hecktix]

It must be noted in this thread that usernotes are NOT in any way a means of punishment.

[Immenseman]

It must be noted in this thread that usernotes are NOT in any way a means of punishment.
Why exactly are they being used against me for a banning? :rolleyes: No wonder users are kept in the dark, I don't think anyone knows what exactly is going on.

Things need some clarity in order to work. It needs to be addressed, I'm getting different messages from different people. I don't think anyone is 100% sure. This isn't meant to be a dig, it just needs sorting.

[scottish]

Yes that is more than less a 5 minute job and can be easily done but it would cause too much fuss and arguments when people start reading their usernotes and disagreements and so on will be thrown at the moderator and management departments.

I fail to see why? as your saying a PM is sent with every usernote so surely if they wanted to argue we could do regardless as we'd receive the PM surely? :S

[Agnostic Bear]

It must be noted in this thread that usernotes are NOT in any way a means of punishment.

Since when have you cared about the forum?

On topic:

Hxf should just follow Something Awful in ban/warnings etc.

Have probations and bans, probations stop you posting for a certain amount of time, and bans obviously ban you. Also have all bans/probations public so people get the extra humiliation and are discouraged from doing it again.

[Hecktix]

Since when have you cared about the forum?

On topic:

Hxf should just follow Something Awful in ban/warnings etc.

Have probations and bans, probations stop you posting for a certain amount of time, and bans obviously ban you. Also have all bans/probations public so people get the extra humiliation and are discouraged from doing it again.

Pardon at your former comment?

Erm.. don't we already do that? Cautions? Bans?

[Agnostic Bear]

Erm.. don't we already do that? Cautions? Bans?

No, it's not public and it's not hard enough.

[scottish]

No, it's not public and it's not hard enough.

wouldn't really work cause you'd get the kids

"LOLOL I GOT A INFRACTION LOL IM KL KID MANZ"

and would try and get more infractions thinking they're cool :P

[Agnostic Bear]

wouldn't really work cause you'd get the kids

"LOLOL I GOT A INFRACTION LOL IM KL KID MANZ"

and would try and get more infractions thinking they're cool :P

Then they get banned for being an asshat.

[mat64]

wouldn't really work cause you'd get the kids

"LOLOL I GOT A INFRACTION LOL IM KL KID MANZ"

and would try and get more infractions thinking they're cool :P
Then they'd get banned eventually, if people already saw warnings/infractions as something to brag about they would. Doesn't matter that they are currently private, doesn't stop people saying they got one for whatever if they wanted to.

[FlyingJesus]

What so you want an announcement made for every ban and caution? Anyone that posts will be seen with the strike through their name (or in italics) and the changed usertitle which is pretty public as far as I can tell. If it's someone who doesn't post much then no, people won't see it, but chances are no-one cares about that person anyway because they aren't a regular poster. There is no advantage to that.

On the main topic, I had a PM from Rosie last night not as an actual warning but as a verbal one about insulting people, and she actually stated that since it was my 3rd offence for the same thing, a further breach of the rule would result in a warning or infraction. This is the right way to go about it I feel - I don't keep most of my PMs that are warnings and such because I don't see any need to usually (if they're deserved) but being told in the PM that it's my 3rd offence and that there will be a real punishment if it happens again just keeps me out of the dark.

That said, I was given a warning on the 26th for insulting other members and I've certainly not had 2 PMs between that and Rosie's yesterday, so either the warning was given wrongly or the usernotes weren't updated to show that I'd been punished - in which case I guess the warning's still wrong but the mod wasn't to know. I don't mind really because it's my only active one but it does seem to imply that the same usernotes are used multiple times for punishments rather than being "struck off" as would seem logical after a warning or infraction has been handed out

[xxMATTGxx]

I fail to see why? as your saying a PM is sent with every usernote so surely if they wanted to argue we could do regardless as we'd receive the PM surely? :S

I have also said that not every usernote needs a PM to the user.

[scottish]

I still fail to see the problem in letting us see OUR usernotes? because a user may argue with the mod; they could do that regardless and if they did they'd get another infraction? so doesn't matter either way...also means we know when we're on final warning or whatever. and as a usernote isn't a "warning" as such then not much members will argue (which they could get an infraction for) a point about something that pretty much won't do nothing? :S

[lick]

Since when have you cared about the forum?



since he became a mod.

Also are you serious with 23? Maybe the mods ain't cheking them and just keep issueing them for the same one.

Also on the subject of usernotes anyone wanna tell me how many i have?

[Hecktix]

since he became a mod.

Also are you serious with 23? Maybe the mods ain't cheking them and just keep issueing them for the same one.

Also on the subject of usernotes anyone wanna tell me how many i have?

10 ranging from may - midjune, where you were then dealt with infractions for repeated offences.

[Catzsy]

What so you want an announcement made for every ban and caution? Anyone that posts will be seen with the strike through their name (or in italics) and the changed usertitle which is pretty public as far as I can tell. If it's someone who doesn't post much then no, people won't see it, but chances are no-one cares about that person anyway because they aren't a regular poster. There is no advantage to that.

On the main topic, I had a PM from Rosie last night not as an actual warning but as a verbal one about insulting people, and she actually stated that since it was my 3rd offence for the same thing, a further breach of the rule would result in a warning or infraction. This is the right way to go about it I feel - I don't keep most of my PMs that are warnings and such because I don't see any need to usually (if they're deserved) but being told in the PM that it's my 3rd offence and that there will be a real punishment if it happens again just keeps me out of the dark.

That said, I was given a warning on the 26th for insulting other members and I've certainly not had 2 PMs between that and Rosie's yesterday, so either the warning was given wrongly or the usernotes weren't updated to show that I'd been punished - in which case I guess the warning's still wrong but the mod wasn't to know. I don't mind really because it's my only active one but it does seem to imply that the same usernotes are used multiple times for punishments rather than being "struck off" as would seem logical after a warning or infraction has been handed out

That was actually my fault, Tom. I didn't check the infraction record before sending the pm so in fact the person who issued the warning was right. I do think, however, that this is a matter of judgment & common sense. Taking these out of the equation in moderating would not be the way to go I feel, otherwise somebody grossly insulting somebody would be treated in the same way as somebody calling somebody an idiot. Having a too rigid system would
rule out this to a certain extent. Therefore it maybe possible that there is more than one user note per rulebreak as the rule break maybe minor but I agree a pm should be sent if it could result in a warning/infraction.

The sanction applied should fit whatever the rule break is as fairly as possible which is no different to the justice system really. You would get a heavy penalty for burglary but would have to shoplift a few times before getting the heavy penalty so taking that example somebody grossly insulting somebody would get an infraction but somebody calling somebody an idiot may have to do it more than once to get again to get the same infraction. That's just an example.

Some are comments that perhaps don't need a sanction but somebody needs to be aware that somebody has been offended so they can avoid that situation again. This particuarly happens in spam which can be hard to moderate because of the friends' banter. This can sometimes be a no-win situation for the Mods because a warning can be issued only to be reversed because the person against whom the remark was made agrees it was a joke.

I do think, on a personal note, that user notes should have a limited shelf life. If somebody made a rude comment 12 months ago then under the old system it would not have counted. Under the old system once you had been banned you did essentially have a clean slate when you returned but if the member continued to rule break the ban next time would be heavier. The automatic banning system does work quite well in this instance. For this reason I do not think expired warnings/infractions should be counted either. Expired infractions did not count under the old system otherwise what is the point of expiry? I know that the system is being looked at and this is a pretty constructive thread to help produce a system that is fair, accountable and beyond reproach. Above all we need a forum that is enjoyable for everyone to post on. This can be hard to balance on occasions.

[lick]

10 ranging from may - midjune, where you were then dealt with infractions for repeated offences.

Then how come i got loads of infraction like the first week, if you said i only got them in june :S:S

[Hecktix]

I do think, on a personal note, that user notes should have a limited shelf life. If somebody made a rude comment 12 months ago then under the old system it would not have counted. Under the old system once you had been banned you did essentially have a clean slate when you returned. For this reason I do not think expired warnings/infractions should be counted either. Expired infractions did not count under the old system otherwise what is the point of expiry? I know that the system is being looked at and this is a pretty constructive thread to help produce a system that is fair, accountable and beyond reproach. Above all we need a forum that is enjoyable for everyone to post on. This can be hard to balance on occasions.

I think usernotes should be valid for a 3 - 6 month period.
For instance if a moderator PM'd a Polite Reminder of the rules to Member A for calling Member B an idiot, then a month later, Member A called Member C an idiot it could easily be said Member A has ignored the moderators warning.

However 3 months down the line this may not be the case, could be a simple case of forgetting, PMs being deleted in time etc.

As for what you say about expired infractions Rosie, I don't count them when I'm moderating so I hope i've done that right :P

[scottish]

How many do i have? o.0

[Hecktix]

142456

This isn't a "how many user notes do i have" thread :P

[scottish]

You replied to previous users so i'll ask aswell.

[xxMATTGxx]

You replied to previous users so i'll ask aswell.

Its a two-digit number and is also known as a very unlucky number. Have a guess. :)

[Wootzeh]

how many do i have!!?!!

[scottish]

I've received maybe 3-4 pm's and have 13 user notes? lmao

Is there anyway i can request to see the usernotes? as i'd love to know why i have 13 :)

[xxMATTGxx]

I've received maybe 3-4 pm's and have 13 user notes? lmao

Is there anyway i can request to see the usernotes? as i'd love to know why i have 13 :)

I hardly think that is correct to be honest looking at what usernotes you have.

[lick]

I hardly think that is correct to be honest looking at what usernotes you have.

Maybe he is telling a fib, like when he said he was forced to view that thread when he was in "feedback" and no-one else was forced until they viewed the Teen forum. :rolleyes::P

[scottish]

lmao, no.

I think i've received one from catzsy and one from :Mobile

I received 2 PM's which were ignored as it was complaints about rick roll/mass alerts as at the time it wasn't against the rules so they wouldn't be usernotes.

thats about it i think?

So any way i can see them? o.0

[mat64]

So any way i can see them? o.0
If members were allowed to view their own usernotes then they would already be able to do so

[Robbie]

I've received maybe 3-4 pm's and have 13 user notes? lmao

Is there anyway i can request to see the usernotes? as i'd love to know why i have 13 :)

I think people are forgetting usernotes go back to when they first joined. In this case, yours go back to October last year. Obviously you're not going to remember every PM you've had since then.

[xxMATTGxx]

lmao, no.

I think i've received one from catzsy and one from :Mobile

I received 2 PM's which were ignored as it was complaints about rick roll/mass alerts as at the time it wasn't against the rules so they wouldn't be usernotes.

thats about it i think?

So any way i can see them? o.0

I'm sorry but that can't be correct. The usernotes on your profile seem all correct and you should of have PM's for nearly all of them. Not just ones from Catszy and :Mobile because they weren't moderators at the end of 2008.


If members were allowed to view their own usernotes then they would already be able to do so

Correct to be honest. I don't see this coming available any time soon but lets see what Nvr says really. :).

[Robbie]

I can't see viewing your own usernotes being implemented or working well. I doubt nvr's going to allow it (lol) and it'd just make people moan even more than they do currently when they get an infraction.

Viewing your own usernotes is of no benefit to you, I can't see why anyone would want to see them? Maybe you could be able to see how many you have, idk?

Usernotes are all valid, else they'd be removed, because they're looked at when you report an infraction or warning. I don't see why people want to see their usernotes when it just holds a record of their behaviour on the forum. It's like a behaviour system at school, would you demand to see that. Because every school I've been to certainly don't let you.

[The Professor]

I read the first few posts in the thread up to FlyingJesus' but not past that because they got too long, so sorry if what I say has been said before!

When I designed the system, the theory was for usernotes to only be used as a record for previous rulebreaking. So, for example, if Jake got a PM pointing out to him that calling another member an idiot isn't acceptable, it would be noted in the usernotes with either a copy/paste of the PM or just "User PM'd about insulting other members" (usually a copy/paste because its quicker). On that basis a user should know about most usernotes they have because they'll have received a PM on the same topic. The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him" or something like that, and a user generally doesn't get too many of them before being banned.

So if you've managed to accumulate 23 usernotes (there's only like 10 infractable rules so that's pretty impressive!) you've either done a lot to piss off management (which you should know about!) or there's some weird stuff going on!

[Inseriousity.]

I don't think I have any, well I've recieved no PMs anyway. I'm such an angel. :eusa_whis

Regardless of the rule, PMs should be sent with all usernotes. That way, the rule-breaker has the chance to change and no-one can say "Hey I didn't know about that! That's unfair!" so it's a win-win situation. It only takes 2 minutes to send a PM, after all :)

[Robbie]

I read the first few posts in the thread up to FlyingJesus' but not past that because they got too long, so sorry if what I say has been said before!

When I designed the system, the theory was for usernotes to only be used as a record for previous rulebreaking. So, for example, if Jake got a PM pointing out to him that calling another member an idiot isn't acceptable, it would be noted in the usernotes with either a copy/paste of the PM or just "User PM'd about insulting other members" (usually a copy/paste because its quicker). On that basis a user should know about most usernotes they have because they'll have received a PM on the same topic. The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him" or something like that, and a user generally doesn't get too many of them before being banned.

So if you've managed to accumulate 23 usernotes (there's only like 10 infractable rules so that's pretty impressive!) you've either done a lot to piss off management (which you should know about!) or there's some weird stuff going on!

They're all for rulebreaks. :P PM's and Warnings.

[scottish]

I think people are forgetting usernotes go back to when they first joined. In this case, yours go back to October last year. Obviously you're not going to remember every PM you've had since then.

Yes, i can.


I'm sorry but that can't be correct. The usernotes on your profile seem all correct and you should of have PM's for nearly all of them. Not just ones from Catszy and :Mobile because they weren't moderators at the end of 2008.



Correct to be honest. I don't see this coming available any time soon but lets see what Nvr says really. :).

Oh my bad, i may have received an additional one from Yoshi in 08 for calling someone an idiot which i also received a warning for, other than that nothing? o.0

Could i possibly see them (c+p or something)

[Mikey]

Do I have any usernotes and if yes what for? ;)

[Robbie]

Do I have any usernotes and if yes what for? ;)

You have 4.

[Mikey]

You have 4.

lmao, what for?

[Robbie]

I'm not posting them because that would be posting private information :P. I doubt I'm allowed to tell you via PM either.

[e5]

A PM is sent with every usernote (at least I send one anyway, and the other mods should), I'll comment on the rest in a minute
i don't think you can really talk for the rest of the mods on the team, because by the obvious lack of communication between everyone, how would you possibly know that all mods do this?

[mat64]

i don't think you can really talk for the rest of the mods on the team, because by the obvious lack of communication between everyone, how would you possibly know that all mods do this?
Did you not read the post properly?

A PM is sent with every usernote (at least I send one anyway, and the other mods should), I'll comment on the rest in a minute
He states that all moderators should sent a PM, if they aren't sending them then they aren't doing their job properly.

[Robbie]

Did you not read the post properly?

He states that all moderators should sent a PM, if they aren't sending them then they aren't doing their job properly.

By the way, when I say EVERY usernote, that excludes ones like 'Watch out, any more misbehaviour and temp ban' etc. The ones about breaking rules and sent PM's I always PM the user about.

[mat64]

By the way, when I say EVERY usernote, that excludes ones like 'Watch out, any more misbehaviour and temp ban' etc. The ones about breaking rules and sent PM's I always PM the user about.
That's what I understood it to be ;)

[Wootzeh]

how many do i haveeeee?

[Immenseman]

I can't see viewing your own usernotes being implemented or working well. I doubt nvr's going to allow it (lol) and it'd just make people moan even more than they do currently when they get an infraction.

Viewing your own usernotes is of no benefit to you, I can't see why anyone would want to see them? Maybe you could be able to see how many you have, idk?

Usernotes are all valid, else they'd be removed, because they're looked at when you report an infraction or warning. I don't see why people want to see their usernotes when it just holds a record of their behaviour on the forum. It's like a behaviour system at school, would you demand to see that. Because every school I've been to certainly don't let you.

My school let us see our behaviour record so we knew what we were doing wrong. I just don't see why I have had so little warning and infractions in comparison to some people but yet I have more user notes that anybody (I gather anyway).

We'd like to see our user notes because then we'd know what we'd done wrong, what is so hard to understand. I wasn't even aware that I had 5 user notes let alone 23 or whatever it may be.


I read the first few posts in the thread up to FlyingJesus' but not past that because they got too long, so sorry if what I say has been said before!

When I designed the system, the theory was for usernotes to only be used as a record for previous rulebreaking. So, for example, if Jake got a PM pointing out to him that calling another member an idiot isn't acceptable, it would be noted in the usernotes with either a copy/paste of the PM or just "User PM'd about insulting other members" (usually a copy/paste because its quicker). On that basis a user should know about most usernotes they have because they'll have received a PM on the same topic. The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him" or something like that, and a user generally doesn't get too many of them before being banned.

So if you've managed to accumulate 23 usernotes (there's only like 10 infractable rules so that's pretty impressive!) you've either done a lot to piss off management (which you should know about!) or there's some weird stuff going on!

I don't know about anything. That's the problem. One moderator tells me user notes aren't punishments and then the Assistant Forum Manager tells me I'm going to be banned due to the amount I have and should be banned already.

How are members supposed to know what's going on when nobody in moderating positions knows themselves.

how many do i haveeeee?
Weirdly, you were one of the two members I got someone to check for me to see if you had more than me :8

[Wootzeh]

and did i

[Immenseman]

and did i
Unfortunately for me, no.

[Robbie]

No, you have 18.

[Immenseman]

I have also said that not every usernote needs a PM to the user.
So if every user note isn't even all that important then why is my amount being used against me? Like invincible said - they're not even punishments because I have had one added today (I think) when the moderator themselves knew it was a joke. Yet, they have to add one. So technically I have a user note for joking.

I think every user note should either have a PM issued with it. The PM needs to be clearer. Explaining that a user note has been added to your account. Alternatively, allow us to see our user notes.

I think people are coming to a consensus that they should be wiped after a certain amount of time and everyone I've spoken to agrees with me it's stupid Garion is mentioning the user notes that I've already been banned for.

[Catzsy]

I read the first few posts in the thread up to FlyingJesus' but not past that because they got too long, so sorry if what I say has been said before!

When I designed the system, the theory was for usernotes to only be used as a record for previous rulebreaking. So, for example, if Jake got a PM pointing out to him that calling another member an idiot isn't acceptable, it would be noted in the usernotes with either a copy/paste of the PM or just "User PM'd about insulting other members" (usually a copy/paste because its quicker). On that basis a user should know about most usernotes they have because they'll have received a PM on the same topic. The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him" or something like that, and a user generally doesn't get too many of them before being banned.

So if you've managed to accumulate 23 usernotes (there's only like 10 infractable rules so that's pretty impressive!) you've either done a lot to piss off management (which you should know about!) or there's some weird stuff going on!

You designed the whole system :O. In my view the moderation guide is much less helpful than it used to be - everything used to be clarified down to finer points such as to what exactly was a pointless post. It was created through experience of earlier Forum Managers but added to, as time went on and a copy of all Sierks directions were there to aid interpretation but no longer, which is a pity.

There are in fact 18 infractable rules none of which have changed since
I was here before. Don't forget that user notes and pms also go out for Avatars and Signatures which always have a pm first so that can add up. Also we make a user note of pointless posts/spam/double posts/bumping/posting in the wrong forum for which nothing is done unless unless it becomes a regular occurence by the member. Also infractions/warnings expire so a pm will go out again if the member hasn't broken the rule for a while. So over a period of time the user notes add up. It is not a question of pissing management off or anything weird going on.

I wondered where this came from: "User PM'd about insulting other members". I was always taught that the first rule of moderating was to make sure that you have the evidence to back up any pm/infraction/warning that you issued otherwise it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. In fact an infraction or warning are reversed if the content is removed before issuing so if you put"User PM'd about insulting other members" with a link for a post where the content has been removed it is not very helpful for those deciding on any course of action.

You also say this:
The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him"
These are the ones that the member really ought to know about via Pms/warnings/infractions right from the start and the automatic banning system should kick in pretty quickly in these circumstances - I do not personally see a need to mark a user note with this. I also think the word 'troll' is quite offensive in its own right and am pleased that the phrase seems to be dying out on the forum.

@Jake - you do not have a user note for joking. We are talking about spam here. Yes I do believe you didn't mean the comments to be serious but if they offend somebody else they are not a joke so it pays to be mindful of who you banter with or take the consequences.

[Jin]

With the user notes, apparently I have way too many. This is the problem. People who have 15+, I know other members have that many should be banned is what I gathered after speaking to nvrspk4. Right, how are we supposed to know how many user notes we have picked up? I really don't understand this. I had no idea if I had 21 or 3.

because PM's being sent are generally the usernote itself.

EG:

Dear Jake,
Don't do this here, its liable to offend.

Regards,

Steve
Forum Moderator.



I spoke to the General and Forum manager about this already. Nvrspk4 told me that usually PMs are sent with user notes to alert the users they have broken the rules. I now understand this isn't always the case but it often is. I can confirm that I have had no way near this many PMs.

You have recieved AT LEAST 14 PM's regarding your 20 usernotes, the way I can tell is because the moderators have literally copied and paste the PM they have sent you as the details of the usernote.

I think it should be mandatory - every time a user note is placed on your account you should receive a PM telling you so or at least more regularly than at the moment.

Well in a way they kind of technically do I mean yeah they may not tell you that it will result in a usernote but when they do send you a PM generally it will be logged as a usernote.

It's all well and good telling me I have 20+ user notes and that it isn't acceptable. However, if I had been sent a PM with each and every one then I wouldn't have so many.

I am sorry Jake, but I fail to see this. Your account has numerous number of Usernotes, Infractions and Warnings associated with it and yet you continue to break the rules and more often then not you tread a very fine line in your posts between just barely acceptable and breaking the rules.

I personally see this as a communication failure on your behalf. Rather than threatening users with banning them because they've clocked up too many how about you spend your valuable time doing something worth while and change the rule so that moderators should PM the user each time a user note is issued. I don't care about time restraints - you shouldn't implement a system that isn't practical.

Let me break it down for you.


You offend -> We PM -> We create Usernote with contents of PM

Simple and Effective, I think it is time very well spent. We notify the users quite nicely with a PM telling them the issue and this PM is what is generally logged in the usernotes.

We send you too many PM's you get too many usernotes. Simple solution. STOP BREAKING THE RULES!


We're the members, some of us paying member yet you can't even spend approximately 30 seconds sending a PM telling us we have been issued a user note for posting inappropriately for example. That would eradicate the communication issue and let users know they've broken the equivocal rules.

*sigh* Once again, the usernotes are generally a Log of the PM's we have sent you so..... yeah we do inform you.

Also, I then asked nvrspk4 to tell me what some of my user notes were for. He gave me a list of a few of the breaches. Numerous of them were for the same offence. Thus I think if a moderator is going to issue a user note to a member for trolling lets say and they see they already have one for trolling then surely they can make it a warning instead. At least with warnings we can see how many we've built up and acknowledge them and alter our behaviour to ensure we don't fall foul of the same offence again. I have numerous user notes for the same offence. I'm not even talking user notes for the same thing twice. I've had user notes 3/4 times for the same offence, surely I should be warned for it after acquiring a user note for it twice.

Actually as far as I am aware your trolling offences were PM'd to you, how do I know? because the usernotes related to this contain the exact copy of what has been sent to you.


Again, is this time restraints? Can moderators not be bothered to look through the user notes before deciding on what negative sanction to issue? That's the only conclusion I can come to. I don't want moderators to be cutting corners because it's just poor service to members, who I will reiterate keep this forum open. How hard can it be to see a member has had 3 user notes for the same offence? Instead of whacking another one on there which they won't even know about how about adding a warning or even an infraction so the member is aware.


Yet again you are PM'd about the "offence" before it becomes a usernote. So this paragraph like a few others yet again is redundant and repetitve.

Another point is you use things from over a year ago?! In my PM it mentioned things that happened 12 months ago. I said I didn't want to mention my individual situation but I assume that's the way it goes for all members. For a start, I have been banned in December 2008, yet you still look at things before then to try and ban me again. Do you always punish people for things they've already been punished for.

Depends if they haven't learned from it from the original ban.

EG:
You troll -> Get a caution -> Troll Again -> Get a temp -> Troll again -> Perm Ban.

The way the PM was sent was rude and it was no coincedence it was sent yesterday after I proved a certain person wrong and they had to send numerous PMs to get their point across and finally their friend listened and decided to take action :rolleyes:.

Not entirely sure what that is about..........

At the moment, I've got 3 infractions which is more than I've ever had, yet you basically say I'm the worst behaved on the forum. If I was so ill behaved I wouldn't create this thread to try and improve things for myself and others.

So far you haven't really made any sort of constructive suggestion.

I don't see how I have had so many user notes yet so little warnings and infractions. The warnings and infractions I have had have often been removed or downgraded from infractions to warnings etc. I can see the last 5 on my user CP and 3 out of the 5 have been removed. Does that mean 60% of all moderating on my account is wrong? No, that would be unfair but you can't throw "facts" around without digging deeper and looking at each and every account individually. I was staff in January 2009, personally appointed by the General Manager so my behaviour can't be all that bad yet you say I've been so ill behaved over the last 12 months, I was still staff like 3 months ago until I resigned. Not fired, resigned. Whether I was going to be fired is another story :eusa_whis

Seems irrelevant to me.

All of my points seem to come down to skipping corners. I don't think this is right for members to have to endure. There are many people who would happily spend the time being a moderator and would do the task in front of them with depth, an element which is evidently lacking at the present time.

To conclude my points for those who don't want to read (I don't blame you):


Send a PM with every user note You seem to have this in the wrong order. THE USERNOTE IS THE PM!
Look at previous user notes for the same offence before adding another one Yet again this is a log of offences commited on your account.
If a member has 2 user notes about a rule they've broken again - issue a warning/infraction instead We will probably take that on board. Oh wait we already do.......

Before banning a member or threatening to ban, look into their account first and don't jump to conclusions In all honestly with all that being said I still reckon your account is due a temp ban or something and considering I am the most placid person when it comes to user banning that says a lot.


You can see my reasoning for such points throughout my post. I just added that for people who don't wish to read through the whole post, that was just to conclude.


This is my stand on the whole thing. It seems you are mistaken as to what a usernote is which ultimately at the end of the day is an easy way for us to log moderation activity about an individual account.

For instance.

You make a rude comment which doesnt deserve a warning or infraction but a mod still decides to PM you or you have created an offence a mod wants to pm you about it.

The PM itself will be logged in the usernotes.

To finalise this post here is a quote from the moderation guide.


Send the rule breaker a polite PM explaining what they have done wrong. It does however have to address the rule breaking, explain why it is not allowed and warn them of future consequences should the PM be ignored.

A usernote should be added with a copy/paste of the PM with the heading “Rule broken: [Rule].” For example, “Rule broken: insulting another forum member.” PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE REMOVING THE CONTENT OF THE POST YOU MUST COPY IT INTO THE PM AND USER NOTE AS ALL THE EVIDENCE TO BACK YOU UP IN THE CASE OF A COMPLAINT WILL HAVE BEEN REMOVED.


Based upon all that has been said this thread seems utterly pointless and seems to have escalated from a misunderstanding of what a "usernote" essentially is, which at the end of the day is a moderators log of an individual account. Think of it as your permanent record card like you have in school, I personally think the moderation system is very much effective and considering as I do deal with a vast number of the support tickets I do rely on its effectiveness in logging and recording of offences so I can deal with the tickets.

[mat64]

Why are you using usernotes anyway, surely a way to combat this problem (that been users apparently not knowing they have received a notification they have broke a rule) would be to just use the infractions system as it was intended in the first place. That been, warnings serve as a reminder of the forum rules and serve no weight against the member (as a PM+Usernote does at the moment) and an infraction is a punishment for continually breaking the forum rules. This is the way things used to be done and I certainly don't see anything wrong with it, you could give a member 2-3 warnings before you give them an infraction it doesn't really matter atleast then you are ensuring they get notified about a rule break, a automated message though it might be, I can only assume that PM from a moderator is only a C&P job anyway.

This way you would allow users to see what they've done and keep track of it easily, rather than having to go through their inbox. That way if they argument "You never told me I was breaking the rules" came up, you and the member can both clearly see that the warning was issued to them.

[Immenseman]

This is my stand on the whole thing. It seems you are mistaken as to what a usernote is which ultimately at the end of the day is an easy way for us to log moderation activity about an individual account.

For instance.

You make a rude comment which doesnt deserve a warning or infraction but a mod still decides to PM you or you have created an offence a mod wants to pm you about it.

The PM itself will be logged in the usernotes.

To finalise this post here is a quote from the moderation guide.

I'm not mistaken at all. If you'd actually read the entirety of the thread then you'd realise that all of your points had already been raised and been answered, clearly people are skipping corners, again. Makes a splendid change.

So out of 20 user notes I've had 14 PMs yet you say that I've had a PM for every user note. I see once again that somebody doesn't quite understand the system. Nvrspk4 and Mattgarner who deal with them on day to day basis have told me this isn't the case and then you come in here and say it is. This is getting stupid. How am I supposed to know as a member what the hell is going on when not even the people at the top of the ladder give a message with clarity.

You seem to keep reiterating that all user notes are logs of private messages. Once again that has been confirmed not to be the case in this thread, which you should read through before you reply with points that had already been acknowleged.

Going back to 14 PMs out of user notes. Honestly, it's not rocket science. 14 is less 6 than 20 which aids my point. PMs aren't always sent thus we don't know how we're behaving and therefore we can't alter our behaviour - whether we want to or not is irrelevant. It's the fact we're not told. I don't care if this takes an extra 30 seconds of your precious time - members should be treated as individuals because it isn't you or management that keep Hx going, people could do your jobs (regardless of what you think) - it's us, the members. You'd go a long way to remember that, for sure.

About me continuing to break rules. I have 3 infractions at the moment. That's a respectable amount and 1 warning. Sure some have expired but you need 6 to be banned. I always make sure I don't get them because the bottom line remains, I don't want to be banned. I don't know who you are to judge me personally.

I wasn't aware you knew me irl so you can't monitor my charactersitics as much as you'd like to think you can. I wasn't aware I had so many user notes. There is no way of showing. Even in the PMs I have received they haven't told me a user note would be added to my account. You can even check if that's what tickles you.

You seem to keep reiterating that usernotes are logs of PMs. Why haven't I had 23 PMs or whatever it is? Because that isn't how the system works like has been explained in this thread, which you didn't read. It's very ironic you call my posts redundant and repetitive, firstly it merely highlights your maturity. Secondly, I think you'll find you're the one reiterating the same invalid point "usernotes are logs of PMs" - not all of them are. Do you understand that?

It's all well and good telling me how it works in this thread? What about all the others users who won't make a fuss. I'm aware this thread will make me more of a target but if I can get some clarity of the issue (something which is yet to be present to me) then I can at least be happy knowing that other users will be able to understand the system more so than at the moment. It's clear I'm not alone here as every single staff member has told me different things.



You've told me a PM is sent every time.
Nvr said they're not always sent but usually should be.
Matt told me it depends on the situation and offence.
Robbie! told me they should always be sent.
invincible told me they're not even used as punishments

The fact that over 25% of my user notes haven't been PMd to me and 60% of my infractions/warnings that I can see aren't valid seems irrelevant? That speaks volumes for you as a Habbox manager, clearly.


You seem to have this in the wrong order. THE USERNOTE IS THE PM!Clearly not. I haven't had a PM for all user notes.


Yet again this is a log of offences commited on your account.As above.


We will probably take that on board. Oh wait we already do.......Funny how I've bene told this will be looked at. You're telling me I don't have more than 2 user notes for the same thing? Your reply has been sub-standard. I thought Admins were supposed to know what was going on.


In all honestly with all that being said I still reckon your account is due a temp ban or something and considering I am the most placid person when it comes to user banning that says a lot. Because I have 3 infractions and 1 warning and user notes that are permanent and never run out? Great stuff.

You've totally contradicted yourself throughout your post. Not just yourself but other senior members of management throwing the whole situation into even more disrepute than before you replied with points that had already been answered.

This reply answers your points. You're the one confused about what user notes are, not me. It's not your fault, it's all lacking clarity and big improvements need to be made to ensure it's effective.


Why are you using usernotes anyway, surely a way to combat this problem (that been users apparently not knowing they have received a notification they have broke a rule) would be to just use the infractions system as it was intended in the first place. That been, warnings serve as a reminder of the forum rules and serve no weight against the member (as a PM+Usernote does at the moment) and an infraction is a punishment for continually breaking the forum rules. This is the way things used to be done and I certainly don't see anything wrong with it, you could give a member 2-3 warnings before you give them an infraction it doesn't really matter atleast then you are ensuring they get notified about a rule break, a automated message though it might be, I can only assume that PM from a moderator is only a C&P job anyway.

This way you would allow users to see what they've done and keep track of it easily, rather than having to go through their inbox. That way if they argument "You never told me I was breaking the rules" came up, you and the member can both clearly see that the warning was issued to them.

Amen to common sense.

[Jin]

But the member will have been notified before via pm.

If you are suggesting that the members have such a great difficulty to remember to follow the rules that a pm doesnt do its job but we need to rely on permanently visible infractions and warnings if that is the case then I would be quite disappointed in our members.

[Immenseman]

But the member will have been notified before via pm.

If you are suggesting that the members have such a great difficulty to remember to follow the rules that a pm doesnt do its job but we need to rely on permanently visible infractions and warnings if that is the case then I would be quite disappointed in our members.
I haven't had 23 PMs so I haven't been notified. I don't have difficulty to remember the rules. I know what they are and it's how I read them. For example, I have infractions for posting to cause arguments. However, I was replying to other posts. Sure, I played a part in an argument but that's not me breaking the rules intentionally.

If they were always visible then you'd constantly see them. This can even be proven. I don't have many infractions/warnings because I constantly see them. The fact remains user notes are there from September time are too long. I have been punished with a ban (I never had a caution like you said was the first step) so half of my user notes should be eradicated as I have been punished for them. Although, one moderator told me user notes aren't punishments - so what am I supposed to believe?!

[Inseriousity.]

You designed the whole system :O.

He's a legend :D
Which comes first? The PM or the usernote? If the usernote is done first, it may be that the moderator is sidetracked by other things. They are human beings, who make mistakes, just like the numerous amount of usernotes Jake has (20?!! What've you been doing :p). If 14 PMs were sent out, that means that there were 6 that weren't, which is 6 too many*

*Referring to my 'we're only humans and we make mistakes' statement, let's be generous and say 4 too many instead.

I know that it's been said that PMs aren't sent out for everything but I agree with Catzsy (the rest of her post in the quote above). If PMs were sent out, in the majority of cases, I'm sure that behaviour would improve. Immenseman is clearly just a rebel :p

[xxMATTGxx]

He's a legend :D
Which comes first? The PM or the usernote? If the usernote is done first, it may be that the moderator is sidetracked by other things. They are human beings, who make mistakes, just like the numerous amount of usernotes Jake has (20?!! What've you been doing :p). If 14 PMs were sent out, that means that there were 6 that weren't, which is 6 too many*

*Referring to my 'we're only humans and we make mistakes' statement, let's be generous and say 4 too many instead.

I know that it's been said that PMs aren't sent out for everything but I agree with Catzsy (the rest of her post in the quote above). If PMs weren't sent out, in the majority of cases, I'm sure that behaviour would improve. Immenseman is clearly just a rebel :p


The Usernote is like a record of the PM. Although if its very minor some Moderators/Super Moderators send a PM to the user giving them a little reminder rather then adding a usernote to the their profile.

[Immenseman]

He's a legend :D
Which comes first? The PM or the usernote? If the usernote is done first, it may be that the moderator is sidetracked by other things. They are human beings, who make mistakes, just like the numerous amount of usernotes Jake has (20?!! What've you been doing :p). If 14 PMs were sent out, that means that there were 6 that weren't, which is 6 too many*

*Referring to my 'we're only humans and we make mistakes' statement, let's be generous and say 4 too many instead.

I know that it's been said that PMs aren't sent out for everything but I agree with Catzsy (the rest of her post in the quote above). If PMs weren't sent out, in the majority of cases, I'm sure that behaviour would improve. Immenseman is clearly just a rebel :p

If I could see everything that I had done in front of me I wouldn't exactly be proud of it. It would prompt me to be better behaved to ensure I don't break the rules. How can I have numerous usernotes on the same offence without getting a warning/infraction about it is beyond me.

Maybe if the system was used properly then it wouldn't be so bad. It hasn't been and never will be. User notes should either be scrapped or allow users to see them.

[Jin]

If they were always visible then you'd constantly see them. This can even be proven. I don't have many infractions/warnings because I constantly see them. The fact remains user notes are there from September time are too long. I have been punished with a ban (I never had a caution like you said was the first step) so half of my user notes should be eradicated as I have been punished for them. Although, one moderator told me user notes aren't punishments - so what am I supposed to believe?!


*cries*

Okay I will try one more time to clear this one up if I can't then I will officially give up on explaining usernotes.

Okay so first understand these fundamentals.

Usernotes are not a punishment they are logs.

Usernotes log PM's or other information we deem pertinent to the moderation of a user but 95% of the times they are just a record of the PM's sent to a user.

Lets assume this to be a school playground environment with several teachers and several students.

A PM = Verbal action
Usernote = Behaviour Card


Billy pushes over Johnny, then Miss Jones checks the "behaviour card", tells Billy off "VERBALLY" and records it on the "Behaviour Card" to state she has verbally told off Billy.

Later Billy hits Johnny, Miss Smith checks the "behaviour card", tells Billy off "VERBALLY" and records it on the "Behaviour Card" to say she has verbally told off Billy


Finally Billy takes Johnny's lunch, Miss Doe checks the "behaviour card" and then punishes Billy with a detention for bullying Johnny.

Because Miss Doe knows from the "Behaviour Card" that Jones and Smith have both verbally told of Billy for his behaviour.


The usernote itself is not a punishment, but the gaining of too many usernotes will ultimately lead to a punishment.

[lick]

If I could see everything that I had done in front of me I wouldn't exactly be proud of it. It would prompt me to be better behaved to ensure I don't break the rules. How can I have numerous usernotes on the same offence without getting a warning/infraction about it is beyond me.

Maybe if the system was used properly then it wouldn't be so bad. It hasn't been and never will be. User notes should either be scrapped or allow users to see them.

You have infractions but and you still break the rules?? You can see them..

[Immenseman]

*cries*

Okay I will try one more time to clear this one up if I can't then I will officially give up on explaining usernotes.

Okay so first understand these fundamentals.

Usernotes are not a punishment they are logs.

Usernotes log PM's or other information we deem pertinent to the moderation of a user but 95% of the times they are just a record of the PM's sent to a user.

Lets assume this to be a school playground environment with several teachers and several students.

A PM = Verbal action
Usernote = Behaviour Card


Billy pushes over Johnny, then Miss Jones checks the "behaviour card", tells Billy off "VERBALLY" and records it on the "Behaviour Card" to state she has verbally told off Billy.

Later Billy hits Johnny, Miss Smith checks the "behaviour card", tells Billy off "VERBALLY" and records it on the "Behaviour Card" to say she has verbally told off Billy


Finally Billy takes Johnny's lunch, Miss Doe checks the "behaviour card" and then punishes Billy with a detention for bullying Johnny.

Because Miss Doe knows from the "Behaviour Card" that Jones and Smith have both verbally told of Billy for his behaviour.


The usernote itself is not a punishment, but the gaining of too many usernotes will ultimately lead to a punishment.

If that's how it worked, it'd be great. That's not how it's being used so it isn't great, hence the thread. I should have been told I had too many and they were going to result in a ban rather then being sent a PM telling me I already had too many. Poor.

You have infractions but and you still break the rules?? You can see them..
Which supports my point nicely. I have 23 user notes because I can't see them. I have a whole 20 less infractions. I have 3 - because I can see them, simple.

[Jin]

But here is what I don't understand jake.

Is that we PM you, and the PM details becomes the usernote so why must we show you the PM again in the format of a usernote?

That is like saying when we ban you and you have your reason and date/time it will expire we then allow you to view your Ban log.

[Immenseman]

But here is what I don't understand jake.

Is that we PM you, and the PM details becomes the usernote so why must we show you the PM again in the format of a usernote?

That is like saying when we ban you and you have your reason and date/time it will expire we then allow you to view your Ban log.

Being technical manager I'm sure you understand you can't keep all your PMs. When I resigned as staff I had to delete every single one. If they were shown on your User CP then you would see them on a regular basis.

I don't check my PMs every day because I no longer get or send them on a regular basis. However, if they were with infractions - I would see them and be reminded. This can be proven, like I have said. I have 23 user notes but 3 infractions. Why? Because I see my infractions on a daily basis.

Or you could just scrap the user note system and revert back to warnings/infractions. There will be no excuses for people getting banned. I'm bewildered as to why I was allowed to build up so many user notes without being informed. Sure I had PMs - but they didn't say user notes were added.

I assure you some new users don't even know the user notes system exists. That isn't good enough considering it is used to hand out negative sanctions on individual members.

[lick]

You will still break the rules if you saw them probley, only last night rosie removed 2 of your posts because they were rude...

Was that after or before you found out you had them :rolleyes:

[Robbie]

It's not used to hand out negative sanctions itself, it's to record the negative sanctions (PM's, warnings, infractions).

[Immenseman]

You will still break the rules if you saw them probley, only last night rosie removed 2 of your posts because they were rude...

Was that after or before you found out you had them :rolleyes:
Don't comment on things you don't know about. She also sent me and Jen a PM telling us although it was a private joke it was inappropriate. This is exactly why you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

You can get off your high horse too. You were banned earlier this week so don't try and degrade me because to be quite frank it isn't going to work when you post utter rubbish without even a vague understanding. I'd understand if it was about the moderation system because you wouldn't be alone. Nobody seems to understand how they work.

[Agnostic Bear]

You are not being banned will you PLEASE GIVE UP.

[Immenseman]

Since when have you cared about the forum?

On topic:

Hxf should just follow Something Awful in ban/warnings etc.

Have probations and bans, probations stop you posting for a certain amount of time, and bans obviously ban you. Also have all bans/probations public so people get the extra humiliation and are discouraged from doing it again.


No, it's not public and it's not hard enough.


You are not being banned will you PLEASE GIVE UP.

changed your tune ;)

[Hecktix]

Don't comment on things you don't know about. She also sent me and Jen a PM telling us although it was a private joke it was inappropriate. This is exactly why you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

You can get off your high horse too. You were banned earlier this week so don't try and degrade me because to be quite frank it isn't going to work when you post utter rubbish without even a vague understanding. I'd understand if it was about the moderation system because you wouldn't be alone. Nobody seems to understand how they work.

He learnt from his ban though, he hasn't put a foot out of line since.

[Jin]

Yeah you are right you will need to delete your PM's at some point but I really am struggling to comprehend the sort of mind someone must have that they must be able to view everything that they have done wrong in the past so they remember to never do it again.

Kind of contradictory as I am certain you did say you know the forum rules.

[Agnostic Bear]

changed your tune ;)

No I just think you're being an annoying git, give up and go about your business because the only people caring about whatever the hell is going on (i have no idea) is you.

[Immenseman]

He learnt from his ban though, he hasn't put a foot out of line since.

I haven't since I got the PM last night from Garion. Sure I might have had a user note adding but that was from a post before the PM.


Yeah you are right you will need to delete your PM's at some point but I really am struggling to comprehend the sort of mind someone must have that they must be able to view everything that they have done wrong in the past so they remember to never do it again.

Kind of contradictory as I am certain you did say you know the forum rules.
I do know the forum rules. However, if you read the point that followed the statement of me knowing the forum rules you wouldn't have any trouble. I really am struggling to comprehend the sort of mind someone must have if they remember what they want to as and when they wish.


No I just think you're being an annoying git, give up and go about your business because the only people caring about whatever the hell is going on (i have no idea) is you.

I know I'm right. Read through the read you'll realise that other people share the same opinion and aren't sure why user notes were re-implemented when they were discontinued. Someone else seeing what they want to see. Until someone produces a point that is flawless then I will continue to reply. HabboxForum is a forum, forums are to discuss. I am discussing. It's cute you have to resort to insulting me just because I'm right.

[Hecktix]

I haven't since I got the PM last night from Garion. Sure I might have had a user note adding but that was from a post before the PM.


I do know the forum rules. However, if you read the point that followed the statement of me knowing the forum rules you wouldn't have any trouble. I really am struggling to comprehend the sort of mind someone must have if they remember what they want to as and when they wish.

You make a fair point with your former comment, you have behaved since Garion spoke to you & yes your usernote is for a post from before the PM - why don't you keep it that way & you won't have any trouble will you.

May I add that at this point you still don't know what the usernotes are for and you have managed to behave not knowing what the usernotes say, therefore evidently you don't need to see your usernotes to behave, at the end of the day you need one thing to behave, and that's called a list of forum rules, which can be found here (http://www.habboxforum.com/faq.php?faq=rules_main#faq_rules_forum).

[Agnostic Bear]

I know I'm right. Read through the read you'll realise that other people share the same opinion and aren't sure why user notes were re-implemented when they were discontinued. Someone else seeing what they want to see. Until someone produces a point that is flawless then I will continue to reply. HabboxForum is a forum, forums are to discuss. I am discussing. It's cute you have to resort to insulting me just because I'm right.

You aren't discussing you are whining and if you keep whining someone is going to get bored and you will be banned and then you will be happy, no?

[Jin]

Yeah okay, well I have decided that this thread is going nowhere for the following reasons.



The thread starters understanding of usernotes is evidently not clear.
The constructive points put forward in this thread are either already in effect or hold no relevant purpose.
This thread seems more to be for personal gain as oppose to for the greater of the community.
All points in this thread have been addressed by a member of staff at least once and now we seem to be going around in circles.
This thread is becoming an argument.

As a result.

Thread Closed

I would have added a 6th reason probably along the lines of you being full of it and suffering from a serious case of the God complex but then I thought that there isn't a point you would probably take it as a complement and shortly it would be followed by some sort of MSN screen name comment.

:rolleyes:

[Nixt]

I haven't since I got the PM last night from Garion.

BANG! My PM (and usernote that I added after...) served it's purpose :).

Jin has effectively summarised my opinions here. Matt and I are also going to be revamping the Moderation Guide to ensure your Moderators provide the best possible service.